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Recycle Old Threads Drive Canceled!
I have decided to buy a new 'space game' and wanted some input on wether to buy Galactic Civ or MOO 3. Or possibly some other game I've never heard of. (YES, I HAVE SEIV Gold)
So what do you gamers like better? [ June 01, 2003, 04:01: Message edited by: Taz-in-Space ] |
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As it stands, Galactic Civ is far superior, but will still pale next to SEIV.
However MoO3 can still be the next big thing...just not right now. However, if you read their forums, the list of things they have put in the badly needed patch are exactly what they needed to do for a great game. I think they've done 140 odd fixes at this point, and they're almost halfway finished with the patch. Just get all of them like I did http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
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Easy, take GalCiv. It's much better then MOO3 (as if this would be hard...).
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Depends. If you are speaking about the SE4 PBW game Master of Orion 3 then it rocks before anything else.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif If you speak about the sorry excuse that is sold as MOO3 brand, then run for galciv. |
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if you love pushing next turn, wading throught vast amounts of useless site rep information, and have horrible diplomatic communications... buy Moo3!!!
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GalCiv is hardly comparable to SE4 or MOO3; it is not in the same genre. SE4 and MOO3 are 4X games, GalCiv is a Civilization-type game. Direct comparisons between them don't work very well (either way).
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If not, please define 4X in a way Civ would not be included. |
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IMO, one of the major aspects of a 4X game is critical design decisions. Civ-type games do not have these. You research tech, and your units are always the same. Maybe I mean Space Opera and not just 4X in general...
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There is no X in ship design http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
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So? That is irrelevant. There is more to a 4X game than just the X's...
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Real time combat?
Combat in almost any form would do... Besides, Fyron is one of the people who understand the difference between continuous combat simulation (good realtime), and literal "realtime" clickfest combat (bad realtime). [ April 15, 2003, 21:27: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ] |
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Yeah, what SJ said. A game doesn't have to have real time combat to be 4X. SE4 is a 4X game. Do you see real time combat in it? Cause I certainly don't.
Of course, that was probably some lame attempt at sarcastic humor, but I'll just pretend it wasn't, for both our sakes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif |
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By any general standard, GalCiv and other Civ-games are 4X games. They may not have as much micromanagement as SE or MOO, but they are still 4X games. But the 4X genre is large enough to have big differences in them.
[ April 15, 2003, 21:43: Message edited by: Lemmy ] |
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With respect to the question of Gal Civ vs. Moo3, I just have one simple comment to make about MOO3:
They designed the game so that the real time combats go until they are finished or until 10 minutes have passed--whichever comes first. Let me just say that I had a TON of combats where they had to run the full TEN minutes. Lots and lots of people will tell you many, many things about MOO3. I can't tell you yes or not on any of them. I found myself rebooting my computer to get out of MOO3 rather than wait 10 tedious minutes while two ships that couldn't hurt each other circled the screen staring at each other. Until the developers make the 'General Retreat' work better or create some sort of acceleration feature, I would stay far, far away from MOO3. |
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MOO3 is not comparable to SE4 or even MOO2. It is a sim-type game. If you have fun playing SimCity or stuff like that, play SimGalaxy = MOO3. If you are looking for a game where your actions have a significant influence on gameplay, where you are able to estimate what actions have what results, and where you want to be able to try out something even it it is considered a stupid mistake by the AI (but just may be a genius strategy not foreseen by the designers limited minds), FORGET MOO3. Well, someone will say "it's not a micromanagement game, its all about macromanagement" - nonsense. The most basic tools and overviews for macromanagement are missing. You have some very basic features to vaguely direct the AI, and most of your orders there aren't even taken into account if you do not correct them by manually micromanaging - and this is painful, because the game has been designed by haters of management of any kind. Normal playstyle: you watch, the AI does. Period. Enjoy your sitrep, press next turn. On the other hand, if you enjoy watching the unfolding of a galactic empire, enjoy being able to look at the tinest detail of the whole economy even if you do not want to influence it, then MOO3 is definitely your game. Just do not expect a space strategy game. |
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I will restate my comment, since the terms I have used have caused people to go off on irrelevant (to my point) tangents:
SE4, MOO3 and GalCiv are not games of the same class. Direct comparisons between them do not work because they are all different types of games. You wouldn't compare SE4 to Half-Life, would you? |
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They are of the same GENRE...
eXplore eXpand eXploit eXterminate |
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Roanon: MOO3 has the potential for critical design decisions, they just have to let you take it out of empire simulation mode. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif GalCiv, on the other hand, does not have that potential. Its units are static, noncustomizable. [ April 16, 2003, 01:25: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
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Too bad they didn't hire you and me do the final design http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif |
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WMG in half-life.
[ April 16, 2003, 05:47: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ] |
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Thanks guys! I take it the consensus is to buy Galciv and wait until the patches are out for MOO3 to see if it can be retro-engineered into a good game.
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A peaceloving race will have much weaker units then a warlike race, even with the same units. You can build starbases to enhance your units or increase production in a sector. There are plenty of critical decisions in GalCiv, and unlike in other games, these decisions can come back to haunt you on the long term....*looks at the time*....gotta go now...maybe more later. |
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I want to show you something that I feel is a very accurate dipiction of how people rate games. (How I also rated them)
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newup...1050478245.bmp Masters Of Orion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newup...1050478293.bmp Galactic Civilizations http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newup...1050478372.bmp Space Empires IV Nuff Said. [ April 16, 2003, 08:36: Message edited by: Atrocities ] |
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Taz,
Back to the original question... if you don't already have it I would suggest getting "Stars!". Granted, it is a rather old game and she ain't the prettiest girl at the dance, but it is quite sweet. It also has several options that aren't available in SEIV, like orbital colonies and stargates (warp-point openers just aren't the same). It can be quite soothing to finally do something that you have spent the Last few months (unsuccessfully) trying to mod. |
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I agree with Imperator Fyron. In my opinion, for you to say that you can design your own ships in Gal Civ, you would need to be able to pick and choose offensive power, defensive power, speed, hit points, sensor range etc. You just can't do that. Also, you would need to have different weapons that might do approximately the same damage but have different graphical effects and sounds. You would need weapons that have different firing rates, different ranges, etc, etc.
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I bought MOO3 and a week later I bought SE4 and have never looked back. SE4 is the game I've always wanted. GalCiv is next on my purchase list. I promise to pay more attention to reviews this time and not buy something just because it's predecessors were good. Moo 3 maps is beautiful but MOO3 needs a "fun" patch. GalCiv sounds a little more on the beer and pretzels side and also sounds fun but different. In other words save your money on MOO3!
Whatever happened to Stars:Supernova? Live Long and Conquer |
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Stars! SuperNova is pretty much dead. A shame.
They ran out of money and don't have a publisher to foot the bill to finish the game. It doesn't seem likely that anyone is going to buy into it either. Damn shame. [ April 16, 2003, 23:48: Message edited by: Cyrien ] |
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let's hope it doesn't stay dead forever.
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Another good review for GALCIV:
http://firingsquad.gamers.com/games/...ew/default.asp They Say: "GalCiv is easily the best 4X game right now and the best that we’ll see for years to come. " THEY HAVE NOT REVIEWED SE4!!! |
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I just might have to go out and buy GalCiv now.
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doesn't seem to have a demo, though.
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If you didn't like the Civilization series of games, you will not like GalCiv, as it is basically Civilization in space. Conversely, if you did like Civ, you should like GalCiv. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
And, of course, it has nothing on SE4 as the best 4X game. |
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Having played a few dozen hours of both the unpatched original Galactic Civilizations and the current patch, I must say that it is shaping up rather nicely. Within the Last few weeks of release, it's had two patches which have added many new things and tweaks which are nice. Even the original release is nice and playable...I finished two games on that alone with no issues. The promise of additional tweaks and patches and added support is always a good thing (as we all know http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).
Apparently there is a customization option available where you can add new ship designs and such, but I haven't looked into it yet. On their website (www.galciv.com), there are already several user-made events you can throw in there. There are a few things I miss in GalCiv that SEIV provides plenty of, such as ship design and combat. It is very strategic and simplified, with units attacking one-on-one (a stack of fighters will die against something bigger unless you have enough to whittle away at his hit points). Everything is streamlined and straightforward, including the interface, making it easy to access everything and anything you want with as few clicks as possible. On the surface, it doesn't seem very deep, and advancement of your two dozen or so statistics of your empire/race is strictly in new structures/abilities that affect percentages a few points at a time. Although by the end a Dreadnought may totally outclass those Defenders you had at the beginning, it doesn't bear as much impressiveness. It leaves a sort of ho-hum-it's-a-REALLY-upgraded-starfighter feeling. Mostly where it shines is in the AI. They're smart, efficient, and remember things. I was surprised when I got a message from a race groveling for peace, saying that they know they started the war, but didn't know I'd fight back so hard. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Diplomacy and trade is very well done, and they consider these things before invading your systems. There is a little bit more of tweaking and optimizing economic stats than I'd like, but it is also intuitive and eventually becomes second nature to keep yourself in the black. It was definitely worth my money, because it does have a lot of replayability. I have a few games going because it's interesting to see how the stats I chose and AI settings I have (they're increasing as I get better...I'm not good enough to play it on anything higher than 'normal' right now) affect the game. I agree with Fyron, though, SEIV is still better. For me, it's about the fact that when I go into battle, it's with MY ships that I handcrafted through the years that I'm kicking alien butt, and not some generic ships with my att/def/hp bonuses. SEIV lets you win your way, and GalCiv lets you win one of their 3 ways (although provides you with a very wild ride in the meantime). Sorry about the lack of MOOness...I'm not touching that one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif zen |
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Don't buy MOO3 till they release 2 patches. I'm a huge fan of both MOO1 and MOO2, and I even kinda like MOO3, but I haven't touched it after the first week it came out. There is a good game somewhere underneath the horrible UI, and I am sure a couple of patches will help me find it.
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Try Alpha Centauri by Sid Meier. ITs been around for a while, so you can prob pick it and its expansion up for pretty cheap. Its similiar to Civ games, but it has the important note that you still design the units... no prefab units, which is nice.
It also has an excellent political engine, and in my eye it is one of the greatest games ever made, and I also believe it would fit into the 4X genre... I strongly reccomend you atleast try it. Many a night was completly lost playing this game. |
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It's also relatively easy to modify (i said, relatively...) as it's data files are aldo in text format. I still lose a few weekends to it every so often. |
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I'm not sure I'd put SMAC in the 4x genre (just one planet), but it is still the best Civ game to date (in my view, anyway). SEIV gets my vote for best 4x game, but I haven't played GalCiv, and have only a couple of hours of MoO3 under my belt (I'm still trying to figure out how to do things. The UI doesn't make it very easy... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif ) I had high hopes for Stars! Supernova Genesis, but that project seems on permanent hold. |
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In space-based 4x games with tactical combat, designing ships is a lot of fun because you can actually see and hear the different weapons and so forth. In a terra-based 4x game with no tactical combat, IMHO, a primary advantage of designing units is to tweak the unit cost to suit your individual strategy. So, instead of building one unit that is strong in both attack and defense, you can instead build a couple of good defenders with no attack rating and a whole bunch of units with a strong attack. So, I would say that SMAC is going quite well in the unit design arena. Given that SMAC doesn't have tactical combat, I think they did quite, quite well with their design choices.
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I am still very puzzled why so many people here believe 4X means interstellar games only !!! Where did you get this idea ? For God sake, SMAX is arguably the best 4X game ever. Civ2 is a classic 4X game. MoM too is a perfect example of 4X game for me!
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Oleg: SMAX has nothing on SE4 for the best 4X game ever. And, I would have to disagree that it is the best Civ game. Civ 2 ToT is a much better game in almost every way. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Now if Civ 3 had been ToT + SMAX, it would have been a good game. Hopefully Sid Meier gets shot or something so he can't destroy any more classic game titles... |
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MoM? What is that?
I had never heard, outside of this board, the idea that 4x is innately interstellar. Civ, as far as I know, was the first true 4X game, though there is no 'research' requirement in the four Xs, so Empire may well be the first. (Not sure about 'eXploitation' in Empire, though. As I recall, you just took neutral cities that were already there.) How about the Might and Magic series. I have no affection for this game, but they too seems to fit the 4X requirements, the ones I can remember anyway. Even Civ involves micromanagement, compared to any non-4X game on the market. I suspect that micromanagement is a symptom of a strong 4X game, as it may not be a requirement (see M&M and Empire). In answer to thread's post: do not buy MoO3 any time soon. It is very disappointing right now. It is like seeing your kid sister, the one who was so promising, the one who excelled in athletics and academics and debate in Junior High, like seeing that kid sister drop out of high school, knocked up by her drug dealer, hooked on smack, dirty, hopeless, and coming to you for money. |
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MoM is Masters of Magic.
As old as MoO and by the same people. Microprose and Simtex. "MoM can be called Fantasy Civ." It has cities with build ques instead of slider bars. http://www.mobygames.com/game/sheet/gameId=200/ [ April 22, 2003, 17:18: Message edited by: Wardad ] |
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Well... I really meant Space Opera, which is a Category of 4X, in my first post about it... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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I have heard that the primary reason for Civ III was to create a Civ game with absolutely astounding AI. Master of Magic. I remember playing that game before they disemboweled it trying to give it decent AI. It was fun at first but, oh well... |
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The only times I have ever found the AI in Civ3 or its expansion difficult are when they get massive "cheat" style bonuses. Even then it is pretty darn easy to get them to do stuff that is just retarded. |
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