The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

Don, Andy ... I hate you!

By extending WinSPMBT from 2020 to 2025 you've created a lot of OOB work for us.

ALL this is currently tentative, but 90% probable (some of it is actually taking place now).

Marine Rifle Squad to be reorganized to 12-man, all armed with the M27.
3-man command element (Squad Leader, Assistant Squad Leader, Systems Operator [UAS "Quad Copter" UAV operator and Comm/FO specialist).
3x3-man Fire Teams (Team Leader, Automatic Rifleman, Grenadier) BUT with a 4th man still in the official TO&E making a squad 15-man, but this position will not normally be filled).
One member of each Squad will be a Designated Marksman with an M38 (an accurized M27).
Replace the M203 40mm GL with the M320.
Replace the M9 Beretta with the Sig Sauer MHS.

Elimination of the Infantry AT section (SMAW) in the Rifle Company.
Add a UAV Section to each Rifle Co.
Officially train the Company Forward Observers as Forward Air Controllers (they've been acting in that role for years).

Engineer Squad increased from 9 to 13-men.
Engineers to replace the SMAW with the MAAWS (Carl Gustaf).
Each Infantry Battalion to officially get an Engineer Platoon (they've been unofficialy attached for years), thus each Rifle Company will (unofficially) get an Engineer Squad with MAAWS to replace eliminated SMAWS (so they'll go from 6xSMAW to 3xMAAWS [or possibly 4-6]).

Replace the M40 Sniper Rifle (range 900m) with the Mk13 Mod 7 Long Range Sniper Rifle (.300 Winchester Magnum, range 1300m).

Increase number of Javelin ATGMs from 8 to 12 (all the new version with a 4750m range), crew to be armed with M4's, to be motorized with MRZR LTATVs.
Reduce TOWS from 8 to 4 (crew with M4's) with the intent to eventually eliminate the TOW completely.
Reduce the Bn 81mm Mortar Platoon from 8 to 6 tubes (crew to be armed with M4's), to be motorized with MRZR LTATVs.

Stand-up 5th Bn/10th Marines with HIMARS (in FY '23).

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

This is around for like a 2 months now. Looks like a switch to light infantry role - completely now. Less aggressive in firepower, more precise due to technology.

I still believe it will not hold :v

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

The USMC has always been "Light Infantry", just with heavy supporting assets in terms of helos/air. And when near the coast the fire support of whatever the US Navy has nearby.

They typically operate as quasi-autonomous mini-brigades built around an infantry battalion with a battery of artillery, a platoon of tanks, and a composite squadron of attack, observation, and transport helos and if truly operating independently a composite squadron of fixed wing aircraft. The big thing is they're highly mobile and much faster to mobilize then most US Army formations, and have built-in logistic and maintenance assets and typically carry apx. 90-days worth of supplies.

Certainly not "heavy" enough to take on fully armored/mech opposition offensively (they do OK defensively) but pretty competent vs most anything else.

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

As a follow-up here's the new USMC rifle squad TO&E.
https://www.overtdefense.com/2018/05...re-team-level/

NO OOB changes required Don!

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

And this is for FASTBOAT who may find it interesting (if a bit outdated):
https://www.aviation.marines.mil/Por...OIN%20PLAN.pdf

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

And just when we thought it was safe to get back in the water.

Seems field testing of the 12-man USMC rifle squad has run into some issues. No surprise, the 3-man fireteam was destined to have problems, one combat loss and the team loses 33% of it's effectiveness (probably 66% as a wounded man needs immediate treatment by his buddy for a couple minutes till a corpsman arrives).

So Headquarters Marine Corps is actually paying attention to the the professional infantry types and they're probably going to a 15-man squad.
1 x Squad Leader (Sgt)
1 x Assistant Squad Leader (Corp) Mostly to handle communications and position plotting
1 x Systems Operator (L/Cpl) To handle the squad drone and any other sensors the squad may be using
3 x 4-Man Fireteams
-- 1 x Team Leader (Cpl)
-- 1 x Automatic Rifleman (L/Cpl)
-- 1 x Rifleman M16 or DMR or MAAW as needed (PFC)
-- 1 x Grenadier M16+M302 (Pvt or PFC)

At this point NO CONCLUSIVE DECISION has made concerning the restructure, but the 15-man TO&E seems to be probable. Until a final decision is made no OOB changes are suggested.

(( If adopted this will require some serious rework when it comes to the passenger capacity of transports OR making a squad consist of 2 elements rather then one. ))

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

Well I'm bit "surprised" that USMC will use German-based weapons (>M27->HK416/M9->Sig Sauer)in future. Do USMC ever considered using Remington/Colt rifles? Are they too expensive or otherwise not suitable for USMC?

PS. Will M27 continue using ACOG or some other crosshair?

Warhero

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

Sorry I can't edit previous. I meant Do USMC ever considered using some another Remington/Colt or another US-based facturers' weapons?

Warhero

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

The German weapons are built in the US under license. Colt and the other US manufactors all get to throw their designs into the contests to pick the military weapons. If they don't meet the standards then they aren't picked.

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

The USMC really stresses accurate fire over volume of fire.

Aside from tradition there's a excellent reason for this. Unlike the US Army there's rarely a resupply vehicle nearby. What you're carrying is what you've got. Tho typically each Rifle Company has a jeep/HMMWV (perhaps with a trailer) carrying extra small arms ammo and a few 5gal cans of water. But generally resupply is a once a day (or less) affair. If the USMC expended ammo like the US Army they'd quickly run out. So accurate fire, and single shots, are the norm.

This brings us to the M27. The M249 was never a weapon the USMC liked, but it beat the M-16 (perhaps with a bipod) they'd been using since around 1969 as a team/squad automatic weapon. The M27 is basically a modern version of the venerable BAR of WW II fame. An M60/M240 is to heavy (as is it's ammo) for a team/squad weapon unless like the US Army you always have a resupply (and transport, they're a bit heavy to hump) vehicle nearby. There's nothing in the US inventory comparable to the M27, thus it was adopted.

Having used the M27 for a while, and not being to thrilled with the US Army's wholesale adoption of the M4 the USMC continued to use M16A2s and never fielded the M16A4 or M4 wholesale (they were used in combat zones but never fielded back home). It was determined the M27 was an excellent replacement for the M16A2/A4, better accuracy, more reliable, gets rid of the M16 gas system. Thus again the choice is what's avaliable in the US inventory or adopt the M27 wholesale.

As to the M9 and SIG, the USMC doesn't use a lot of handguns and many years ago the POWERS THAT BE at the pentagon intentionally let the M1911s be used, and unrebuilt until they were pieces of junk thus the adoption of the M9 as a replacement. After all the US Army is generally in charge of weapons procurement, and 15 shots vs 7 is ALWAYS better when your doctrine stresses volume over accuracy. So the M9/SIG are used because there's no other real alternative. but there are a lot of M1911s still in use unofficially. And almost any Marine that has the choice will take an M1911 any day (you only need to hit them once).

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

Okay that makes a bit more sense previous rendition they had reduced infantries AT capabilities. Not prudent as already lost the tanks so dealing with even light armour like IFV's could be a problem.

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

Not relevant to the game but interesting info nonetheless

https://www.guns.com/news/2021/01/05...o-field-30-000

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

Andy built a program to check differences between one version of an OOB and another to allow me to check some changes made and for giggles I thought I would compare what will be the next release USMC OOB with the one we issued with Ver1 of winSPMBT.

The results are attached for anyone interested in the work that goes into this. It is posted as an attachment because the list contains 23X more characters than is allowed for one post on Shrapnel and it's zipped because it's 12x bigger than the allowance for posting a TXT file!:eek:

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

USMC helo count at the end of each calendar year on 31 Dec. Useful to help build scenarios, because you'll have an idea of just how much of a certain type the USMC had.

From:
MARINES AND HELICOPTERS 1946 - 1962
By Lieutenant Colonel Eugene W. Rawlins, USMC
HISTORY AND MUSEUMS DIVISION HEADQUARTERS, U. S. MARINE CORPS WASHINGTON, D. C. -- 1976

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

Useful info for early date scenarios.

Most modern scenarios (late Vietnam to present day) should be based around an MEU which uses a composite helo squadron which is usually:
2x AH-1
3x UH-1
6x V-22
2x UH-53

Numbers will a bit depending on any expected missions.

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

It seems the 12-man squad was just a(nother) temporary blip in USMC unit organization.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8l38U5Gb34

The 15-man squad squad is the new norm.

The above vid give an excellent break down of what was done when and why.

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

Can the squad organization be broken down like it is for fireteams?

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

Easily.
The problem is the 10 unit limit in formations when it comes to motorized, mechanized, or heloborne forces.

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

......and that's where " creativity" comes into play

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

Yet more (irrelevant to WinSPMBT) craziness.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...S_launcher.jpg

I'm not the current Commandant but I fail to see how tailoring the USMC to one specific mission profile, island defense, is beneficial in the long run.

MANY have claimed the USMC has become a second (and much smaller) US Army. While they do use a lot of the same equipment (after all that's whats available/affordable) the overall emphasis the USMC places on transportability (particularly via water) has become more and more of an issue. The US Army designs it equipment/formations around what's needed to accomplish a specific mission profile, airborne, mountain, heloborne, armor, etc. but pay little to no attention to how the units/equipment will get to the fight. The US has a large ocean to cross to get anywhere (other then Canada/Mexico). It takes them months to get into the where they're needed (WWI war declared 6 Apr 1917 significant units arrive in Europe Oct 1917; WW2 7 Dec 1941 operation Torch Nov 1942; Korea invaded 25 Jun 1950 Inchon landing Sep 1950; Desert Shield/Storm Kuwait invaded 2 Aug 1990 liberated 24-28 Feb 1991).

The current USMC Commandant seems to assume little to no opposition to the deployment of his Littoral Regiments. And when the Divisions get to the battle they'll have zero armored support (rather useful for dealing with fortifications and defensive positions) and less artillery (fine IF you're near the coast AND the US Navy is nearby).

:confused: :doh:

I fully expect the next Commandant (or the one after) to reverse this trend.

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

I'm sure they have a plan so cunning "you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel"

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

I'm in the process of updating the USMC OOB for 2023 and while creating formations I found myself thinking about an order given to the North Koreans/Chinese during the Korean War (1950-1953).

"Do not attack the First Marine Division. Leave the yellowlegs alone."

Why yellowlegs?
https://m.facebook.com/USMCMuseum/ph...6335298587880/

With weapons disbursed down to the Company level (as was common) a full-strength USMC Rifle Company had the following:

170ish: M1 Garand/M1 Carbine/M1 Thompson SMG
9: BAR
6: 30cal MMG
2: 30cal HMG
2: 50cal HMG
2: Bazooka
1: 75mm Recoilless
3: 60mm Mortar
4: 81mm Mortar (available from Battalion)
2: 4.2in Mortar (available from Battalion)
6: 105mm Howitzer (available from a Battery dedicated to Battalion)

I wouldn't want to attack this either! That's a lot of machineguns and indirect fire support for a "mere" company.

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

In the latest fit of lunacy from Washington DC (i.e. HQ USMC) they're talking about replacing 14 of it's 21 the 155mm batteries with HIMARS MRLs (leaving one (1) tube artillery battery per artillery battalion).

In the past 150 or so years there have been numerous incidents of friendly artillery being called in 100m, sometimes 50m, in front of defensive positions. This will be impossible with MRLs.

So they got rid of the tanks, no more armored close support vs fortified opposition. Now very little tube artillery, essentially no Final Protective Fires when on the defense.

To quote one article by a number of full bird colonels:
"To buy into these reforms, one must conclude that: rockets and missiles can replace cannon artillery and that direct support artillery in the close fight is no longer required. This flawed logic draws the inevitable conclusion that Marine infantry no longer serves in its traditional role: to locate, close with and destroy the enemy in combat."

It seems USMC leadership has been replaced by US Air Force leadership.
Push-button warfare not boots on the ground supported by everything else in the inventory.

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

Aren't you glad your retired?

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

Speaking of the USMC, I just read that they are getting rid of the Scout Snipers.

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

For my "MARINE BUDDY" you're NOT going to like some of these fielding dates especially on the AMPHIB side of 2028.

This is the latest and greatest. What we all have to remember is this is the CORPS PLAN 2030 and NOT our Plan 2025/2026 Campaign.

Based on the following, the next update should be around MAY/JUNE timeframe. NOTE this provides for PREVIOUS updates as well.

Covers UNIT formations etc. You get the "full package" in here.

Fear not the "Click"!

Maybe we should leave the FEP's in until DEC 2025 just to piss the CORPS off!?! :p Alright maybe not! :D

I don't want a "BEARCAT" appearing in my driveway. :shock:
https://www.marines.mil/Force-Design-2030/

Now I'm going to bed for real.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

EDIT:
Suhiir,
Pursuant to our PM, I forgot about this system MADIS ...
"Full Operational Capability (FOC) is planned for 2025"

TRACK TRACK TRACK my friend!!
https://missiledefenseadvocacy.org/d...-system-madis/

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

Hmmm, let’s take one the most elite shock troops the US has, take away their tanks, artillery and snipers so they can be ready to fight ChinA. Sounds like defeat from within…

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

Some of this sounds as if it is < a word now unfortunately used far too much..... ) "Disinformation"

Let the "other side" think you have got rid of tanks get rid of most of the gun arty now get rid of the snipers.

If you wanted < unamed nation is Asia > to think you had lost your mind and were gutting your only fast reaction force this would be the way to do it but why that would be done makes no sense. BUT-----There is no benefit in looking weak and confused about your function

The only reason I can think of < and I'm not an "expert"> is that the accuracy of the Himars rockets HAS improved to the extent that very close support is possible and these changes are being made in anticipation of systems in the works now that are not common knowledge. Though why USMC would get rid of Scout Snipers makes NO sense at all

And yeah it sounds like the only possible principal opponent is re-organizing their principal opponent

This may all fit a positive master plan but I for one cannot see what it is unless lowering morale is the goal

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

I hope your right DRG, and its "just my imagination running away with me"...

https://youtu.be/qH3oVVtw4b4

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

:D yep

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

And even more glad I did so when I did.

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

Can you please give me a link to where you saw that?
I haven't seen anything on the subject.

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

What I've been doing is incorporating changes that ARE being implemented before the 2025 end-date for WinSPMBT and more-or-less ignoring what's planned in 2026 and beyond.

I STRONGLY suspect a good number of the currently planned changes will not be implemented when someone with more common sense then Berger is appointed as Commandant. He's way too focused on a single scenario, the South China Sea, and ignoring every other situation the USMC WILL confront in coming years.

I saw the stuff on the MADIS system but can't think of a way to implement (or in-game need) a dedicated anti-drone system.

One system I do expect to see (partially) implemented before the 2025 drop-dead date is:
https://sgp.fas.org/crs/weapons/IF11831.pdf

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

First the ARV the Marines just received the FIRST Prototype just this past January per your ref. (Second Photo down on the right caption.).

How long for ACV? It might have maybe have reached IOC and according to the ref I dropped last night, no AMPHIBS until 2028

Could be a real issue for us anyway date wise for the both of them.

Concerning the Scout Sniper issue the first is about "creating space" for them by cutting 3 weeks off the Recon Sniper course. Note the dates of these refs.
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/new...sniper-course/

The next in representative of several on the web at this time.
The scout sniper platoons were introduced in 1943 during World War II. "The first steps away from dedicated scout sniper platoons began in 2020, but the Marine Corps this week directed the full transition to happen immediately, Bruce said."
https://www.stripes.com/branches/mar...s-9308951.html

"All three training locations for the grueling 3-month Scout Sniper course at Camp Pendleton, California; Camp Lejeune, North Carolina; and Marine Corps Base Quantico, Virginia, will stop admitting new students starting in fiscal 2024 (Oct 2023.) , according to the message."

"Precision rifle capability (Designated Marksman.) will remain within the infantry company, and the Marine Corps will continue to maintain school-trained snipers within Marine Reconnaissance and Marine Special Operations units," said service spokesman Capt. Ryan Bruce."

"It's not the first time the Corps has dropped the scout snipers.

The Marine Corps previously canned the program after World War I, World War II and Vietnam, anticipating that future warfare wouldn't require snipers."
https://www.military.com/daily-news/...-platoons.html

Refs are saying this information was apparently "leaked" before the CORPS could make their official announcement. I guess Capt. Bruce has been tasked to address the issue, must be a PAO.

Back at it later today so Good Night!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

"future warfare wouldn't require snipers." ??
:doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::eek:

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

Leave it to a Jar Head to say something stupid like that. lol

We love our gyrines, but sometimes you have to take away there box of crayons and give them a peanut butter box instead lol

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

As I mentioned in an earlier post.
Someone is FAR to enamored with "push button" warfare.
I really don't expect many of the recent changes to last when the current Commandant retires/is replaced.

I'm sure all this gee-wiz tech stuff is very popular with the know-nothing bureaucrats currently in charge in Disneyland East (i.e. Washington D.C.). Besides, think of all the money the contractors will make ... and donate to our (re)election campaign!

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/new...ry-battalions/

Here you go

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

Thank you!

Looks like it's just re-tasking the "Scout/Sniper" to just "Scout".
Many of the same skills are used by both scouts and snipers. This is a major reason the Scout/Sniper platoons were implemented in the first place.
But I suppose not training scouts as snipers will save a couple bucks. :re:

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

A little something to look forward to in the 2023 update.

Iwo Jima Again?

Date: Febuary 16, 2023

A surface-to-air missile from Fiery Cross reef (called Yougshu by the PRC) downed a US survellience aircraft. The PRC claims it was an accidental firing during a training excercise. No one believes them.

The US is landing troops on the reef in order to "secure evidence" and "detain witnesses". The US has requested a formal investigation by the UN and claims all PRC citizens will be returned to the mainland once the investigation has concluded.

Will the PRC fight?
Will this mean war?
Will it go nuclear?

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

I had intended to write an "on one hand / on the other hand" about this today but this makes that unnecessary

however...... IT MAY BE that "studies" have shown that fully trained "Scout/Snipers" was not working out and though many of the same skills were required it was better to have specialists in scouting and sniping rather than highly trained " generalists" that are expected to do both jobs equally well and <SPECULATION> it was found that they were being used as one or the other based on their strengths in both disciplines <END SPECULATION>

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

Roll the dice and see if you get snakeyes or box cars......

This is not the first time in world history that a conflict in one part of the globe is viewed as an "opportunity" to another part of the globe

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

I hadn't been aware the USMC is divesting itself of integral law enforcement capability (i.e. Military Police).

As a former MP (and Watch Commander, i.e. I was the one in charge of everything during a shift) I have mixed feelings. Duh.

Traditionally USMC MPs did mostly gate and traffic duty during peacetime with a small "detective" unit (CID) to handle investigations of rapes, murders, etc. In wartime they do mostly traffic control, forward POW collection/control until they are shipped to a real POW camp, and work VERY closely with Civil Affairs dealing with indigenous civilians (Civil Affairs doesn't begin to have the manpower needed). Unlike the US Army USMC MPs do not do route recon, convoy security, or much rear-area counter guerilla work (other then as a immediate fast reaction force to an incident since we're fully motorized and have our vehicles on hand not in a motor pool).

The gate guarding, passing out speeding tickets, and detective work can certainly be easily done by civilian security contractors. But that's what USMC MPs do when not training for their wartime tasks.

I guess the "Powers That Be" assume with electronic information dissemination traffic control is unnecessary as everyone always knows where they are and are going (as during Desert Storm when we had GPS ... which didn't work much of the time and most stuff was still good old map and compass). POW handling? Guess we'll just have to task a combat unit to that ... reducing the available combat strength on the front lines. Dealing with the local civilians ... Civil Affairs will just need another combat unit (with zero training/experience in what they're going to do) further reducing the combat strength on the front lines.

Each USMC Division has (had?) one MP company (vice the US Army Corps level MP Brigades, i.e. a battalion+ per division). But I guess apx. 600 former MPs (the entire number of MPs in the USMC) will be more useful elsewhere.:re:

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

Army MPs doing convoy security and counter guerrilla work? On what planet was this and when? I never saw them doing ANYTHING in Iraq or Afghanistan but writing tickets and crying about being there. If they went out the wire it certainly wasn't after the fist push into either country. Saw them try reall damn hard to give us speeding tickets as QRF on Liberty many times and they got mad when our get out jail card trumped their power trips.

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

You and I both know official doctrine and reality tend to have a way of being not quite the same.

Besides given the situation in Afghanistan (i.e. IEDs) I don't think their peacetime training was really adequate to the situation. And the whole thing was a counter guerrilla so ...

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

Pretty nice vid of what it's like to be attacked by the USMC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uhYpqGpnkU

Note the lack of armor, number of helos and the height that fly at.

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

YAY!

Some info on the USMC ground launched anti-ship missile.
NOT THAT THIS IS RELEVANT TO WinSPMBT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef8sQhKiYzs

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

Gee....... Ya think maybe this is something that would interest Taiwan?

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

I'd be VERY surprised if they didn't already have a number of anti-ship missiles of some sort already. But more, newer, better? What's not to like!

Re: The USMC will drive you crazy !!!
 

Well now it seems the USMC MAY go back to the 13-man squad.
Squad Leader, Assistant Squad Leader (and presumably drone operator), 2x4-man and 1x3-man fire teams.
But don't hold your breath on this. It was 13-man 1944-1961, 14-man 1962-1970, 13-man 1970-2019, 12-man 2020, 15-man 2021-Present.
But until they settle on and officially announce this there's no point implementing this in WinSPMBT.