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Atrocities June 24th, 2003 07:15 AM

STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
The Star Trek Mod

I have talked it over with both Kwok and CNC Raymond about re-modding the AST Mod into a mod similar to the one Kwok was working on.

Kwok has given his support of this, and is allowing me to use many of his concepts and ideas. Thank you Captain Kwok.

CNC has agreed to allow me to scavenge the AST mod as needed.

If all progresses well, I will have a beta Version of the mod out by the middle of July.

The mod will use most, if not all of Captain Kowks original Star Trek mod concepts, settings, ideas, etc, in conjunction with a few from the AST mod.

I will set up a web page soon that will list my progress. In the mean time your comments are welcome.

[ June 15, 2004, 06:03: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

minipol June 24th, 2003 08:35 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Cool but isn't mid july a bit optimistic if you know how long it took Capt'n?
Anyway, i hope you succeed in doing so because if want to play a good ST mod. It was one of the initial reasons i bought the game: i saw many of your shipsets so i knew the game was very moddable http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Fyron June 24th, 2003 09:12 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Much of Kwok's time (until the Last few months) was spent theorizing and coming up with ideas, and also making graphics. The actual implementation of them in the data files takes much less time.

Atrocities June 24th, 2003 10:26 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by minipol:
Cool but isn't mid july a bit optimistic if you know how long it took Capt'n?
Anyway, i hope you succeed in doing so because if want to play a good ST mod. It was one of the initial reasons i bought the game: i saw many of your shipsets so i knew the game was very moddable http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What Fyron said is very true and remember that the AST mod has been around now for over six months and a lot of the files have been kinda sorta optimized for a trek based mod already.

So I am hopeful. The ships sets are already done, the basic mod blue print is done, all that really remains is taking what Kwok has generated for the Star Trek mod and make it using his concepts.

Captain Kwok June 24th, 2003 06:21 PM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Chief Engineer Erax:
Maybe this is a good time to explain the differences between both mods to us forum-goers who weren't around when work on them began?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The basic difference between the two mods was that the ASTmod played more along the lines of a typical SE4 game, while the STmod was intended to be a complete 'conVersion' sort of thing, much skewed from the original game.

Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Much of Kwok's time (until the Last few months) was spent theorizing and coming up with ideas, and also making graphics. The actual implementation of them in the data files takes much less time.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is true. Also keep in mind that most of the time while I was working on the mod, I was also attending school, working, and married. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

I've given Atrocities the full go ahead to use whatever he wants from the old mod, and I'd stay on in more of a consulting role. We discussed this Last night and the new mod should be along the lines of what I was working on, but minus the ships and other graphics I had before the loss.

I'm going to keep the STmod site up, but I might move in to a different web address in the next week or so. I'll redo my current site to feature more info about SE4, StarFury, and other fun Captain Kwok stuff I'll be working on once I my new computer arrives.

Anyways, good luck to Atrocities on this task and I hope he meets his self-imposed timeline. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ June 24, 2003, 17:22: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Erax June 25th, 2003 01:26 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Maybe this is a good time to explain the differences between both mods to us forum-goers who weren't around when work on them began ?

If it's been explained elsewhere, just point me in the right direction.

Atrocities June 26th, 2003 12:55 PM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Heres an update.

1. I have set up the basic features of the mod.
a. The Races are in place
b. The races ship images are organized
c. The neutral races are in place
d. The basic data files are in place
e. The basic race AI is in place
f. The Vehicle.txt file has been established
g. The IntelProject.txt file has been established
h. The cultures.txt file has been established
i. The TechArea.txt file haa been established
j. The RacialTraits.txt file has been established

What I mean by established is that they are set up and ready for testing.

I have ran a test game with a few errors which I have corrected.

===================================
PLEASE NOTE FOR FUTURE REFERENCE:
===================================

1. At this time setting up the System and Quadrant Types will be a low priority. The mod at first will have to use standard SEIV settings.

2. I had to use the Star Trek ship images from NASY for all of the races with the exception of the neutral races.

3. The neutral races will use defualt ship images.

4. At this time I have removed the fighters from the mod. (Each race will have 1 shuttle to begin with.)

5. On some races I had to devate from what Kwok has listed as ship types and images. This can be fixed later if needed.

6. I need help on setting up the pseudo-Newtonian propulsion model for the mod.

7. I need help on setting up the "leaky Armor & Shield" model for the mod.

8. I need help on setting up additional population modifiers to help to reduce or increase construction and production rates for various sized populations.

9. If any one is interested in working on System types and planet settings please let me know.

10. The Mod is on track thus far for a private beta toward the middle of July. If you are interested in signing up for the beta, and can offer help in the areas listed above, please email me at atrocities@astmod.com. I have to limit the amount of beta testers so please only submit your name if you can contribute to the development of the mod.

====================
WHATS NEXT
====================

1. I will start on the Captian Components
2. Start on the race facilities
3. Start on the race components

I have every intention of getting this mod out for play soon. I do not expect to use the Planet image mod but I will be using the Components and Facilities image mods for some items. I may even make a few specific images for things myself.

Question or Comments are welcome.

Erax June 26th, 2003 06:22 PM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Actually, the Borg shield depleter and the Borg tractor beam were two separate weapons that they happened to use in conjunction. At least it seemed that way to me from watching the TNG episodes.

Scipio June 26th, 2003 07:19 PM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Chief Engineer Erax:
Actually, the Borg shield depleter and the Borg tractor beam were two separate weapons that they happened to use in conjunction. At least it seemed that way to me from watching the TNG episodes.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Perhaps I am wrong, but I think I remember that the Borg tractor beeam alone also drained the shields.

Fyron June 26th, 2003 09:10 PM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
AT, make sure to incorporate USM (linked in sig). Makes the game much better IMO.

Atrocities June 26th, 2003 09:43 PM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Scipio those are really good points, thank you. And thanks Fyron, The USM is a must have.

Captain Kwok June 26th, 2003 10:55 PM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Scipio:

In response to your thoughts, this was some of the reasoning behind what I choose...

The Federation would not have relatively good ground troops - overall the Federation is non-combative and their experience would be less than other races that have fought frequent wars. This is also the same reasoning behind the ship defense and attack bonuses. Did you ever see the Federation ships dropping like flies in many DS9 battles? Plus, if we based the Federation exclusively on what we saw in Star Trek - we'd have to give them bonuses in everything and that would be a balance issue against the other races.

The Klingons have a distaste for science and hence why there research is low. Keep in mind also that the Klingons have been in space much longer than the Federation, but have advanced at a much slower rate. The production bonus is appropriate to the warrior race motif, and really doesn't make much difference anyways. The Klingons do enjoy some good combat bonuses which during early testing did help in battle.

The Romulan shipyard rate was set lower because they spend a lot of resources building oversized Warbirds that have a seemingly poor combat record for what you'd expect them to do. The Romulans are also portrayed as rather secretive and isolationist, so why would they be out and about trading so much? The honorable demeanor could be changed, but Romulans hold honor in more an individual patroitic sort of way.

The Dominion didn't really trade in the Gamma Quadrant...it was more like extortion. The increase in shipyard rate would help pump out more smaller attack ships, but wouldn't really make a difference with big ships due to their high cost.

I suppose the points about Cardassians are somewhat valid, but then again the Cardassians are a much more militaristic culture and it would seem reasonable to believe that they are better trained in combat situations than the typical starfleet officer. I gave them +5 for intelligence since they seemed quite renowned for it and plus, they needed a bit of a bonus somewhere else. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Remember, not all spying is done undercover...don't you remember Quark - seemed he knew lots about everything - Ferengi deal in information a lot you know!

The Borg can and do research - although it's true that most of the stuff they get is assimilated. Being truthful, you could give the Borg culture bonuses for almost everything if you think about it. I believe the shield depleter and tractor beam are different, and anyways you couldn't assign a se4 weapon with both those abilities anyway.

Scipio June 27th, 2003 12:42 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Kwok:

It was often said, and written in the ,,Tech" books that the Federation Shields are awesome strong, this was so in every StarTrek game too.
And the Federation soldiers are no soldiers but all have an excellent training, thats one of their main points.

The Klingons surley dont worthship research as much fighting, but they had several good scientist in Star Trek, to compare with the Federation is not fair, because the Federation is the best researching race by far. The Klingons also developed some Techs the Federation took ofer later (Photon Torpedos...) and they are not badder than the Romulans/Vulcans although they were even less time in space then them.

The Romulans build at least these large Warbirds, and in wich numbers! That they are poor fighters (at least they match the Galaxyclass and Neg`Var class) shouldn`t be a cause to build less of them. And Romulans are the treachery race per excellance even in their own society, see how the high ranks are given...

You are right with the Dominion.

The Cardassians always need a boost http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif but see they were conquered by the Klingons, defeated by the Federation and the minor partner of the Dominon. I think at least they should have a point less than the Rom/Dom. And again the Card count mass more than quality and do not worthship a single beeing (Communists/Stalinists). I dont know what to do with them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif but they should have bad Production/Happy and neutral Strenght in ship/ground, Communism just dont works http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

You are right with the Ferengis but this work but then they would be as good as Fed/Kling.

Right with the Borg, bad you cant make a weapon out of it.

Again I like your work very much, just a few ideas.

openair June 27th, 2003 01:03 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
personally, 1on1, fed troops should be stronger, but WAY more expensive...

think personal shield generators, phaser rifles, photon genernades, ect...

vs some armor, bat'leth, and a disruptor, maybe a knife, ect...

[ June 27, 2003, 00:04: Message edited by: openair ]

Scipio June 27th, 2003 01:28 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Wonderful you continue this great idea.

I saw the Star Trek Mod and the graphics are very nice, espacally the leader pictures (very cute).

Thank you you do all this work.

Scipio June 27th, 2003 01:28 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Doublepost, sorry.

I just will make another post out of it now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

May I ask how much you will copy the original Star Trek mod?

I looked through the original one and:
I saw there should be a Borg Tractor beam:
Quote:

Borg Tractor Beam I-III [Beam; Pulls Target]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And I tought every race should have a tractor beam best if it is small (like 1kt) because there are nearly no ships without it in Star Trek, further it should be a Repulser and Tractor beam at once. The Borg tractor beam should be the same but larger and shield depleting (as it was in TNG).
Then I saw the race statistics.
Federation:
Quote:

Production -2 Research +4 Intelligence -4 Trade +4 Happiness +3
Space Combat -2 Ground Combat -4 Shipyard Rate +1 Repair +1 Maintenance +1
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I wonder about the ground combat because the federation soldiers are not very hard but not that bad in my oppionon, further the Federation ships are only science ships but also very good warships, because of their strong defense/shields. So they should have a bad offense and a good defense.

Klingons:
Quote:

Production -3 Research -4 Intelligence -3 Trade -2 Happiness +3
Space Combat +4 Ground Combat +5 Shipyard Rate -1 Repair -1 Maintenance +2
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The poor Klingons! I can understand why the should produce so little and are so bad at research. Sure they are not very smart but a research malus of -2 would fit more and why this high production malus? I think an 0 would be best as they worship hard work much too.

Romulans:
Quote:

Production +3 Research +1 Intelligence +5 Trade -4 Happiness -3
Space Combat +3 Ground Combat +2 Shipyard Rate -2 Repair 0 Maintenance -1
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think the romulans have so many Warbirds in their fleet, they should be able to have at least a neutral shipyard rate wich would fit the production bonus more. And I dont think the romulans are such poor trades -2 or -1 would be better. And I think the romulans should be agressiv not honorable (wich they are absolutly not)

Dominion:
Quote:

Production 0 Research -2 Intelligence +5 Trade -5 Happiness -4
Space Combat +3 Ground Combat +5 Shipyard Rate +2 Repair -3 Maintenance -3
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Didn`t they say in Star Trek that the dominion did much trade in the Gamma Quadrant? I am unsure.
And I think the Dominion has many small ships and few large, wouldn`t that speak for a negative ShipRate?

Cardassia:
Quote:

Production -2 Research 0 Intelligence +5 Trade -2 Happiness -3
Space Combat +3 Ground Combat +3 Shipyard Rate +2 Repair 0 Maintenance -2
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In Star Trek they said that the Cardassians are not much stronger than the humans (GC +3?) and that they depend on many weak but numerous ships (SC +3?) also they are good at Intelleigence but not as good as the Dominion and Romulans!

Ferngi:
Quote:

Production +3 Research -3 Intelligence +2 Trade +5 Happiness +3
Space Combat -5 Ground Combat -5 Shipyard Rate 0 Repair 0 Maintenance -3
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I cant belive Ferengis are good spies, they look differnent and will betray everyone for some money. I just cant imagine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Borg:
Quote:

Production +3 Research 0 Intelligence -5 Trade -10 Happiness 0
Space Combat 0 Ground Combat 0 Shipyard Rate +3 Repair +5 Maintenance +5
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do the Borg research at all? I think they steal all technology? At least they should be worse than klingons.

And further I think all other Races like the Breen should be not as good as the others just gap filler (Ice planets for the Breen)

I just thought that and thought it may help to hear someone to that, and I want to say that I love what is still left from the Original Star Trek mod...

[ June 26, 2003, 15:27: Message edited by: Scipio ]

TerranC June 27th, 2003 01:56 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by openair:
personally, 1on1, fed troops should be stronger, but WAY more expensive...

think personal shield generators, phaser rifles, photon genernades, ect...

vs some armor, bat'leth, and a disruptor, maybe a knife, ect...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'd like to remind you that Federation Troops get slaughtered against confrontations with the Jem'Hadar, Klingons, The Borg, and Cardassians. That, to me, doesn't sound like the best troops in the whole galaxy.

openair June 27th, 2003 03:20 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
when have we seen them slaughtered? against overwelming odds.. yes...

but one fed to one klink, the klinks gonna go down
not at close range, but in a normal battle sittuation, 1on1, klinks going down...

the fed don't field many troops, but what ones they do are very well armed, and experienced... i know they're games, but think elite force, and incursion (i think? the holo cloak ship game...)

but the klingons could probably build 3 times as many for the space price...

use different troops classes dependent on the race technogies... fed being far more expiense, for a little more room... klingon being slightly smaller but cheaper...

[ June 27, 2003, 02:22: Message edited by: openair ]

General Woundwort June 27th, 2003 04:23 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by openair:
personally, 1on1, fed troops should be stronger, but WAY more expensive...

think personal shield generators, phaser rifles, photon genernades, ect...

vs some armor, bat'leth, and a disruptor, maybe a knife, ect...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Quote - "If you load a mudfoot down with a lot of gadgets that he has to watch, somebody a lot more simply equipped - say with a stone ax - will sneak up and bash his head in while he is trying to read a vernier." Robert Heinlein, Starship Troopers

or if that doesn't change your mind, remember the Fuzzy Wuzzy Fallacy - if side A has 2X raw firepower as compared with side B, it actually only equates to (square root of 2)X more firepower... assuming that one shot from either side kills just as dead.

openair June 27th, 2003 04:46 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
who said anything about gadgets, i hardly call a personal forced field for example a gadget...

and quotes that only barely relate make for great debate! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fyron June 27th, 2003 05:22 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Cardassians are a far cry from Communists...

Federation personnel do not possess personal forcefields.

Quote:

And the Federation soldiers are no soldiers but all have an excellent training, thats one of their main points.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, but it can not compare to first hand experience that Klingon, Romulan, Cardassian, Gem'Hadar, etc. warriors recieve.

[ June 27, 2003, 04:32: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

BeenAssimilated June 27th, 2003 06:23 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Federation personnel do not possess personal forcefields.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, they do. Starfleet Marines (seen in DS9) have a elliptical energy field that they hold out in front of them like a shield. Look at this link:
Security Ordinance

Scipio June 27th, 2003 08:31 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Cardassians are a far cry from Communists...

Federation personnel do not possess personal forcefields.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> And the Federation soldiers are no soldiers but all have an excellent training, thats one of their main points.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, but it can not compare to first hand experience that Klingon, Romulan, Cardassian, Gem'Hadar, etc. warriors recieve.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For me Cardassians are the communists of the Star Trek universe not quite the same (but who is that?) but near to that.
Further I agree that Fed,Troops have no personal shields, it was never seen in the series and this pages refers to a comic wich I wouldn`t count. Sure they could have shields, but K/R/D/C could have that too.
Further I think the D/K training of their troops is best but the training of the Romulans/Cardassians and Federation is equal to each other. And dont forget the Federation would have the best equipment/weapons.

Fyron June 27th, 2003 10:37 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by BeenAssimilated:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Federation personnel do not possess personal forcefields.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, they do. Starfleet Marines (seen in DS9) have a elliptical energy field that they hold out in front of them like a shield. Look at this link:
Security Ordinance
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Looks like artistic liscence to me. I never saw any such thing in any ST episode or movie. And even so, that is hardly a personal forcefield in the normal sense of the word. More of a riot shield, not a protective screen around the troop.

Quote:

And dont forget the Federation would have the best equipment/weapons.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The militaristic races would have better militaristic personnel equipment because the Federation does not do very much ground combat. Their force lies in their starships, not their troops. Think of it this way: Federationers are not professional warriors. The Federation does not focus much research into troop equipment and such. The more militaristic races do.

[ June 27, 2003, 09:41: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

General Woundwort June 27th, 2003 10:51 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by openair:
who said anything about gadgets, i hardly call a personal forced field for example a gadget...
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My points - technological superiority and raw firepower do not automatically equate to better troops, or guaranteed victory. Innumerable other factors (elan and fighting experience) come into play.

Just ask Lord Chelmsford after Ishandlwana.

Scipio June 27th, 2003 11:21 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
First my point is that a Klingon warrior and Jem Hadar are much better fighters/troops than any other. But my other point is that the romulans, cardassian on the one side and humans/andorians/vulcans share nearly the same biological strenght. So one point to even their troops strenght.
Further the cardassians are trained poorley but mainly for combat, the romulans are trained well but not only for combat and the Star Fleet personal is trained excellent but only very few in combat. For me its an equal match.
And Further the Cardassians research mainly on Military but they are no high tech race, the Romulans are advance and focus on military goals but also on many other things, and the federation does not focus on military technology but is the advanced by far and gets good phasers/shields because of their other research goals. Its ture that the Romulan PersonelDisrupter is the best Personalweapon in the Alpha Quadrant, better than the advanced Starfleet phaser (not much but they yield more power over more time) but also better than the war purpose only Klingon disruptors (wich are stronger but only dont use the power very well).

Atrocities June 27th, 2003 12:18 PM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
An update:

I have gotten the Componets file organized. I have removed what needed to be removed, including the Quantum Reactor. I don't like it, and I did not want it in the mod.

I have fleshed out the pseudo-Newtonian propulsion model based on proportion, and have set up the VehicleSize.txt file. I have added all tech info to the TechArea.txt file and have adjusted several components by renaming them and or modifying there abilities.

I had no model to follow for engines so I used the system from the AST mod.

5 Impulse Engines
3 Warp Drive engines (1 being available at game start)
3 Extended warp drive engines. (Transwarp, etc)
3 Seperate Quantum Singlarity drives for the Romulans.
3 Custom Race specific engines, Slipstream for the federation, Quantum Slipstream for the Romulans, and Hyper-Conduite Transwarp Drive for the Borg.

I have play tested the mod without errors.

I will now work on weapons.

I left Capital Ship Missle and DUC's as is for general all purpose use. I did however extend the DUC's to Level 10.

Point defense Cannons are now Point Defense Disrupters for general use while the Federation will have better Version named Point Defense Phasers.

I will leave the Cultural modifiers alone for now, but have included the ones from the AST mod as they are quite well balanced. (When setting up your empire you can choose)

I have editied the General.txt files for all major races to include the descriptions from Kwoks web site. They are all quite good Captain, far better than the ones I had. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

All in all it was a productive day until I started watching the Discovery Channel. Then the day went poof.

Captain Kwok June 27th, 2003 04:32 PM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Atrocities:

I had started composing an e-mail explaining the engine model I used and the shield system but I didn't get a chance to finish it yet. I'll try and get it done tonight and send it off to you.

Others:

Re: Federation strength - I would think with the size of the Federation that they would enjoy a numerical advantage in terms of troops and such once they got organized. Of course, you can also claim they needed to defend much more space...

Erax June 27th, 2003 05:52 PM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Regarding ground troops : are Romulans as strong as Vulcans ? If so, their troop strength should take that into account. Being able to aim and fire a 16-kg disruptor as well as a human would aim and fire an 8-kg phaser rifle MUST make a difference.

Also, there was a change in the race profile of the Romulans from the classic series to TNG. Which Version will you use ? (I think it will be TNG, because their apperance in the classic series was limited to one episode).

Fyron June 27th, 2003 08:49 PM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Romulans should be as strong as Vulcans, as they share almost identical physiology. I believe they have at least been shown to be much stronger than humans.

Atrocities June 27th, 2003 09:52 PM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Actually Erax they were in more than one episode. Two that I can specifically recal. Balance of Terror, a brillant episode, and the one where they steal the Cloaking device.

The romulans will be based on the TNG era. All races currently have the cultural modifiers that Captain Kwok, (The real kwok) had listed on his web site.

Personaly I feel the romulans are scemers, but in many games they are protrayed as honorable. It is the Tal"Shiar that is not honorable.

And the Obsidian Order for the Cardassians was listed as the BEST intelligance organization in the quadrant. That is until the Dominion arrived.

Erax June 27th, 2003 10:22 PM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
The old series Romulans were portrayed as honorable. Their social structure was based on the Roman Empire. In TNG they become schemers (perhaps to compensate for the fact that the TNG Klingons suddenly become honorable, which they were NOT in the old series).

About that cloaking device episode... are you sure ? Kirk, Spock and McCoy stealing the cloaking device from the Romulans ? I don't remember that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

[ June 27, 2003, 21:23: Message edited by: Chief Engineer Erax ]

openair June 27th, 2003 10:27 PM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by General Woundwort:
My points - technological superiority and raw firepower do not automatically equate to better troops, or guaranteed victory. Innumerable other factors (elan and fighting experience) come into play.

Just ask Lord Chelmsford after Ishandlwana.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">did i say automatically? i siad in a one on one fight... and how about ask iraq after the gulf war... not a single a1m2 abrhams was lost to enemy fire in that war... i think thats a pretty good case for supperior fire power and tech...

ZeroAdunn June 27th, 2003 10:29 PM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
You bet they did. Never used it again, it was never even seen in the series again.

Atrocities June 27th, 2003 10:39 PM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
If you don't remember the episode that they did that in what will really fry your bacon is trying to figure out why the klingons look human in TOS yet in the DS( episode "Trial and Tribulation" Worf states when asked what is up, that it is something the Empire does not speak of.

I have a theory on this. The old Klingons needed to destabalize the Federation and the best way to do that was to assume a human appearence and harass other races thus making them think that the Humans were behind it.

After the Human look alikes played their mind games with new races, the true looking Klingons would come in and pretent to free the new race from the Human oppressors. Not knowing that this was a sceme the new race would turn down the Federations trade offers in favor of the Klingons.

A truly low thing to do, but an effective method of fostering mistrust of humans.

The Romulans were honorable in TOS, it was proven, in TNG they took on the role of the TOS Klingons who were not. This role reversal has been widely debated among Trek fans for years. The Klingons are not honorable, they are warriors by nature and are willing to be weasles to win.

The Romulans were a lot like the Vulcans except that they are very aggressive when they feel they have the upper hand.

--Crap I was just bitten by a brown spider!--

Erax June 28th, 2003 12:22 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
I'm sorry to hear about the spider thing. If it's anything like the variety we have down here, kill it and take it with you to a place where you can get an antidote NOW.

The bite of the Brazilian brown spider doesn't hurt at first, but the next day the bite wound will look like a meteor impact crater. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Jack Simth June 28th, 2003 12:41 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Chief Engineer Erax:
About that cloaking device episode... are you sure ? Kirk, Spock and McCoy stealing the cloaking device from the Romulans ? I don't remember that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I do - McCoy wasn't in on it until the Romulan commander called him over to asses Kirk's sanity.

Captain Kwok June 28th, 2003 12:47 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
The episode was 'The Enterprise Incident'...

...I hate the whole Klingon forehead debate. Klingons were always intended to have the ridges - it just wasn't in the budget for the original series - even Gene Roddenberry said so himself.

I think the writers of DS9's 'Trials and Tribble-ations' added that Worf line just to drive nutcase Trekkie canon junkies crazier.

[ June 27, 2003, 23:47: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Atrocities June 28th, 2003 01:08 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Captain Kwok:
The episode was 'The Enterprise Incident'...

...I hate the whole Klingon forehead debate. Klingons were always intended to have the ridges - it just wasn't in the budget for the original series - even Gene Roddenberry said so himself.

I think the writers of DS9's 'Trials and Tribble-ations' added that Worf line just to drive nutcase Trekkie canon junkies crazier.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I hate the debate as well, so I formulated my theory and floated it around some Trek forums. Oh man did that ever stir the hornets nest.

I get enough flak from them about my star trek ships not being cannon and then I go and drop this enigma bomb in their laps.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Thank Erax, the spider is in a jar now, and the spot on my leg where the little bugger bit me is rather red and puffy. The Advise Nurse said to keep an eye on it and if it starts to show red lines coming away from it to call 911. The problem is I can not find the 11 button on my phone. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

They are called Brown Reckloose up here, and they are very bad and ill tempored little ****s, yet highly intelligant. It is a shame that they are not as smart as the little black bastards I see running around my house all the time. Those multi-legged things are super smart cat bait. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ June 28, 2003, 00:12: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

DeadZone June 28th, 2003 01:50 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Atrocities:
An update:

I have gotten the Componets file organized. I have removed what needed to be removed, including the Quantum Reactor. I don't like it, and I did not want it in the mod.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Too rite. I dont believe it is needed, tell me, in Star Trek did u ever see a ship go forever without needin to get some sort of fresh supplies? Thought not

Atrocities June 30th, 2003 03:44 PM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
An Update:

1. I have finished all of the Captain Components.
2. I added a second level to all Captain Componets.
3. I have finsihed with the Federation Components.
4. I have finished with the Federation Weapons.

The weapons and components making is going slow. It took me all night to do the 4 things above.

I have play tested the mod and no errors thus far.

I will need to redo all of the Research.txt's for each race in order to get the AI's to research and use the new weapons and components. That will take a lot of time.

I have also decided to keep all of the orignal ship images with each race just in case the game wants them.

I have used Kwoks models for Armor and Shields. Thank you for the email Kwok, it was very helpful.

I have also finished with the propulsion model. I used a combination of Kwoks original concept and that from Proportion and the AST Mod. Thank you G.W. for the help as well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thus far I have only recieved three emails from people interested in helping beta test the mod. When it is ready, about the middle of the month, I will need people to play it and offer suggestions for the final Version. Also to bug test it and offer critisims about things that do not work.

Regarding the Captain Components:
I used the race portrait images that Kwok has made for the four races that Kwok has made them for. The remainder races have a generic image. If Kwok can make more race images, then fantastic, they will always have a home or two.

I will continue to work on the Components and Weapons for the remaining 9 races. Then onto the Facilities. Finally before the mod beta the Research files.

I read somewhere where Kwok had listed a component named the Inertial Dampeners (Sp), can any one provide info on this? In Captain if you read this could you list as many custome and shared components that you can recall. I already have the lists for the races from your web site, but nothing to do with the above mentioned component.

[ June 30, 2003, 14:44: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Atrocities June 30th, 2003 04:52 PM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Kwok, I am having a bit of a problem understanding what it is you want the Federation Component Troops to be. The same for the 8472 Troops.

What I did for the Federation Troop, was use the Troop Cockpit and give it an armor value. The same for the one troop 8472 component.

I might ditch these two components in favor of something more interesting. For 8472 I was thinking of using the Acid Globule both small and large. (Damages Shields and armor)

For the Federation Tri-Cobolt Torpedo. (double damage to shields.)

What do you think?

Captain Kwok June 30th, 2003 08:57 PM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Atrocities:

The component was the Structural Integrity Field. It's basically a 0kT comp with 10-50kT structure that has the armor ability. In Trek, it helps to reinforce the hull. In the mod, it's sort of helpful since it gives a ship a bit of a break on the first strike through the shields.

The 'Troops' were intended as 1kT components for troop units only. They had a small weapon ability of a few hitpoints. For example, you could make a little transport that carried 5-6 troops that would be equivalent to a tank troop or something like that. You could call the Fed troops 'Marines' etc...

Scipio June 30th, 2003 10:54 PM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Did I mention I like the race pics from Kwok very very much? WONDERFUL!

Atrocities July 1st, 2003 03:16 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
Thanks Kwok, that helps a lot. Now only if you could make more race pictures or tell me if you have any posted here that I can use. Dominion, Ferengi, Breen, Tholian, Borg, or 8472.

Captain Kwok July 1st, 2003 04:09 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
There is a Dominion race image on the website, and I did have the Borg queen, but that was lost. I'm still waiting for my computer (should have come today http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif but it wasn't delivered for some strange reason) so I won't be up to my normal activities to at least Wednesday night.

Atrocities July 1st, 2003 04:22 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
When you get it would like me to email what I have done over to you?

Atrocities July 1st, 2003 07:29 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
UPDATE:

I have finished the 8472 and Borg Race Weapons and components.

I have added a few components to the Borg to give them a an equal weapons footing compared to the other races. (Each race will have a basic primary weapon)

I remade the 8472, Federation, and Borg troop into a Troop Component. I also added a second and third level to them all.

I have play tested the mod and it seems to be working just fine thus far. No errors.

Atrocities July 1st, 2003 02:26 PM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
UPDATE:

I have completed the components for the Breen, Cardassians, and Dominion. Any one who thinks this process is easy should stay up all night and join me.

It is very slow process and I have a lot of respect for any one who undertakes a mod. Kwok did fantastic leg work on this mod and it shows. Without his web site and work I could not have gotten this far this fast. Thank you Captain Spoogy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

When the mod is ready for beta testing I will send the beta to those who have emailed me with interest in being a beta tester. atrocities@astmod.com

The fine tunning of the mod will happen during the beta. If we are lucky perhaps Captain Kwok will take an interest in it and go through what I have doen and tweak it. I have endevored to keep the components and weapons in line with what he has posted, but there are many items that have little or no info that I have had to wing it on.

One area that I am really interested in having feed back on is Research costs per item.

I have had to go back and make several fixes on items. I have learned that Regular items and Mini Version of the same item need differant numbers or you end up with odd happenings. I hope I have gotten them all, but only a true beta test will tell.

We are one step closer to having a Star Trek Mod.

Captain Kwok July 2nd, 2003 12:48 AM

Re: STM "Final v1.7.5" Discussion
 
If there are weapons or components that you were not sure of from the website, just send me an e-mail and I'll get back to you on what I intended their function to be.

Looks like you are making speedy progress - keep it up!


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