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-   -   Info: Jack-In-The-Box (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=52859)

shahadi April 28th, 2022 01:22 AM


“Experts say battlefield images show Russian tanks are suffering from a defect that Western militaries have known about for decades and refer to as the "jack-in-the-box effect."



Aeraaa April 28th, 2022 04:42 AM

Re: Jack-In-The-Box
Mmmyeah, that is a distinct Russian trait:




Karagin April 28th, 2022 01:19 PM

Re: Jack-In-The-Box
Uhmm most tanks will pop the turret when the ammo cooks off, it's not just a Russian issue. Hence why many Western tanks have the CASE(Cellular Ammunition Storage Equipment) system, where the blast gets vented out the back of the turret. Russians don't have that and many nations don't. Really wish CNN would do some research before they push out misleading information.

Mobhack April 28th, 2022 01:50 PM

Re: Jack-In-The-Box
Russian tanks do the "flying frying pan" rather more often, its a consequence of the ammo carousel being wrapped round the crew.

But they have been doing that since the T-62 at least, the press only just found out about it so its Shock! Horror! Amazing! New! to them, despite anyone with any interest in military matters knowing this fact for 40 odds years.

The press has no depth of knowledge of anything bar maybe the Kartrashians, and the attention span of a gnat. If they even have a degree these reporters will have one in Arts&Farts or Politics, never ever anything technical.

MarkSheppard April 28th, 2022 04:10 PM

Re: Jack-In-The-Box

Originally Posted by Aeraaa (Post 852388)
Mmmyeah, that is a distinct Russian trait

Russian tanks are very dense and compact -- there's not a lot of room for an incoming round to go that doesn't hit something important.

It's worth noting that the carousel autoloader on the T-64 and later T-72, leading into the T-80 and T-90 can't be effectively or easily protected from ammo cook off, the way that traditional stowed rounds could be -- e.g. Shermans with (W) had glycol filled jackets around ammo stowage bins to prevent precisely this from happening.

Any tank can explode like that from on board ammunition cooking off; the difference is...

Russian "Modern" Tanks from T-64 onwards: Explodes within 5 seconds; very little chance for crew to escape.

Russian "Old" Tanks (T-62/55/54): Ammo explosion likely within 1 minute; due to the "density" e.g. they're very cramped to maximize armor for weight, making them cook off faster.

"Old" US/UK Tanks (Wet Stowage Shermans, Pershings, etc and Centurion): You probably have 2 or 3 minutes, because there's so much empty space inside the tank vs Russian

"Modern" US/UK Tanks (Abrams, Challenger): You probably have 10-15 minutes of a fire before ammo cookoff.

You can see how this affects crew survivability...

zovs66 April 28th, 2022 05:32 PM

Re: Jack-In-The-Box
When I was in circa 1987-91 the M1A1 had ammo blast doors behind the TC and loader, and the rounds pointed to the rear, in the event of cook offs the tank was designed to have the rounds blast out the back, plus we had built in fire extinguishers in the crew compartments.

We we fought against the Iraqi Republican Guard, we faced T-55 and T-72s. The 55s were a complete joke, no hydraulic turret, wooden handles and manual gun sights, they are death coffins, pieces of junk. The T-72s were really not that much better in ‘91 either, we knew there max range was about 1500 to 1800, so we’d park at 2400-4000 and pick them off.

After seeing how Russia is currently operating in 2022, I have no fear of them, they suck big balls of steaming crap.

MarkSheppard April 28th, 2022 09:31 PM

Re: Jack-In-The-Box
Another thing that needs to be looked at is the ammo density for some Russian stuff -- look at the BMP-3/BMP-4 and BMD-3/BMD-4.

They have about 35-40 x 100mm rounds plus 500-600 30mm rounds.

If I was able to pull the 30mm 2A72 cannon (84 kg weight) plus it's 500 rounds (200 kg), I'd have 284 kg (626 lbs) that I could devote to little things like fire suppression, spall curtains, etc etc; and maybe some sort of ammo rack for the 100mm ammo; I think I'd be able to make the BMP/BMP sort of not explode in a massive fireball when hit by the average weapon.

But the "combat capability" would be reduced....:re:

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