A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

Hi everyone,

I played Steel Panthers 2 for years and years. I played dozens of battles and two or three 30-or-so-battle campaigns. A few days ago, I installed SPMBT and started a campaign, and since I am a huge Steel Panthers 2 fan, I wanted to share some thoughts.

First of all, I find the infantry very difficult to kill. In SP2, shooting at infantry with a machine gun in an open area was very lethal. Now, I can spend rounds shooting at infantry in the open, and what usually happens is that the targets just shoot and kill my machine gun. Now I get better results with snipers and artillery. The artillery is not very effective, but it routs the infantry. I have read the manual, and it reminds the players that the distances are quite long since the squares are 50 yards. I think that is acceptable. However, it is difficult to get that Normandy beach feeling when the enemy soldiers are able to just walk over to my machine gun nests in a completely open area.

I have a bad headache today and I am not in the best of mood, because yesterday I grinded a 72-round battle in which I killed 1300 enemy soldiers. Including my own casualties, that means that there were around 1600 soldiers killed in less and 2½ or 4 hours of gametime. And it was a draw. The battle took me the whole day, because I was waiting for the game to end since the 40th round. I ran out of all ammunition, and I had to reammo my tanks and snipers, and I lost all my infantry, because there were enemy infantry almost everywhere. I just had to grind and grind and grind. It was not enjoyable, and I do not know if I want to continue the campaign to face another swarm of hundreds of soldiers followed by more soldiers while I spend a couple dozens of rounds to shoot some of them, then leave to get more ammo, then go back and shoot at enemy. Sometimes with no effect.

What I enjoyed in Steel Panthers 2 was that the modern battlefield is a deadly place. Now, the infantry is able to walk through machinegun fire with very minimal losses as long as they keep a cool head.

Sorry for ranting, but I seriously have a headache.

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

Thank goodness there's that magic button:

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1658239374

Nobody should think the Preferences Screen's settings are set in stone. Some guy even reduced those settings to simulate various seasonal/climate/day/night/rain/scorching-sun conditions.

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

Thank you, RightDeve. I am curious: Are those the percentages that you use in your games?

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

Hello. Infantry are hard to hammer with machine guns when they move slowly. Machine guns must fire from a distance greater than 10 or 12 hexes, depending on the range of enemy weapons.
Artillery is effective when guided by a spotter.

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

Most of my experienced Merkava IV tanks spent all their machine gun ammo and explosive rounds firing direct fire upon infantry and that had very little effect. Imagine shooting all the ammo that a modern quality tank has at common grunts in packed formations, in the desert, and seeing that it was pretty useless.

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

The Merkavas are deadly. It would be necessary to see the conditions of the terrain, against which infantry was faced, distance.

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

Open, and I mean open, desert. Visibility 34. Palestinian Al Aqsa Group (more) and Militia Support (less). Distance was 400-500 yards, sometimes more, sometimes less. If I had known that there would be
ca. 2000 enemy soldiers, I would have been more stringent with the ammo use in the early rounds. The Merkavas were mostly sitting there shooting, shooting, shooting the open targets. In many cases, the targets were dug in, but having them run in the open did not chance the situation that much. The Merkavas were killing 0-2 men when they were dug in and 1-4 men per round when they were casually walking around. I can put a saved game here if you wish.

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

Al Aqsa commandos have 7 morale. That is why perhaps they advance despite the losses.
To finish off the infantry, perhaps it would have been good to have some machine guns, and with a Merkava platoon leader who has a radio to direct the artillery.
If you want you can share the file out of curiosity.

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

Please find the saved game attached. It is the 4th turn. I can send a later turn if you wish. Please note that I did not want to attach a .zip file, but the game files (.cmt and .dat) were not "valid file extensions" as per the forum's requirements.

I would love to hear your thoughts.

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

Someobservations from the saved game

1) Your map is gigantic for your force size!

2) Your force is not concentrated at one breakthrough point. You have split up into 2 little task forces it looks like, not within mutual supporting distance of each other.

3) Your enemy is the PLO which has no tanks or other long range A/T weaponry. Its a pure grunt force. And your force is not structured against grunts, its an anti-armour team.
- you have lots of dragon ATGM, expensive and of little use on an infantry opponent
- you have stingers, against an army with no air farce!
- your tank is the merkava M4M-, so no expensive LAHAT ATGM, but only 23 HEAT rounds. HEAT is half as effective as HE on grunts and may have a smaller or no blast radius.There is a Merk 4 variant with 24 HE, a few HEAT, and some Sabot which is a better prospect against irregular infantry and its 80 or so points cheaper per unit.
- Your core infantry seem to be paras, expensive...
- You have some spike NLOS launchers at 500 points a pop. If you were fighting one of the Arab armies with tanks, maybe worthwhile, but each of those means the PLO gets to buy about a company of its infantry. (as with each merkava..)
- Lots of large calibre arty which will create cover with shell craters for any surviving enemy in the beaten zone

I would suggest:
- Cut your map size down to something sensible for a company team/battalion(-) sized force. The regular 100x80 default map would do fine.
- I would structure on a company of mech inf + a platoon of the Merkava 4 that comes with the 24 HE rounds as my company team. Any dragon teams, I would convert to something else at the first opportunity, if there is no way of avoiding them. Dragon is not much good as short ranged. Perhaps convert some to TOW and attatch to the co HQ with an ammo truck and spare APC to cary them, assuming you are fighting other amies than PLO?. If only fighting the PLO - drop all ATGM, SAM, and NLOS ATGMs as high cost for no benefit.
- Its an assault. Against an army of light infantry with no signifigant long ranged anti-tank weaponry. (Might have the odd ATGM?). So you fight these the old fashioned way:

A) Concentrate your force in one breakthrough force at one point, probably smack in the middle of the map and plan to exploit out of the breach North and South after reaching the minefield (if found). Fuller's Plan 1919 and expanding torrent and all that.
B) Your artillery should be based on the 105mm and mortars as cheaper and also they dont crater the ground. Suppression is the main effect we are looking for here!
C) Plot your artillery on the breakthrough point. Plan on blowing a hole about 10-15 hexes wide. Plaster that area and 10 hexes deep with all the laight arty you have as you approach the breakthrough point. By the time your lead scouts get to the beaten zone, there should be plenty of enemy grunts running or stunned to mop up.
D) once your scouts are at your back edge of the beaten zone, start shifting it up the 3 hexes that causes only a .3 delay and your point force then follows the scouts through the barrage beaten zone.
E) As you move through the beaten zone that your artillery "lawnmower" has worked over, deal with random enemy forces and any mines found.
F) If/when you find mines, then use dismounted engineers that have followed your point troops in cheap APCs to clear.
You have bought bulldozers (slow!) and enigineer tanks (expensive!). Foot sappers are way cheaper, and basic M113s are also cheap. The artillery concentration will have produced enough dust to cover their deployment. At a pinch, you can move plain grunts into the mine hexes rater than bother with any engineers (I usually dont bother buying engineeers at all).
G) Once through the crust of the pie (the main enemy mine field(s) if any) - move out in an expanding torrent North and South and clear the objectives. Plan 1919 and all that.

Basically you have loads of mega-expensive toys costing 500 points a pop which are not contributing to anything as these are anti-armour assets and the enemy is a guerilla horde. You also were spread out into a couple of penny packets. That may have worked if it was the Egyptians or Syrians as they will buy tanks, PLO - not so much, and every 500 point toy is a company of defenders extra to them!

I had a look at your plotted arty and it seemed to be spread about pepper-potting random hexes deep in the enemy rear. As stated above - concentrate your artillery at the planned breakthrough point and "mow the lawn" with your troops following the creeping barrage. The PLO has no real ability to "snipe" the edges of your armoured phalanx from the sides with tank or ATGM fires. The Syrians or Egyptians maybe, so use smoke at the sides of the barrage for those nations.

If you do locate any PLO mortars your spike NLOS should be able to deal with those - but its a very expensive way to do counterbattery...

As to your problems with enemy infantry...

- As soon as you spot that there is enemy infantry somewhere, plot a lot of mortars etc on them as you move to deal with them
- Biff them up with tank HE and APC MG fires as and when spotted. See above - you chose the wrong merkava. (Also since the enemy has no real long range AT assets, you can park an ammo M113 by each tank if outside of RPG range so your low HE/HEAT count is no longer a problem).
- It was a stupendously large map, and the enemy was a grunt based force, yet though you had lots of dragons, stingers etc, I dont reccolect many machine gun teams. On a flat map like the save game, then take proper MMG/HMG (50 cal HMG teams are longer ranged) and move those up in cheap halftracks to just outside of LMG range. At least a couple per company team. Use to hose down the spotted enemy grunts from far away. MMG/LMG teams have a blast circle remember, so pay attention to any clumps of enemy grunts that are adjacent and the machine guns will "spread the joy" to thier neighbours.

- also you should concentrate on neutralising any enemy infantry that is spotted with your long range anti-infantry weaponry rather then going for destruction. Dug in infantry is not easy to destroy by fires. Unless you get to 1 hex range and shoot him in the face!. Fire at a section, then once you have gotten it to retreat status, move onto the next one and give it some of the good news. The more subordinates that are in a bad morale state, the less likely the AI will be able to rally them. Neutralised infantry wont be contributing to the battle. Dug in infantry may stay in thier trenches while your troops are far away, but will eventually run when you get close - or simply dismount a loaded APC beside a stunned (in rtreat or worse status) squad and have the dismounts shoot them from 1 hex away. Any enemy that are running away outside thier trenches will be cut to pieces by your barrage, or your MMG teams, tanks etc.

- I wouldnt bother dismounting as a reaction to fire from enemy grunts. As long as you are outside effective RPG range (and they dont have to many rounds in any case!) - stay mounted and use the APCs weapons. An APC with mounted grunts spots reasonably well anyway as long as it does not move too far (3-4 hexes a move perhaps). Firefights take time, so find the dug in grunt, splatter him with direct and indirec fires, then move up the APC when he is in retreat or worse state and fire from close range, but be ready to instantly back away or pop smoke if an unspotted enemy takes a pop at your loaded APC!. Israel has plenty of not too expensive APCs with several MGs etc, the really expensive ones with thermal sights (+cost!) may be useful in moderation (e.g used for the point of your spearhead only).

But basically you should try not to ever trade rifle fire with dug in infantry if your lads are out in the open.

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

Oh yes - one last thing

I could not find any artillery observer whatsoever!

Its always the first thing I buy after the HQ in any force, especially in a campaign core.

As B0, its easy to find on the HQ menus as it is right there after the HQ, so no searching throuigh the orbat to find him.

As a core element it gains experience over time so leading to quicker calls for fires.

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

Thank you very much for the expert advice, Mobhack. I have an explanation for each of the points that you have raised, but instead of explanations, I will just humbly thank you.

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

Nothing to add. Thanks for the tips.

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

To illustrate what Andy said I fired up a quick and dirty little Israel Jan-Dec 1982 CG.

Like so:
https://i.imgur.com/YrCkVWS.png

I made the map small (80x80) which is a good size for 1-3 companies (or a battalion).

And I purchased this reinforced company:
https://i.imgur.com/HfV9DW1.png

After reattaching the tank platoon and other assets:
https://i.imgur.com/GE9c2cI.png

Initial deployment:
https://i.imgur.com/kPBNzu6.jpg

Pressed the wrong key! Re-deployed:
https://i.imgur.com/eANSajV.png

Note that there is one more group of VH off to the northeast, but its in a stream and swamp, these first two should be easy enough to snag and then setup a kill zone to kill the PLO, after that is done I can move towards the NE.

Then you move out slowly and engage.

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

The main point is the 1 hex shot at stunned enemy dug-in infantry.

Dug-in infantry won't pull back (usually) like those hit in the open in other battle types, but they do pull back even if dug-in from fire delivered at 1 hex.

Now, if routed and they know that enemy are near (say 3-5 hexes) then some may well retreat out of the trenches instead of simply cowering in the trench if retreat status or worse. But that is a random effect, and so take any that do so as a bonus. Closing to 1 hex and hitting from there is a definite way to eject them from the trench, unless you miss of course..

The fire from 1 hex can be from any unit, a tank say, but generally its best to move up an APC and dismount the grunts to do the close combat job rather than risk a merkava finding an unspotted unit that is still somewhat "frisky" and assaults it or puts an RPG up its kilt. The dismounting grunts may(ie will..:rolleyes:) attract fire - if so then remaount if necessary, and deal with the frisky new discovery (you did remember to have several tanks with thermal sights and shots left overwatching the dismounting APC, didn't you? ;))

Stunning them takes preparation - using both indirect and direct fires. Simply beat them up till when you hover the mouse over the unit (and any others you spotted nearby, naturally!) are in "retreat" state or worse.

To stun them it is best to find them first.

I often recce through my artillery beaten zone using cheap expendable units - like motorcycle scouts. These can zip merrily about through the barraged zone detecting any neutralised enemy units and with luck make it back to the friendly side (so next turns arty rounds wont kill it). If someone takes a potshot then that is extra info for you, as is if they trip a mine. If planning on using that tactic, buy a fair few...

In WW2 games as a Soviet player then a few cavalry scouts can find the enemy MG positions for you. As do motorcyclists. They may actually survive, even if badly chopped up and routing off your map edge. Jeeps also atttract fire, but tend not to survive the experience so well. Other than that - an el-cheapo scout car like a Ferret or an armoured HMMMV can be used to scout through the beaten zones. The HMMV can have a scout team as passenger so it detects the enemy better.

If none of these are to hand then you can dismount an infantry unit some ways in front of the suspected enemy position and see if he takes the bait and fires at them. Hopefully if shot at then they wont be put into retreat and can remount the APC.

And of course if you have an air strike point then buy a little RPAS drone to do the recce, I think those are in the scout helo section. Cheep and cheerful, and any AA fires at them are more info to chew over for you.

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

I thimk that I will make a CS tank company and platoon for Israel for the next releaes, together with some appropriate tanks with an emphasis n the HE ammo. These wil lbe cheaper, but better suited to any game against light-inffantry emphasis foes (HAMAS, Lebanese factions etc).

In the meantime - have a look at the engineering or mineclearing tanks if in that situation since these tend to have more HE or HEAT (less efeective than HE but still goes bang, unlike sabot!)

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

I would like to delete the two previous messages but I can't. The edit button doesn't work.
The problem is that I could not properly attach the images.

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

The edit button works fine when you double/triple click on it. One click has never worked. I normally give it four quick clicks

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

There are some awesome tips in this thread (even for a SP Vet), thanks!

Is there a suggested map size per point total anywhere? I often wonder if I'm using maps that are too big or too small for my force sizes...

Thanks again!

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

Map size isnt really relatable to just simple points values.

It's more about technology - big maps arent good if you are a walking army, even if you give yourself 80 turns. An APC based army has less problems with distance. An army based on Churchill nfantry tanks would have the same problem with vast open plains as the footsloggers.

And especially in MBT, as you progrees through the decades, your basic kit (tanks and APC etc) costs rise noticeably, so a 2000 point 1950 army would be far larger numbers-wise than a 2020 2000 point army. 2000 Points in 1950 may well get you a batallion and in 2020 maybe a leg rifle company team.

I use an 80x80 map for WW2 since my grunts march.

I use the default map size for MBT, and fight about a battalion sized task force.

There is also the factor of weapons reach - modern MBT can engage at distances a WW2 tank cannot dream of. So an 80x80 map might seem to be the choice if your force is walking, but if they are supported by a platoon of MBT, and/or the opponent has them then maybe it would be a bit point blank.

So - "how long is a piece of string" is the question you are really asking here:rolleyes:!.

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

Fair enough lol. I will stick with my general guesstimations ;)

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

If you hover your cursor over the Edit button now you will see.....

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1658920041

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

Thanks. The problem now is that the edit button disappeared.
Another query. How do I add an image to a post to make it look bigger?

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

Personally I used an online free system called Imgur and take a screen shot in normal game mode and then save it up there and used the bbcode option I think to put a link here like so:

https://i.imgur.com/GXiR7Cs.jpg

Here is the bbcode option:

https://i.imgur.com/0Rec04P.png

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

Cool. Thank you

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

????????????

Not on any screen I have viewed.....

Everything looks perfectly normal ( and I used the Edit button to compose this post )

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1658962388

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

I don't see the edit buttons on those two posts. In the other yes.
https://i.imgur.com/FiTWosp.png

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

The edit button only remains available for a limited time for each post (around 20 mins I think) this is standard for most forums

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

That's what I thought that's why I saw other old posts and the button is there.
Maybe when I hit the button just once something happened.....

https://i.imgur.com/iOtW0wt.png

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

Ah !..... as a moderator I see and have access to things you don't but I've had them available for so long that I forget that others don't. I always have Edit available

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

Okay. As a moderator, will you be able to delete those posts that do not contribute anything?:)

Re: A new player wants to share some of his thoughts
 

Done