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-   -   MBT's (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45260)

Marcello May 8th, 2010 09:29 AM

Re: MBT's
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH (Post 744907)
Where's IMP? John thought you might find (and others of course!) this interesting as I recall you did some reporting on India's
T-90's. Doing a source check I was wondering what news there was on India's "competition" between the ARJUN and their T-90's. Based on this article the ARJUN did better then expected, as predicted by the evaluation conducted on the ARJUN by the as yet unnamed foreign major tank manufacturer. This just could really shake things up for India's Army not to mention their POSSIBLE export potential. Will follow this, see original post #9 (?)on pg. 1. Here's the update:
http://www.army-technology.com/news/news82347.html
Also no reply from IMI on the email I sent about the Turkish M60T. Might have to go with what I got and all of you be the judge.
Regards,
Pat

The Arjun may have done better than expected and additional ones will be likely purchased but I doubt the indian Army will do a full 180┬░on its T-90/T-72 based procurement plans.
And, to be honest, the choice of an indigenous rifled 120mm instead of a NATO ammunition compatible 120mm smoothbore or a
125mm is an unwise move. It means that new developments in the field of tank ammunition cannot be leveraged directly and developing new rounds forn a small number of tanks will be rather unattractive.

FASTBOAT TOUGH May 8th, 2010 11:10 AM

Re: MBT's
 
I agree about the gun compatibility issue but, this could be a case of we just don't know yet also. It almost seems from the tone of the article(s) that India was surprised by the ARJUN's performance given the extremely long developmental process that took place to get it to this point. The ARJUN was designed to replace India's 2400 T-72 tanks and to save the cost of modernizing them, though this process has been ongoing over the last couple of years or longer. Not a munitions expert but, doesn't England have the same issue with the Challenger II MBT as it uses a rifled 120mm main gun or (SB vs. RB) does that matter?
Regards,
Pat

Marcello May 8th, 2010 01:25 PM

Re: MBT's
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH (Post 744944)
I agree about the gun compatibility issue but, this could be a case of we just don't know yet also. It almost seems from the tone of the article(s) that India was surprised by the ARJUN's performance given the extremely long developmental process that took place to get it to this point. The ARJUN was designed to replace India's 2400 T-72 tanks and to save the cost of modernizing them, though this process has been ongoing over the last couple of years or longer.

As far as I know the indian Army never liked the Arjun and resisted it at every step, they preferred the T-72/T-90.
It was the industry which pushed it.
Now, the latest rounds of trials might have changed that a bit, so that more than 124 might be built and perhaps a few less
T-90 but I doubt the difference will be by an order of magnitude.

Quote:

Not a munitions expert but, doesn't England have the same issue with the Challenger II MBT as it uses a rifled 120mm main gun or (SB vs. RB) does that matter?
Regards,
Yes, it matters to the point that the british published plans to regun the Challanger with standard smoothbores some time ago, precisely for this reason. And keep in mind that the Challanger series is in service in a couple of others countries in addition to the UK, something the Arjun probably will not achieve. Yet it still isn't a pool large enough to make ammunition development and production an economical proposition.

Imp May 8th, 2010 02:46 PM

Re: MBT's
 
Hi Pat not really being following but I dont think they were surprised at all, at least people in the know seemed pretty confident it would do well.
The ammo thing is crazy though especially if you are going to have 2 MBTs shared ammo has got to be a priority both logisticaly & development wise.

FASTBOAT TOUGH May 13th, 2010 01:47 AM

Re: MBT's
 
2 Attachment(s)
This will require some patience however I think in regards to the M60T I've "threaded the needle" on it to be able to present this to all of you. Further info are on posts #15 and #17 of this thread. I believe this will support the Turkish M60A3 IMI ST currently in WinSPMBT with the first source for background info. The next two will support the further upgrades done to the M60A1 or as designated for Turkey as the M60T. The M60T will need to be added to the game from what I can tell. Let's get started as I've spent more time on this then most others due to some confusion in sources between the M60A3 or M60A1 being the Turkish M60T.
Turkey/M60T/2007/C4/120mm SB 42Rds, 7.62mm 6KRds, 12.7mm 900Rds and a 60mm Mortor./
SABRA was designed to be a further upgrade to IDF M60A3 but was relegated to the export market with the further development of the MERKAVA MBTs. The SABRA Mods used many features from the MERKAVA MBTs from armor pkgs, weapons, electronics to suspension systems. Important to note on SABRA MKII & MKIII in upper left the designation of the M60A1 in those sources.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1801.html
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product4281.html and
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3217.html
Further sources to support M60A1 as M60T:
Unofficial Turkish military site:
http://www.turkishworld.multiservers.com/equipment.html
Oldest to newest timeline articles:
http://www.tanksim.com/topic7.htm
http://www.elbitsystems.com/newsRoom...04&s_month=All
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/136893
http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/546/ and
http://www.defense-update.com/featur..._15042010.html
Based again on these with a through read of the articles the
M60T is at the SABRA MKIII Mod. What is certain is on the surface of it the M60T should at a minimum be a better protected and more maneuverable MBT then the M60A3 IMI ST. The date for fielding the M60T is subjective but I believe is correct from what I could piece together. Note Columbia's interest in the M60T something to watch for.
Pics simply for comparison purposes:
Attachment 10110 Attachment 10111
Still no word from IMI, though Elbit systems source helps.
Regards,
Pat

FASTBOAT TOUGH May 14th, 2010 02:20 AM

Re: MBT's
 
Indian MOD announced a restructuring of the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO), among the projects to be continued will be the ARJUN MKII and AKASH MKII MBT programs.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/15208/
Regards,
Pat

Imp May 14th, 2010 07:34 AM

Re: MBT's
 
The Indians do seem to get there on the R&D front which seems to have been noticed by Russia to can see them angling for more cooperation in the future.
Yes they take a bit longer but thats probably down to spending.
What they do need to do is improve quality control on manufacturing as that does seem there downfall.
In fact most nations with a potentialy hostile neighbour at least one seems to do pretty well with home grown stuff. Israel, North Korea to name but two.
The bonus to this is also the equipment is designed for your enviroment & in North Koreas case while money is puting a temporary hold on play they are fast catching the big hitters. If there new IFV is anything as good as its supposed to be can see that being a big export at the costs they are talking about. Probably like a Korean car not the best does the job but lacks the finnesse that makes it great. But it only costs 1/3rd the price and there cars are getting better but remaining cheap. Some of their small arms stuff looks really nice to of course a lot of it looks based on USA stuff just tweaked a bit.
Funny thought I had modern small arms use of plastics to keep weight down & compact designs some look more like toy guns than toy guns ever have.
Some support weapons look like modern art all sweeping lines curved tripods etc.
Functional as no sharp edges & curve allows flex to help absorb recoil.

Marcello May 14th, 2010 01:35 PM

Re: MBT's
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Imp (Post 745566)
Yes they take a bit longer but thats probably down to spending.
What they do need to do is improve quality control on manufacturing as that does seem there downfall.

Most emerging industrial powers have similar issues. A long, long time ago japanese exports were cheap, not so good stuff too. When I hear people talking about how the chinese or others will never be able to make anything on par with the West I can't help but :re:
Just wait some more years...

Quote:

In fact most nations with a potentialy hostile neighbour at least one seems to do pretty well with home grown stuff. Israel, North Korea to name but two.
I suspect you are confusing North Korea with South Korea. North Korea is a dying country with a devastated economy. To the extent they are still producing military hardware, in limited quantity and even then only thanks to their codified "Military First" policy, it is almost exclusively modified variants of obsolete soviet and chinese vehicles and weapons.

Imp May 14th, 2010 05:42 PM

Re: MBT's
 
Quote:

I suspect you are confusing North Korea with South Korea
Indeed always get the 2 the wrong way round

FASTBOAT TOUGH May 17th, 2010 08:58 PM

Re: MBT's
 
As I thought, I had a feeling about this and ...well anyway India wasting no time, they've just ordered an additional 124 ARJUN tanks these will be of the MKII variety. All current 124
MBTs are and will be fitted to the MKII version as well with upgraded armor packages and top ERA added to the Russian T-90 standard or better as is suggested by some.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/15266/
Regards,
Pat


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