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-   -   Finnish OOB 5.5 (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=47521)

dmnt June 19th, 2011 09:06 AM

Finnish OOB 5.5
/me puts on a helmet to protect his vulnerable head from angry admins

Now, before I start posting all my opinions I want to thank you for the magnificent work you've done. I know Finns have been loud in this forum before and nitpicking all the details they perceive should be changed, but this time I come back with some evidence.

Finnish defence forces is in progress of updating their equipment pages, starting with SAM:

Finnish defence forces AA missiles.

Finnish OOB unit 350 and unit 353, Pasi Crotale and Pasi Crotale M respectively, availability dates are a bit early. FDF specifies it was modernized during 2009-2010, therefore maybe 350 should be available until 12/2010, 353 available from 1/2009, representing the transition period. Or then just 1/2009 as the transition phase.

Also the ItO 05M specifies that they're using BOLIDE, a slight inconsistence as OOB specifies ammunition as RBS-70 II, where Bolide is the upgraded version of Mk 2. No information is given when they moved on to Bolide exclusively. Therefore, unit 207 RBS-70 SAM and 352 Bandvagn RBS-70 => Change weapon 1 to Bolide?

I also remember reading that Finland was not going to modernize the BMP-2 anymore (re: 033, BMP-2FIN), but I can't find any reliable references for that. I'll post here if I can find them, but IIRC they're opting for getting more CV 9030s instead.

Unit 112, AGS-17. Finland decommissioned the weapon for unreliable ammunition after an incident that took a life of a reservist. In finnish machine translation.

Instead, KrKK 05 was introduced quickly and AGS-17 is no longer in use. Still, unit 574 AGL Nest is only using AGS-17, should probably be available only until 12/2004 and then another unit using KrKK 05 available from 1/2005. Maybe the names for weapons could be consistent, too. AGL in Finnish military web pages in 2007


Please also include the Guard Jaegars, the way you think it'd be best. Guard Jaegars are trained for fighting in built areas, and are using equipment not available at normal Jaegar units (yet). I remember testing night vision stuff during my conscription in 1999.
Some of the equipment and actions can be seen in this video (In Finnish) (jump to 2:25 if you will)
What's different (all these are also available for special jaegar units):
- Shrapnel protection vest with added plates
- Optics, red dot sights (at least since 2005)
- Tactical radios
- Access to grenade pistols
- Access to shotguns (mostly Guard MPs)

What I think could be done:
Copy from ordinary jaegars, maybe change the unit class to Guards Infantry, if the added bonuses aren't strange or out-of-place.
+1 morale for the radios and the warm feeling of security from wearing a shrapnel vest
+3..5 to weapon accuracy from optics
Possibility for weapon combinations, including shotguns and grenade pistols
Add a support platoon or two, 95 RCL M, KrKK 05 or Mortars
Vehicles: Pasi XA-185, trucks

Special Jaegars should also have access to red dot sights.

Pibwl June 21st, 2011 07:03 PM

Re: Finnish OOB 5.5
Speaking of Finland, I have several minor remarks (mostly month corrections according to a Russian article in Tehnika i Vooruzhenie 1/1999):

#003 PT-76 - first were delivered in the end of 10/63 (practically 11/63). I believe they should be PT-76B in fact, produced since 1959, with D-56TS gun with stabilizer. I don't know how about Finnish tanks, but standard Russian ammo load was 24/4/4/8.

#008 T-34/85 M44 - M44 is absolutely useless and non-official addition

#013 T-54B - first were delivered in 9/59

#017 T-72M1S - first were delivered on 13.12.84 (practically 1/85)

#027 BMP-1 -first were delivered in 6/81.

#048 XA-180 PaSi - first were delivered in 8/84

#109 Jaeger section - proper pic is 41086 (Rk.62 rifle)

#117 Jaeger section - proper pic is 11109 (Rk.54 is just a Soviet AK)

#121 Jaeger section - proper pic is 41086 (Rk.62 rifle)

#130 infantry sec - proper pic is 14099 (Rk.56 is just a Chinese Type 56) (or 17098)

#133 Pioneer section - proper pic is 11109

#145 Mil Mi-8 - when it was armed, it carried 4x16 57mm rockets as a standard, so their number could be doubled or the weapon should be upgraded to 4x57mm S-5K (eg. from Russian oob - not weapon 190). Also some AP shots should be given.

#146 Mil Mi-4 - the MG wasn't DShK - weapon's name should be changed to TKB-481 or A-12,7 or just 12.7mm MG or TKB MG (Mi-4 is the only unit using this weapon in oob)

#215 MT-LBv - first 10 were delivered only in mid-12/84 (more were delivered only from 1988)

#281 scouts - proper pic is 11109

#282 scouts - proper pic is 14099 (Rk.56 is just a Chinese Type 56) (or 17098)

#291 ski scouts - proper pic is 11109

#292 ski scouts - proper pic is 14099 (or 17098)

#328 152 TELAK 91 - delivered in 11/91

#345, 346 StuG M40G - they should have also some MG (MG-42?)

#380, 381 37mm AT-Gun - better pic is 36974 (Bofors 37 mm)

#383, 384 45mm AT-Gun - proper pic is 29423 (Soviet 45mm)

#423 Coast Jaegers - proper pic is 11109 (Rk.54 is just a Soviet AK)

#424 Coast Jaegers - proper pic is 41086 (Rk.62 rifle)

#491, 491 Patarooper sec - proper pic is 11109 (Rk.54 is just a Soviet AK)

#514 Reserve Section - proper pic is 14099 (Rk.56 is just a Chinese Type 56) (or 17098)

#520 WSK SM-1 helicopter - Max speed was 185km/h (61 instead of 76) - concerns all countries (SM-1 and Mi-1)


DRG June 22nd, 2011 07:51 AM

Re: Finnish OOB 5.5
I'll put this on the list and look into it when we re-start work on the game


dmnt June 26th, 2011 03:38 PM

Re: Finnish OOB 5.5

Originally Posted by Pibwl (Post 779274)
Speaking of Finland, I have several minor remarks (mostly month corrections according to a Russian article in Tehnika i Vooruzhenie 1/1999):

#328 152 TELAK 91 - delivered in 11/91

Finnish Wikipedia (yes, I know it's really unreliable) tells that it was taken into field tests in 1994 for the first time. It would fit the general Finnish mentality to keep it in lab studies for a couple of years before going to the field. One could think that it would be hurried in case of conflict, so availability of 1993-1994 would probably be applicable.

152H55 June 30th, 2011 05:12 PM

Re: Finnish OOB 5.5

Originally Posted by Pibwl (Post 779274)
#345, 346 StuG M40G - they should have also some MG (MG-42?)

AFAIK Finnish StuGs had DT machine guns installed in loader's shield after arrival in 1943/44. Source:www.andreaslarka.net

Pibwl July 30th, 2011 04:52 PM

Re: Finnish OOB 5.5
#532 Sisu Proto - it was produced since 1965 (Sisu KB-45, then A-45), not 1946. We could make some other truck with generic name before this date.

dmnt August 12th, 2011 07:49 AM

Re: Finnish OOB 5.5
Finland abandons its (last?) two Mil Mi-8s and donates them to Hungary.
(In Finnish) http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/artikkeli/S.../1135268482771

Units 145, 147: Limit availability to 12/110

dmnt September 15th, 2011 02:13 AM

Re: Finnish OOB 5.5
Finnish national broadcasting corporation has a small article "In pictures - Legendary FDF equipment at the end of the road" listing equipment that's to be upgraded or removed from service and replaced.


Probable paths:
Pasi XA-180 / -185 => Patria AMV
23 ItK 61 "Sergei" (23mm AAG) => MANPADs
Pasi Crotale => More Unimogs?
66 KES 88 Orak (LAW M72A5) => ?
7.62 RK 62 (Assault Rifle) => ?
BTR-50 / -60 => ? (Probably just scrapped, no advantage over AMVs)

Then there's radios, cooking equipment, tents etc. with no simulational value.

dmnt September 23rd, 2011 07:51 AM

Re: Finnish OOB 5.5
FDF Army to purchase TI equipment (In Finnish)

Defence Forces to purchase thermal imaging equipment

The Army Materiel Division has signed an agreement of acquiring thermal imaging equipment, authorized by the Department of Defense. Tender was won bt the American Raytheon ELCAN Optical Technologies, which supplies Phantom TI units in 2012. The purchase price including VAT is € 6.5 million.

TI equipment will improve the Army's ability to fight in dark and will improve the capability after Finland abolishes anti-personnel mines. The Army Materiel Division was mandated by DoD in February 2010.

Equipment maintenance and installation will be performed by Finnish company called Millog Oy. The acquisition includes an option for later purchases.

dmnt December 1st, 2011 06:16 PM

Re: Finnish OOB 5.5
Got confirmation, Finland scrapped T72s in 2007-2008 (which also resulted in a nice corruption scandal and criminal court, but I digress) except for the engineering tanks.

From 2006, In Finnish: http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/artikkeli/P.../1135224786324
Quick fixed English machine translation:
The Finnish Defence Forces will discard this year about 350 tanks by selling them for scrap. Due to the purchased German Leopard tanks and demands for savings in storage costs that have accumulated on decommissioned equipment, FDF had to sign the first scrapping contract.

The Finnish Defence Forces will gain on average EUR 10 000 per tank. The contract with Stena Metalli the three-year scrapping program also includes scrap metal pick-up at FDF locations as well as the collection from Kittilä blast area shrapnel collection.

About T72 in Finnish Wikipedia: http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/T72#K.C...C3.B6_Suomessa
Now, T-72 fleet is out of the Finnish Defence Forces use. The tanks were sold and unsold scrapped in Jyväskylä Seppälänkangas industrial area starting in late 2006. In 2007 Armed Forces decided to scrap the 240 main battle tanks, 220 vehicles and the assault tanks and more than 200 field guns. Some of the scrapped vehicles were T-72s and field guns 152-mm howitzers. Colonel Markku Laine stated that the upkeep costs of the old equipment would have exceeded their sales value in a long run.

In late summer 2007 T72 surplus stocks of spare parts were sold thru Patria Weapons Systems to the Czech Republic. The buyer was a Dako Cz, and the purchase price of EUR 4.1 million, including spare parts 430 000 titles.

In Finland, the T72's were replaced by the Leopard 2 A4.

In effect, Finland scrapped old Soviet equipment of T72 (NOTE! Not the mine clearing ones!), BMP-1 (already correct in the OOB) and some howitzers. IIRC the discussion was that there's no point in keeping different guns of (approximately) same caliber, favoring SPAs over static howitzers.

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