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-   -   Updates in light of Ukraine war (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=52845)

FOARP March 21st, 2022 05:18 AM

Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Some things presently in the game fairly obviously need updating in light of the war in Ukraine:

- Ukrainian OOB, add Javelins, NLAWs, Panzerfausts, Stingers, Starstreak.

- Active protection systems (e.g., Shtora) DO NOT WORK, or at least there are no reports of any of them stopping even a single Stugna-P, Javelin, or other anti-tank weapon. Why this is is hard to say - could be poor Russian maintenance but Ukrainian tanks also seem to be suffering the same thing.

- ERA is also a lot less effective in reality than it is in this game, at least not against tandem warheads or top-attack weapons.

- In reality T-72s, T80s, and T90s appear much more vulnerable than they do in this game. Of course there is selection bias in the videos that you can find online, but there is little evidence that the armour of these tanks is very effective against even close-range auto-cannon fire (cf a Ukrainian BTR-4 taking out a Russian T72B3M from the side with its 30mm cannon in Mariupol).

Aeraaa March 21st, 2022 05:37 AM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Oh geez, not again...

Mobhack March 21st, 2022 12:10 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Definitely someone who hasn't bothered in the slightest to actually read the board posts since the invasion of UKR started...

DRG March 21st, 2022 03:34 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
YES.... we have been paying attention to current events:doh: and there has been ongoing adjustments made starting the day after the Russians crossed the border.

What source claimed the 30mm kill ?? I want to know just what "taking out" means in that event..... did the tank burn and explode or did the crew bug out?

There is a LOT of BS flowing from both sides ......don't add to it

DO YOU MEAN THIS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt06PvmqD7Q

If yes it claims " damage " but that tells us nothing about the actual "Damage"


And here's a PRIME example of the BS flowing like water

https://www.businessinsider.com/vide...ariupol-2022-3

Quote:

The video appears to show a Ukrainian armored personal carrier damaging a Russian tank and destroying another.
The "other" was not a "tank" ( MISINFORMATION] but it does go on to say

Quote:

...shows a Ukrainian BTR-4 damaging a Russian T-72B3M tank and destroying a BRM-1K armored vehicle

which is a LONG way from taking out a B3M from the side and as sure as the sun rises that 30mm autocannon on the BTR-4 can chew up a BRM-1K

vyrago March 22nd, 2022 03:15 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mobhack (Post 851907)
Definitely someone who hasn't bothered in the slightest to actually read the board posts since the invasion of UKR started...

his account looks relatively new, its not like you're getting a ton if visitors here anyways. Maybe give him a break?

I'm seeing a real noticeable gatekeeping/toxicity here from the old guard towards people asking about updates, add-ons, features etc.

vyrago March 22nd, 2022 03:25 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FOARP (Post 851902)
Some things presently in the game fairly obviously need updating in light of the war in Ukraine:

- Ukrainian OOB, add Javelins, NLAWs, Panzerfausts, Stingers, Starstreak.

- Active protection systems (e.g., Shtora) DO NOT WORK, or at least there are no reports of any of them stopping even a single Stugna-P, Javelin, or other anti-tank weapon. Why this is is hard to say - could be poor Russian maintenance but Ukrainian tanks also seem to be suffering the same thing.

- ERA is also a lot less effective in reality than it is in this game, at least not against tandem warheads or top-attack weapons.

- In reality T-72s, T80s, and T90s appear much more vulnerable than they do in this game. Of course there is selection bias in the videos that you can find online, but there is little evidence that the armour of these tanks is very effective against even close-range auto-cannon fire (cf a Ukrainian BTR-4 taking out a Russian T72B3M from the side with its 30mm cannon in Mariupol).


I agree with you! to each of your points.

- I have not seen one totally verifiable video or photo evidence of active protection working. You would think that after nearly a month, there would have been something. In short: active protection might need a nerf.

- ERA a tricky. I have seen two videos of frontal hits on T-80s with an unknown HEAT warhead (RPG, Pz 3?) where the ERA did appear to work.

- You're right here. The footage of the BTR-4 penetrating the T-72B3M has even been verified by another 'game': war thunder. Side protection on T-72s in some places is no more than 60mm. Autocannons might need a slight boost.


Futher: i've argued that modern AGTMs like Javelin need a boost. Ive done tests with Javelins vs T-80s and always seem to average about a 25% kill rate, with over 50% being intercepted by CIWS/VIRSS. This has clearly not been observed in Ukraine. Data from defense analysts suggest javelin effectiveness is about 93% overall. That includes all targets however: MBTs, APCs, IFVs etc...

DRG March 22nd, 2022 06:53 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
We have made adjustments to the way the game calculates the effects of active defensive systems and in the next update they will be somewhat less effective but no matter what we do someone will have differing opinions. It's been like that since the start. It's why WaW even existed. There is no way to make everyone "happy" and it will take months at best for the truth and BS to be sorted out when it comes to who did what and what effect that has and if in the end it means an adjustment to the code we will make adjustments to the code but right now the "truth" is whatever someone on either side want it to appear and real data is not going to be available for a while yet but if we think something needs tweaking we will or have tweaked it.

In regards to the first post, it was obvious either what had been said and written on these forums since the start of this had not been read or it was thought we are living on the moon

Quote:

some things presently in the game fairly obviously need updating in light of the war in Ukraine:
Well DUH.

The actual capabilities of the systems we try to simulate in the game can NEVER BE KNOWN until they are tested in combat and then we make adjustments to try and bring reality and the game closer together but to think we are unaware that certain things "fairly obviously need updating" is just a BIT insulting like we are somehow unaware of events. Hence the response given

Quote:

Autocannons might need a slight boost.
NO...... but the steel side armour on those tanks may need lowering which I have already said we are looking into on another thread

We were already working harder on this than either of us wanted to and Andys doing it with a broken shoulder then this all started requiring us to be even more busy making adjustments almost all of them based on guesstimates because nothing is really known for sure

Karagin March 22nd, 2022 08:00 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
So let's hold off on updating things, say until this time next year, when we all have time to digest the information and figure out the actual facts...if that is not good for some then so what, I would rather have you guys in good humor and health and not burnt out. You and Andy have done amazing work.

FASTBOAT TOUGH March 23rd, 2022 02:54 AM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Add JAVALIN's to the Ukrainian OOB? I do believe Don and I had already done that about two years ago at least. You NEED to check the OOB first or at a minimum, I think..., I'm not sure if..., I believe they might (or not) ....

I believe this is getting out of hand. I believe, if these distractions keep up, we won't see an update until June.

I know that there was a plan on what were the top items they wanted to get done for the next release. Normally all "outside" inputs would've been ended by FEB./or beginning of March.

What we think we know is JAVALIN & NLAW performing a little better than expected. T-72 GENERALLY speaking up to maybe the T-72B3 (Considered a 3rd Gen MBT. aren't so good, however it is no secret with Russia it's always been about numerical superiority it is estimated they operate around over 2000 - 3000 of them.

There's ALOT of technical issues that need looking into.

Karagan is right and I'll go a little further in saying we NEED TO GO TO "ALL STOP" concerning any further changes concerning this war period for the next release.

We experienced the cost of all this "over exuberance" about ~4+ years ago. The cost?

I do believe it was a lay off that lasted over a year with a 1.5-year gap between releases. I believe that was a summer release.

This is not "Burger King" where you can have it your way!

More like Andy and Dons Diner where they offer a good meal and a fair price with a daily "Very Generous Potluck" meal. Can you guess were we fit in metaphorically speaking!?!

This war is not ending anytime soon, kind've more like the Battle of Britain with the resolve of The Blitz.

Time to take the "Very Generous Potluck" meal off the menu.

I'm ready for the just a good meal served when ready without the extra frills. That analogy has now made me hungry!

So, I'm off to bed instead.

Andy get well, I think a shot or two of some of FINE Scottish Whiskey or my preference INNIS & GUNN from the Whiskey or Rum barrel will do you well. Or maybe just a "spot of tea" of which you add any of the afore mentioned items, maybe not so much the Innis & Gunn. ;)

Don, have a couple cold ones, shoot some targets and have a nice walk.

On second thought, shoot first and the rest as you see fit. :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG March 23rd, 2022 05:17 AM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/18/u...s-russia.html?

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/16/u...pgtype=Article

zovs66 March 23rd, 2022 06:46 AM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Mostly just informative, but I thought interesting.

https://youtu.be/VyHVWqO7NnI

zovs66 March 23rd, 2022 06:54 AM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Same content provider but for the AT4.

https://youtu.be/Y6LHFdDdhcM

zovs66 March 23rd, 2022 07:07 AM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
And just for a bit of humor

https://youtu.be/toGMjVVhkiM

SaS TrooP March 23rd, 2022 07:30 AM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
I would not be that over reacting :P
As I play SPMBT, CIWS and VIRSS systems seem to be quite ineffective for top attack ATGMs like Javelin - like already in the game.

I would generally not say that Russian CIWS is not working completely - rather than NATO supplied weapons strike the top of the vehicle so often that its covering angles are way insufficient.

About that ERA protection... oh boi, problem appears to be that many Russian vehicles are empty. There are pictures of literally egg-fillers put into those bricks but could be propaganda - either way though, brick is empty. This kinda shows the scale of corruption or low readiness of many units, not neccessarily that certain gear does not work.

What I would recommend however is to probably "bring back" the deadliness of MANPADS systems. It was modified couple of updates ago and now it is super hard task to shoot down aircraft/chopper with these missiles, even after a couple of hits. This does not apply only to Strieła like systems that always suffered from poor warhead load, but MANPADS in general. Recently replayed one of Lundstrom's scenarios with Swedish Army and engaged Hinds with RBS-70s. Not a single one was downed with a single missile, while several were hit 5+ times to even assure any dammage (!)
I believe Ukraine War pretty decently proves that underpowering those weapons could be wrong...

DRG March 23rd, 2022 10:20 AM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
4 Attachment(s)
What we ( I ) had assumed was modernized T-72's had ERA on the hull sides but it increasingly seems that they do not and the frustrating part is much of the type of info we need is rarely easily available

There is NO era on that rear hull
https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1648044341

There is a bulk area here that *MIGHT" conceal ERA blocks

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1648044532

but putting reactive armour behind rubber matting like that would direct some of the force back to the vehicle if the block was hit
https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1648044790

I don't think there is ANY ERA on the hull sides

It may have been tried early on

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1648045074

But does not seem to be the case now along with any increase in steel hull side armour over time

Still digging for more info

DRG March 23rd, 2022 11:54 AM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
FINALLY some clear, usable information

https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot...72-part-2.html

Quote:

The hull side, hull roof, hull belly and rear armour of all T-72 models are identical, regardless of the variant. As stated earlier, the armour of the side of the hull is 80mm thick. The armour on the sides of the engine compartment is 70mm thick. The side armour of the hull is more than enough to withstand 20mm armour-piercing ammunition fired from various aircraft as well as 20mm and 25mm APDS rounds from autocannons.
NOTE the incident in the video involved 30mm autocannon

Quote:

The side armour is thickest at the top half and thins down to just 20mm at the lower quarter of the side hull profile. The upper and lower sides are not the same plate. The upper side armour is a single rolled steel plate whereas the lower side armour is actually a part of the belly armour plate. The belly plate is a large stamped piece of steel, bent into a tub shape and welded to the upper side armour. It joins with the upper side plate at an angle of 32 degrees from the vertical axis. The lower side hull armour has a height of 250mm or 270mm if the thickness of the plate itself is included. The upper side hull occupies around three quarters of the area of the side hull profile and the weaker lower side hull occupies one quarter. This thin strip of the side armour is usually not visible as it is completely concealed behind the roadwheels which add a modicum of spaced armour. The roadwheels cover a height of around 350mm of the lower part of the hull, and thus cover the entirety of the lower hull sides and also cover a part of the upper hull sides as well. The short height of the lower side hull armour makes it statistically unlikely to be hit and the additional protection provided by the roadwheels offsets the reduced thickness of the armour, so overall, it is not a flaw in the protection scheme of the tank.
Quote:

It is without a doubt that the sides of the tank were only sufficient for a very limited period of the service life of the T-72. Being only 80mm thick, the side armour plate could offer only a fraction of the protective value of the front armour, and this was not a trifling issue. The number of hits sustained by a tank's sides were statistically significant, as shown by the analyses conducted by Dr. Manfred Held in "Warhead Hit Distribution on Main Battle Tanks in The Gulf".

There WILL be changes made. SO HAPPY there are 181 of them in the OOB's and that only counts the ones with T-72 in their names

GRUMBLE

Aeraaa March 23rd, 2022 12:18 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
I believe the biggest problem of the game is its binary logic: If Pen>Armor= always pen, otherwise never pen. Real life AFVs have all sorts of weakpoints that can offer chances of penetration to guns that on paper should not penetrate. It would be better if pen and armor values are translated to a chance to penetrate, where even weaker guns have a chance to cause damage/knock out an AFV.

Of course, this is a change that is probably quite significant and will likely not be implemented any time soon (if ever). But it will make things more unpredictable and will reduce the chance of 21st century armor behaving like KV-1 in Barbarossa.

DRG March 23rd, 2022 12:28 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
AH HA!!!

https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot...72-part-2.html

The video below shows a T-72B in Grozny retreating with some of its external sponson fuel cells alight. As you can see, the tank is not disabled by the fire and is perfectly capable of moving under its own power to a safe location where the crew can put out the fire with the fire extinguishers carried inside the tank.


Thats why that one was burning in that video in Ukraine the external fuel cells were ruptured

DRG March 23rd, 2022 12:30 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeraaa (Post 851944)
I believe the biggest problem of the game is its binary logic: If Pen>Armor= always pen, otherwise never pen. Real life AFVs have all sorts of weakpoints that can offer chances of penetration to guns that on paper should not penetrate. It would be better if pen and armor values are translated to a chance to penetrate, where even weaker guns have a chance to cause damage/knock out an AFV.

Of course, this is a change that is probably quite significant and will likely not be implemented any time soon (if ever). But it will make things more unpredictable and will reduce the chance of 21st century armor behaving like KV-1 in Barbarossa.


That is why there are a HOST of randoms built into the penetration code so it IS NOT black/white pen/no pen in the game even remotely

IT IS NOT Pen>Armor= always pen and never has been

Aeraaa March 23rd, 2022 12:30 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG (Post 851945)
AH HA!!!

https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot...72-part-2.html

The video below shows a T-72B in Grozny retreating with some of its external sponson fuel cells alight. As you can see, the tank is not disabled by the fire and is perfectly capable of moving under its own power to a safe location where the crew can put out the fire with the fire extinguishers carried inside the tank.


Thats why that one was burning in that video in Ukraine the external fuel cells were ruptured

And that is why BDA should not be performed by YT/twitter professionals...:D

DRG March 23rd, 2022 02:37 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
I have confirmed from the same source that ......

Quote:

The fighting compartment and engine compartment of the tank is protected by heavy side skirts incorporating "Relikt" ERA elements. The skirts were originally developed and implemented on the T-90MS
and they look like this

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-swYwfRacv...1600/4cv5Y.jpg


and that matches what is shown in that video

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1647952203


The slat armour is missing but the blocks are identical so the reactive armour values in the stays as is ( the code that makes them work...... or not ........*may* undergo some revision)

Wdll March 23rd, 2022 04:11 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG (Post 851945)
AH HA!!!

https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot...72-part-2.html

The video below shows a T-72B in Grozny retreating with some of its external sponson fuel cells alight. As you can see, the tank is not disabled by the fire and is perfectly capable of moving under its own power to a safe location where the crew can put out the fire with the fire extinguishers carried inside the tank.


Thats why that one was burning in that video in Ukraine the external fuel cells were ruptured

Are you sure? To me it looked like the tank was cooking.
Having said that, we might be talking about a different video.:D

Aeraaa March 24th, 2022 07:44 AM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Since a picture is worth 1000 words and a video probably a million:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9pVEP0AzZ4

DRG March 24th, 2022 08:11 AM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
That's the same one Karigan posted yesterday in the 2022 updates? thread and it is an excellent commentary on why conclusions should not be drawn in haste based on biased information and that's why we generally have not..... yet. There have been a number of additions to the Ukraine OOB and we have adjusted the EXP and MOR value lists and we are going to take another look at Manpad vs Air/ Helos to see if *maybe* we went too far the last time we made adjustments to the code for that. Beyond that.... wait and see

DRG March 24th, 2022 08:24 AM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
One of the key points is made between 3:02 - 3:37


If you send unsupported tanks into areas infested with enemy infantry what is happening is what you should expect to happen

Aeraaa March 24th, 2022 08:28 AM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Yeah, you're right, Karagin posted it yesterday. :doh:

My bad, apologies for that. Although I want to say it's the video that best sums up all my thought so far in this conflict (and conflict in the digital era in general) and that's why I was so eager to post it.

DRG March 24th, 2022 08:32 AM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
In this case that video posted in multiple places is a good thing. Everyone should watch that and consider carefully want he says before suggesting " changes"

"You don't know what you don't know.
"

The "problem" is right now we have multiple threads on this forum dealing with issues related to the current conflict and how they impact RL (and the game ) and it is difficult to remember where they all are

Another Key point is made 12:10 - 12:30....... active protection systems are not universally fitted... This is important to "the game" because in 2022 ALL Russian "MBT" tanks have active or passive systems in the game because the information we had was that they did but there ARE "CS" versions that don't and anyone setting up a battle or a scenario need to consider using those versions as well


I think I have a new end of game shutdown message

"Defending is all well and good, but victory comes from the offence otherwise all you are doing is giving the other side time to fix what they are doing wrong"

Nicholas Moran (The Chieftain)

Wdll March 24th, 2022 10:33 AM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Slightly relevant.
I am in a generated campaign (Greece vs Russia 2022) and the first 2 (or 3?) battles it was a cakewalk. I mean even though the AI had a bonus in points to purchase stuff, it was really easy for me. Which is a RARE thing against powerful armies such as Russia.
In the current (3rd or 4th) battle while it was again easy to capture all the flags and clear our most of the map, I found some enemy troops "hiding" in the southern part where there was nothing really important. Cocky as I was I sent my vehicles (Leo2, BMP1, M113) to quickly mop up any enemy forces. In about 5 turns I think I lost more tanks and helos than I lost in all the previous battles combined. Didn't use infantry first, didn't prepare with artillery fire, didn't..didn't..didn't. One stupid mistake after another. One cocky mistake after another. I have to say, I almost enjoyed having my *** handed to me like that.

blazejos March 24th, 2022 12:11 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Also I d'like to rapport a come back of Tachanka in Ukrainian war we discuss this this in some post of SPWWII as a horse cart with HMG something like war chariot which predates technical vehicles used by cavalry during civil war in Russia on early XX century and then widespread in cavalry units in eastern Europe and central Asia. But now we can see here new incarnation of this famous vehicle on some sort of wagon mounted by motorcycle with canonical Maxim 10/30 from museum (storage ?)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOeN99wX...jpg&name=small

here famous Tachanka song from Soviet revolutionary times
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGofoatz-20
so after a little more than a 100 years all goes back to roots :D

DRG March 24th, 2022 12:36 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxLT81wMzEU

Quote:

...the Taliban were better fighters than the Russians.......

and that could very well be because a lot of Russian troops may not really want to be there and the Ukrainians really want them to not be there as well

Aeraaa March 24th, 2022 01:16 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Well, I'd argue that the Taliban are probably better fighters than the majority of NATO countries' troops. Nothing extraordinary with that, they basically know war since their very birth by now.

DRG March 24th, 2022 01:37 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
So much depends on Context. The Ukrainians are doing well. They were also invaded. Chances are if you changed the circumstances and it was Ukrainian troops "on manoeuvres" on the Belarus border and they woke up one morning and were ordered to advance into Belarus they might not fight with the same determination as they are now

I would not say the Taliban was better than NATO. They waited until it was only the Afgan army to stop them before they made a serious move to return but yes they have generations of experience

Wdll March 24th, 2022 02:32 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeraaa (Post 851979)
Well, I'd argue that the Taliban are probably better fighters than the majority of NATO countries' troops. Nothing extraordinary with that, they basically know war since their very birth by now.

How many wars have the Taliban won against NATO countries?

Even when there were only a couple thousand NATO troops in Afghanistan they didn't dare do much against them.
They succeeded in not losing, but having constant support and reinforcements from Pakistan. All they had to do was to bully a local population which had no desire to fight and from the looks of it bribe state officials so that when NATO troops left the country they could just walk in.
I am not saying they were the worst or that they don't deserve credit for surviving at least in part due to skill, but pound for pound I wouldn't say they are as good as the majority of NATO countries' troops. Not even close.

Wdll March 24th, 2022 02:43 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
While the source for me is not exactly trustworthy, interesting video which if accurate is informative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOmYi96cU1M

Aeraaa March 24th, 2022 02:46 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
No, I'm going to stand by my opinion.

Now, to clarify, NATO does have the upper edge against the Taliban. Main reason is of course that Taliban are a light infantry force and any attempt of them to slug it out in the open with NATO troops is going to end with them being utterly annihilated by superior firepower. But, they are skilled in small unit tactics, in concealment, gathering intel from the local population and use of agents, even conducting HVT assasination. There are few NATO countries that have actual combat experience in these fields.

Again, I'm talking about Taliban warrior spirit, which can be found in light infantry. As Taliban do not possess tanks, or heavy artillery, or air, they by default lose in these fields. But they did play their cards superbly, while the same cannot be said about NATO countries that participated in the Afghan war. Also, for all intents and purposes, NATO had an almost constant numerical advantage against the Taliban (counting only the fighters at least).

But anyway, this will derail the thread from Ukraine to Afghanistan.

Wdll March 24th, 2022 03:11 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeraaa (Post 851983)
No, I'm going to stand by my opinion.

Now, to clarify, NATO does have the upper edge against the Taliban. Main reason is of course that Taliban are a light infantry force and any attempt of them to slug it out in the open with NATO troops is going to end with them being utterly annihilated by superior firepower. But, they are skilled in small unit tactics, in concealment, gathering intel from the local population and use of agents, even conducting HVT assasination. There are few NATO countries that have actual combat experience in these fields.

Again, I'm talking about Taliban warrior spirit, which can be found in light infantry. As Taliban do not possess tanks, or heavy artillery, or air, they by default lose in these fields. But they did play their cards superbly, while the same cannot be said about NATO countries that participated in the Afghan war. Also, for all intents and purposes, NATO had an almost constant numerical advantage against the Taliban (counting only the fighters at least).

But anyway, this will derail the thread from Ukraine to Afghanistan.

The same could be said about the Cosa Nostra. High morale, warrior spirit, assassinations, using local population to move/hide, etc. All the Taliban did was use terrorism to scare off local population to support them, use criminal activities to gain not only money but also troops and then basically do hit and run "war" whenever they thought they had a good chance. I'm sorry, but I don't see that at any level as something better than most NATO countries troops. At any level. But yes of course believe anything you want.

DRG March 24th, 2022 04:20 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
https://tass.com/defense/1061790

Quote:

Trophy active protection system 'toothless’ against Russian anti-tank weapons, says source
Well...... they do seem to be the current experts on things that don't work...:D

DRG March 24th, 2022 04:29 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Could be true.......or not. Lots of BS flowing

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...yed-in-ukraine

I highly doubt the last sentence though. I have seen photos or the T-72 with the latest Arena

Quote:

It could also be the case that despite — or even because of — the ferocity of the fighting on the ground, Russia is keen to test out different capabilities against modern battlefield threats. In such a scenario, it’s conceivable that the T-80UM2 was deployed to Ukraine specifically to assess how its protection features, and perhaps other systems, fared against some of the advanced weaponry, including anti-tank missiles, fielded now by Ukraine. As far as is known, the T-80UM2 was the only tank deployed by Russia in the fighting so far to feature an active protection system.

Wdll March 24th, 2022 04:35 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG (Post 851986)


<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/5gw0VWGbgNm8w" width="480" height="233" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/5gw0VWGbgNm8w">via GIPHY</a></p>

DRG March 24th, 2022 04:37 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Yeah I had to leave before I edited it fully

DRG March 24th, 2022 04:55 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3o_1mVl7G4

Quote:

The battle of Irpin: Meeting the Ukrainian resistance • FRANCE 24 English

MarkSheppard March 24th, 2022 07:08 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FOARP (Post 851902)
Active protection systems (e.g., Shtora) DO NOT WORK, or at least there are no reports of any of them stopping even a single Stugna-P, Javelin, or other anti-tank weapon. Why this is is hard to say - could be poor Russian maintenance but Ukrainian tanks also seem to be suffering the same thing.

APS can't work if APS isn't installed.

To this date, there is one (1) confirmed Russian tank with Hard-APS (aka projectiles hitting incoming munitions) destroyed (the lone T-80UM prototype).

Everything else the Russians have is Passive-APS (Shtora) which relies on IR dazzlers mounted on the front of the turret. You can't dazzle an ATGM launch from the side if your turret isn't pointed at it.

Quote:

ERA is also a lot less effective in reality than it is in this game, at least not against tandem warheads or top-attack weapons.
We're seeing bias here -- we only see the "sexy" hit tank it blew up videos, not videos of tanks taking hit after hit and not blowing up.

Quote:

there is little evidence that the armour of these tanks is very effective against even close-range auto-cannon fire (cf a Ukrainian BTR-4 taking out a Russian T72B3M from the side with its 30mm cannon in Mariupol).
You realize that is a "Stuart with 37mm taking out a Tiger with a one in a million shot via jamming turret ring" issue? Like literally; the BTR-4 gunner got lucky at point blank range, which enabled him to aim for the thin read side armor in just about every tank that's existed since logical armoring began?

The game already accommodates that via "critical penetration" chance.

DRG March 24th, 2022 07:38 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkSheppard (Post 851991)
You realize that is a "Stuart with 37mm taking out a Tiger with a one in a million shot via jamming turret ring" issue? Like literally; the BTR-4 gunner got lucky at point blank range, which enabled him to aim for the thin read side armor in just about every tank that's existed since logical armoring began?

The game already accommodates that via "critical penetration" chance.

The problem with all of these videos is we are only being shown what "they" want us to see. That tank did have reactive side plates which I showed earlier and when the BTR fired they reacted and then there was fire but that's the area the sponson fuel tanks are and then the video ended.

That tank was also missing its cage armour at the rear

Point blank fire with a 30mm autocannon, exploding reactive plates, burning fuel then ....

CUT! thats a wrap.

We know N O T H I N G about what happened next.... NOTHING


EVERYONE needs to watch this at least once

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9pVEP0AzZ4

MarkSheppard March 24th, 2022 07:43 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1647952203

From this, you have to be at point blank range with a rapid fire autocannon to be able to kill a T-72/T-90 with it.

(The T-90 is actually a rebadged T-72 with a new turret in later marks).

Essentially, as DRG found out:

the armour of the side of the hull is 80mm thick. The armour on the sides of the engine compartment is 70mm thick.

War Thunder (I know, I know); lists the 30mm 2A42 Autocannon as having at 100m the following penetration:

HE/AP: 63~mm
APDS: 81~mm

The penetration of HE/AP is deep enough that there would be scabbing off the inside of the armor; especially in the rear 70mm thick armor around the engine.

So you can see that in order for a BMP-3/BTR-4 to stand a chance of defeating a T-72/90; the following must occur:

1.) It must be within 100m or less.
2.) The enemy T-72/90 must not have side skirt armor (or be missing pieces of it).
3.) The gunner has to recognize the missing side armor as a weak spot.
4.) The gunner then has to place 20~ rounds into that area.

That's a lot of conditionals that have to occur for a "one in a million" shot.

People need to remember the scope of Steel Panthers -- it's not a "down in the weeds semi accurate penetration simulator" like War Thunder is; but more of an abstraction of armored fighting; i.e. the game already abstractly accounts for weak spots; just load MBT_APCalc and look at Russian Weapon 77 - 30mm 2A42 A/C:

100m Range:
AP: 6 typical penetration, 7 best possible penetration
Sabot 8 typical penetration, 11 best possible penetration

DRG March 24th, 2022 07:54 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
If you see this

https://magic-models.com/wp-content/...T-72B3M_34.jpg

https://magic-models.com/wp-content/...T-72B3M_52.jpg

it has Arena...... if you don't see it, it doesn't

https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod...f?resize=980:*

MarkSheppard March 24th, 2022 07:57 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Continuing my own thread of thought:

Look in MOBHack, Russian OBAT:

Unit 031 T-72 -- 9 Side, 6 rear Steel armor for hull (c.1975)
Unit 035 T-72B -- 13 Side, 8 rear Steel Armor for hull (c.1985)

You can see how the game is trying to abstractly simulate the differences between a 1975 T-72 with no side armor schurzen and the later 1985 model T-72 with side armor schurzen + ERA.

Because remember, Schurzen still helps; even in the year 2000+ against APDS rounds, because a solid Schurzen plate is typically 1cm thick, and can induce yaw onto an incoming projectile; causing it to fail after passing through.

I think a lot of misunderstanding is occurring due to games like War Thunder -- it's done a lot to help the AFV community, but it's also hurt in some ways.

This is because War Thunder can hyper model individual armor plate thicknesses across an entire 3D model, whereas games like Steel Panthers have to take an entire aspect (frontal, side, rear) and abstract it down to a single number that then represents that entire aspect; while in War Thunder, you can aim for weak spots (i.e. no ERA or schurzen protection) and see that represented in real time.

MarkSheppard March 24th, 2022 08:16 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Another aspect people are missing is that this mass ATGM/MANPAD spam is...abnormal.

Thousands of MANPADs and ATGMs have flooded into Ukraine; while the Ukrainians have asked (per CNN) for 500~ Javelin and 500~ Stingers...PER DAY.

To put that all into context, in 2014 Finland spent EUR 90 million (about $123 million) for the FIM-92 RMP Block I Stinger to replace their existing pile of Soviet era MANPADs.

The original contract "Wish List" was $330 million for 600 RMP Block I Stingers, 110 Firing Units, and 110 night vision sights.

So we can guesstimate that Finland actually bought only about:

200 x Stinger RMP Blk I
40 x Firing Units + IR Sights

That's not a lot for a modern battlefield; especially if you might use 3 or more Stingers in an ambush pocket -- one guy fires a Stinger at a Ka-52 Alligator; the pilot sees it and flares go out and it evades....

...only to find out that the Ukrainians have carefully positioned several more stingers to the sides of the main shooter; so that no matter which way the helicopter evades, it's turning towards a Stinger Shooter. :eek:

DRG March 24th, 2022 11:05 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
1 Attachment(s)
There is one interesting addition this year.......
https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1648177488

Wdll March 25th, 2022 02:13 AM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG (Post 851998)
There is one interesting addition this year.......
https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1648177488

Is that the child of the Batplane and the SR-71?

DRG March 25th, 2022 07:51 AM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Switchblade drone
https://www.popsci.com/technology/sw...nes-explained/
https://www.avinc.com/tms/switchblade

Quote:

Supporting conventional or special operations forces in the field or from fixed defensive positions, the combat-proven Switchblade 300 with patented wave-off feature is the ideal loitering missile for use against beyond-line-of-sight targets. Backpackable and rapidly deployable from air, sea or ground platforms, Switchblade 300 delivers increased warfighter lethality with real-time GPS coordinates and video for precise targeting with low collateral effects.
It uses the NLOS weapons class and has special targeting instructions that are included with the units that have it which is one in the US OOB, one in the Ukrainian OOB and one in the UK OOB ( UK starting 2023)

Quote:

Only a HQ , dedicated forward observer or light helicopter can target using NLOS and that unit must be able to see the target.*
*
To target an NLOS unit first press the " I " key with the spotter unit and you will see a list of the NLOS firing units available on the Right. You can click on any of the listed NLOS units to select it as the current firing unit. Once you have the firing unit unit you want you can click on a target on the map or use the ' N(ext) ' or 'P(revious)' keys to go to the next or previous target. Once you have your target and firer pair as you wish it, then press the ' F ' key to fire the unit and the firing sequence will begin. NLOS units that have used their shots for that turn will disappear from the list of available units*

it's not a perfect adaptation of the weapon but it's "close enough" it has a WH similar to a 40mm GL


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