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Not so welcome
Description
In this battle, the British 12th Armored Brigade defends against a Russian heavy brigade, which is rumored to be equipped with the latest addition to the Russian arsenal: the dreaded Armata tank. In addition to that, the British defense is made more complicated by the fact that several German forces have turned sides and are fighting against the Brits (former East Germans? I’m surprised the German intelligence hasn’t found out about them. *sigh* the Germans aren’t what they used to be anymore...). The main objective is to prevent the Russians from using the main road to further exploit their success and capture the important city of Bremen. British forces have to defend this piece of land at all costs. Deployment The map of the battle area is below. The pink areas represent the (approximate area of) objectives. These are the towns of Karlshofen and Barkhausen, the town of Glinstent (which is occupied by the rebel Germans) and the roads leading to Lilliental and Bremen. https://imgur.com/esFvexP The British force is composed of: 1)The HQ of the 12th Armored Brigade. 2) An AT company that screens the brigade. 3)The Recce of the Tank Regiment 4-to-6) The 3 squadrons of the Royal Tank Regiment 7) The Recce of the Welsh Regiment’s battalion 8-to-10) The 3 companies of the Welsh Regiment. The battalion is deployed on the south side of the battlefield and one of its initial objectives is to neutralize the threat at Glinstedt. 11) Support elements of the battalion. The SP mortar section as well as the Pioneer platoon are visible on the map, although the AT elements (Javelin teams) are attached to several of the rifle platoons. 12)Recce of Mercian regiment’s battalion 13-to-15) The 3 companies of the Mercian regiment’s battalion. The battalion is mostly protecting the northern side of the battlefield. 16) The support company of Mercian battalion. Again, SP mortars and engineers only, the Javelin teams are with the riflemen. 17) A Stormer SAM platoon. They are the sole AA protection for the Brigade. The British force seems very strong in the Recon and AT department, as well as in the heavily armored Challengers. What I find worrisome is the weakness in artillery, however I hope the air force assets that I have will prove enough to compensate. Several Apache helos are also inbound as reinforcements. My plan is generally just defense, with the exception of the attack towards Glinstent. If I get pressed hard enough, the flanks will retreat towards the rear. I hope that I can channel the Russian forces inside a killzone where the tanks at AT weaponry of the northern and the southern wing can score a lot of kills. |
Re: Not so welcome
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Re: Not so welcome
Turns 1-5
https://i.imgur.com/oZa6mDq.png What happens when you forget to give orders to all of your units? Disaster, that's what happens! I cycled through all of my units, got a basic plan to work with and I forgot that my forces in Glinstent have visual on enemy infantry. The result? Immediate firefights and enemy infantry targeting my Warriors and Ajax IFVs with portable ATs. I quickly lose 5 vehicles from close range AT fire and I cause way less damage in return. The moment my turn comes, all surviving vehicles pop smoke and target enemy identified infantry thanks to their TI sights. In addition, since Warriors prove to be highly vulnerable, I assign one Challenger platoon to assist the infantry in the town in clearing it from enemy infantry. The Russian artillery makes its appearance (3). 240mm mortar fire and 152mm DPICM fire cause havoc among the attacking British company. More Warrior vehicles are destroyed, as well as two rifle squads. British reply with mortar fire that suppresses the German infantry and the Russian Spetsnaz and the infantry, together with the Challenger platoon make short work of the majority of them. Meanwhile, Soviet armor appears in the centre. Scout vehicles, plus Armata tanks, T-15 IFVs and BMP-2s. Javelin ATs open fire and destroy two BRDMs. The Soviet forces advance quickly across the open ground. British Javelin teams, Challenger tanks and 40mm cannon fire cause significant losses among the vehicles. Russians reply and a couple of Javelin teams, as well as one Jackal light vehicle are neutralized. The British defenders that open fire are shown as (1), the Russian forces as (2) First 5 turns are packed with action. Russian force looks very menacing, and I’ll probably start hit and run tactics with my armor very soon. Even the supposedly inferior force in Glinstent is very dangerous, as they act as spotters for artillery. I haven’t commited my air force yet, though I saw around 4 Tunguskas and maybe I’ll make some air strikes once I suppress them with artillery or SEAD aircraft. Russian armor is very tough, with even the T-15 IFV variant frequently surviving tank shots from more than 3kms. Thus, I’m very happy that I knocked out 5 of them, plus a T-14 MBT and several BMP-2s and BRDMs. The price was high for my IFVs assaulting the town though, and so far I lost around 3500 points. I have to really slow down my rate of losses if I’m to win this one. |
Re: Not so welcome
Turns 6-10
https://i.imgur.com/GqWWgEA.png In Glinstent (5), British forces are bombarded by BM-27s and are heavily suppressed. British return the favor at their enemies with 81mm mortar fire and neither force is in any condition to fight back for the time being. British decide to bring the Pioneer platoon of the Welsh and they, together with the Challenger platoon, are successful in clearing the western part of the town. One Challenger is damaged by a Panzerfaust hit and I decide to withdraw it from the battlefield since its gun has been damaged. Russian MLRS also hit the Recon platoon at (9), rendering it combat ineffective. Still, if the dismounts survive, they can still spot the enemy, which is the most important. All Russian mechanized forces advance. Position (1) proves to be a kill zone. British artillery (that arrived as reinforcements), tank fire and Javelin missiles combine to destroy any Russian vehicle that appears around this line. Some T-14s open fire at 3+ kms, but at that distance the Challengers that are their target can resist the rounds quite effectively. Challengers themselves have trouble penetrating Russian armor, but there are opportunities to score side shots and it’s these that can knock the enemy out. Challenger positions that open fire at the Russians are at (2), (3), (4) and (7). In general, while the tank and missile fire is fierce, neither side loses a significant amount of vehicles (the British actually do not lose a single tank) since the frontal armor of both sides’ tanks is too thick. In addition to that, British artillery pounds the area, causing casualties among the dismounts. 3 of the artillery platoons though are silenced by MSTA counterbattery fire. The Russians at (6) are comprised mostly of heavy mechanized infantry. They are delayed by British recon forces and hit hard by artillery. They cannot be stopped just by that however. The Russian force at (9) leads with IFVs, which are devastated by Javelin fire. All vehicles are knocked out. Behind them, a company of T-14 MBTs follows. Two T-14s are hit by portable AT from infantrymen and are knocked out. The infantry is not enough to stop the Russians though and for that, the Challenger platoon inside the town is taking ambush positions to hit the Russian armor hopefully from the sides. Two Russian UAVs appear, with one of them shot down by Stormer SAM fire. The other though flies over Barkhausen, which makes me retreat my Warrior IFVs there. At least the dismounts only, who are somewhat protected by buildings, will bear the brunt of artillery fire if it hits there. And soon enough, this position is indeed hit by BM-27 and 240mm mortar fire, but the damage is minimal. Two SU-24s also hit this position but they only destroy one Warrior. A mechanized force of T-15s advances through (8). British hit them with 40mm autocannon fire, 120mm tank gun fire and Javelins and all vehicles are knocked out. Finally, around 5 Ka-52 Helos appear in the skies and they hover around (6). I hate helos with a passion as they are the ones usually causing the most damage to me. Russians lost 30 T-15 IFVs and 8 T-14s MBTs (meaning more than 14000 points just by these two types of equipment). My total losses in points are around 7000 points which is the same rate as the first 5 turns. Let’s hope the rate drops more the next 20 turns that remain. |
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Turns 11-15
https://i.imgur.com/ptZwmiJ.png The left flank of the British force (north) sees some heavy tank fighting at close range. Russian T-14s appear in the streets of Gnarrenburg. They are ambushed by the Challenger platoon that has taken ambush positions in a way that it could hit at least one flank of a T-14 (2). The result is devastating for the Russians. 6 T-14s are knocked out, plus two immobilized, as well as several T-15 APCs. British suffer one Challenger heavily damaged, but still operational. Some Russian forces try to move towards the southern side of the town. Here, a British infantry platoon destroys one T-14 and immobilizes another, although the latter, together with a Ka-50 helicopter causes heavy losses to the British soldiers. Situation is becoming dire for the defenders and the start to slowly fall back. More T-14s manage to bypass the defenders of Gnarrenburg from the forest to the north and are advancing south. Fortunately, a pair of Apache helos arrives as reinforcements and are immediately send to block the Russian advance. They have to be careful because of heavy AA presence. When they arrive at (1), the start unleashing volleys of Hellfire missiles to the Russian armor with the result being 2 T-14s knocked out. They are aided by two Challengers to their right that knock out two more T-14s. There are still 5 T-14s visible in the area, so more British tanks are moving to counter them. The astonishing success of the British armor is balanced by the spectacular failure of the RAF. I decided to send all Eurofighters on a strike mission against the massed Russian armor at (3). They are immediately fired upon by a horde of S-400s, Tor-M1s and Tunguskas and all 10 aircraft are shot down for no effect at all. I receive F-35s and Predator drones as reinforcements, as well as F-16s but unless the AA threat is neutralized (especially these damn S-400s), they are not fighting at all. British AAs get a small revenge by shooting down one SU-24. The aforementioned mass at (3) continues the slugfest with the British Challengers, who start to run out of armor and are trying to fall back. They are aided by The Russian helicopters, which are now 4 Hinds as well as the Ka-50s, thus I estimate around 10 enemy helos in total which is a nightmare. I decide to withdraw my armor to concealed positions behind forests and towns. They are constantly fired upon by helo ATGMs, but only one Challenger is immobilized. British artillery pounds the Russians at (3). The Russians repay in kind in several places as the whole map is bombarded. At the forest at (4), heavy mortar fire as well as Buratinos firing thermobaric warheads, set the forest on fire, wiping out a British infantry platoon and panicking a Challenger tank platoon. One of the tanks retreats only to be knocked out by an ATGM from a Hind. The survivors retreat inside the forest. Russians take advantage of that and push with infantry and tanks through (5). One T-14 is lost from tank fire, as well as 4 T-15 APCs are destroyed, either by tanks of by infantry firing portable ATs, while 81mm mortars are preventing the dismounts from moving. A Russian TD company is spotted at (6). They are fired upon by Challenger tanks and are heavily damaged, with around 6 vehicles destroyed. Some of them did fire Konkurs missiles at British armor to no effect. British receive one final form of reinforcement, a couple of German Roland SAMs. They are immediately put into use, firing at the helos. One helicopter is damaged and will probably retreat soon. Thus, at the end of turn 15, British defense remains intact. Russian helicopters are the main threat now, as the T-14s seem to be handled for now and my armor losses are very low with just two tanks knocked out. Total points loss is estimated at over 18000 points, thanks to the botched EF-2000 strike. That was by far my biggest blunder of the game, and it can (most probably will) cost me the victory, since if I get over 22000 points of casualties, the game is a draw. |
Re: Not so welcome
Turns 16-20
https://i.imgur.com/0auBjVK.png The northern flank attack by the Russians continues. More T-14 MBTs appear in what looks like a company sized attack. The two Apaches and in total 4 Challengers in ambush positions prove to be enough to handle them and the entire company is destroyed for no British losses. Russian artillery bombards the defenders, forcing the Apaches to withdraw (they are also out of missile ammo and need to be resupplied). British armor in (2) has some last duels with Russians at (3), although most tanks have retreated towards the inside of the town due to lack of ammo. Tanks expended even their HESH rounds. One immobilized Challenger is destroyed by an ATGM shot from a Ka-50 helo but otherwise, the retreat was successful. Russian advance at (1) is slow and with heavy losses. Two T-14s are knocked out by flanking tank fire. Russian dismounted infantry trades shots with their British equivalents. The latter are also getting pounded by artillery and tank fire and they are faltering. The Russians cannot move either due to British mortar fire. British APCs in this force are wiped out by Russian air. Russian artillery and air cause disruption and losses further to the rear. Some aircrafts are damaged, but a MiG-29 SEAD strike knocks out 3 Roland SAMs. Russians own the skies. British artillery bombards the identified SAM sites, knocking out two S-400 SAM launchers at (5). At least these beasts will be out of action. Finally Russian helos are roaming around the battlefield, whacking any APC they find and causing trouble even to tanks. The Hinds retreated from the battlefield, although one of the did manage to destroy 4 mortar carriers at (4). The Ka-50s though are alive and kicking rears and it seems they’ll cause more trouble for the remaining 10 turns. Generally speaking though, it seems that the Russian attack seems to be blunted. I control all victory points now (Glinstent has fallen at around turn 14) and my defense seems unbreakable. If I haven’t botched up the airstrike, things would be much better… |
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Turns 21-29(end)
The last 10 turns offer little in the way of maneuvering. The only were cases two dismounted efforts by Russian infantry towards the settlement east of the Boglands and north of Glinstent, supported by tank fire from the surviving T-14s. These were repulsed initially by small arms fire and mortar and then by tank fire, artillery and mortars. In addition to that, there were some infiltrating infantry to the north and a couple of isolated AFVs, non of which posed any problem. Other than that, the Russians resorted to bombarding the living daylights of any positions that were identified, causing some more attrition to the British ranks. British retaliated by destroying the Russian S-400s with their artillery and knocking out 3 T-14s and shooting down one Ka-50 with their Apache helicopters that had an easier time due to Russian SAMs being destroyed, or out of ammo. The Russian force is exhausted and throws the towel at turn 29. Aftermath https://i.imgur.com/PBBtv7e.png Equipment losses British 4 Challenger MBTs 5 Scimitar light tanks 2 Athena FO vehicles 9 Jackal light utility vehicles 6 Ajax armored recon vehicles 36 Warrior 2000 IFVs 5 Warrior ABSV mortar carriers 1 FV432M mortar carrier 4 Stormer SAM vehicles 2 Roland SAM vehicles 3 Coyote utility vehicles (Ammo carriers) 2 Husky utility vehicles (Ammo carriers) 10 EF2000 Typhoon aircraft Russian 34 T-14 MBTs 60 T-15 heavy IFVs 16 BMP-2 IFVs 5 BRM-3K Rys armored recon vehicles 8 BRDM-2 scout cars 2 Krizantema-S Tank Destroyers 6 BRDM-2 Konkurs-M Tank Destroyers 5 S-400 Triumf SAM vehicles 5 Tunguska AA vehicles 3 SNAR-10M FO vehicles 1 Gaz-2330 Tigr utility vehicle 2 Unimog utility vehicles 1 Pchela-1T UAV 1 Ka-52 Aligator attack helicopter 1 SU-24 ground attack aircraft Final dispositions are: https://i.imgur.com/yUfcVYJ.png From the map is easy to see that Russian IFVs had the most losses, with the battalion to the north having significant infantry but few vehicles remaining. My losses were heavier to the south, were the battalion of the Welsh regiment defended. The company in the forest was annihilated, while the forces tasked with taking Glinstent also suffered heavy losses. The result of the battle is a marginal victory by point, but a draw by scenario objectives, since I suffered more than 22000 point losses. The British 12th armored managed to defend the area successfully, putting a real dent in the Russian attacking forces. However, they suffered significant losses and, together with the fact that the RAF was devastated and could offer no support in the foreseeable future, they were forced to abandon their position and fall back further west towards Bremen, retaining their combat strength for the battles to come. Looking back at the battle, it was surely a rough experience fighting the T-14s, with their tough frontal armor and significant protection from missiles. That being said, British Challenger proved to be also extremely resilient, with only 4 of them lost, 1 to tank fire and the other 3 from helicopter missiles. The main tank battle between the tanks of both forces dragged on for the entire duration of the mission and both sides had a significant amount of tanks left after the end, another testament of how hard it is to kill tanks in this era. British infantry proved to be quite a pain for Russian armor, since Javelins could kill armor if the APS was overwhelmed, while the British riflemen, contrary to any other riflemen I met in modern battles, had an actually good portable AT weapon. Their modernized LAWs had an excellent accuracy (something like 90% against targets at 400 meters) and they could occasionally hit the top armor of AFVs, which killed them in most cases. Both of them suffered enormous losses though. Russian helicopters were by far the biggest danger on the battlefield, being hard to kill and on occasions, surviving even tank shots. Each of them carried 16-20 ATGMs which made sitting in the open while they see you suicide. I had to hide vehicles constantly throughout the game if I wanted them to survive. The good thing is that their missiles cannot kill a Challenger frontally so, if I could keep the armor pointed forward and retreat slowly, I could save a lot of armor. In addition to that, the fact that almost all British vehicles had ATGM countermeasures helped in surviving the ATGM volleys while retreating. Russian artillery was very dangerous as always. DPICM devastated British light armor at Glinstent while heavy 240mm mortars and TOS-1 MLR with thermobaric warheads took a toll at British infantry. British artillery did manage to slow down Russian armor and also knocking out the pesky S-400 battery. Russian air forces were good, causing damage and losing only one aircraft. British air force was horrible. Only casualties, zero impact on the battlefield. In fact, if I didn’t use them, I would be around 7000 points lower in casualties, while the Russian points would be unchanged meaning I would have won easily. This failure prevented me from using any other aircraft, which meant that all these air assets were completely unused. In hindsight, I could have waited for the F-35s to arrive, send these first, identify the SAM sites, use artillery to knock them out and after the SAMs were dead or out of ammo trying to kill F-35s, only then send the other planes. But in general, the only air assets that were useful to me were the Apache attack helicopters that did their job brilliantly and these, together with British tanks and infantry AT weapons, were what was needed to stop the Russian attack. Aircraft are just not survivable enough to useful, unless they have very good EW rating and you opponent does not have a ton of AA. To conclude, a fun scenario like all others in the WW3 series. Looking forward to the next in line. |
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Damn, I am surprised with two things!
First, that you lost the skies. You must have been extremely unlucky with that airstrike, Eurofighter has damn strong EW rating and it is not hit easily! You seem to have lost a serious load of Warriors, entire battalion got downgraded to footmobile troops. That probably caused a draw, it will be very hard to replenish so many vehicles in short time. Essencially, British new heavy brigades are superior fighting force, but I find British AA cover way too weak - it was by the way assigned as it would most likely be, Brits got like 3 AA batteries now and each is assigned to operate with several brigades of the choosing. Stormers are however too little to stop concentrated airstrikes over time and win the game of attrition, or as least our little simulator suggest... By the way, MBT LAWs are not modernized LAWs, this is a completely different weapon of modern era and it is damn good one. |
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And in the game, MBT LAW gets its advantage if the firing unit is stationary (so can track the target properly for the inertial guidance system) and it is a top-attack warhead as well. Basically a "dumb" ATGM. See weapon class 24's write-up in the Mobhack help, weapons tab section.
UK has always been rather weak on battlefield air defence - NATO's air umbrella is supposed to do the job (yeah, right!). The new Land Ceptor /CAAM may help that situation. |
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US battlefield air defense has been in a steady decline since the end of WW II, and the founding of the US Air Force as an independent service branch. The assumption perpetual of air superiority is wishful thinking, if for no other reason then attack helicopters. |
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So basically, the MBT LAW is an ATGM that has all the pros and not the cons (no countermeasures). If this is the case, this is by far the best infantry AT weapon in the game, esp for close terrain defense.
EF2000s had decent rating against Tor and Tunguskas, although since in the game there are around 26 AA weapons (discounting MANPADs) in the scenario, after a while the shots become accurate (I don't know how it works in the code but I've seen that given enough missiles, the missiles accuracy increases. EW saturation?). Plus S400s are monstrously accurate. I really hope they are not that good as in the game IRL, since it is an OPFOR weapon as of last year. British AA is mediocre, however the terrain of the scenario is good enough that you can hide vehicles, plus almost all AFVs have countermeasures that make them quite survivable vs. precision weapons. Funnily enough, in the 70ies-80ies scenarios that I played before, British AA is quite formidable (Rapier ftw). You are right that I lost a great number of Warriors, but I strongly believe that the Eurofighters were the reason I got a draw. 10 aircraft lost are around 7000-8000 points down the drain and they did not fire a single missile. Honestly, I shouldn't use air strikes at all and I would have got a victory. Well, Hindsight is 20/20 as we all know... |
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BTW, did I mention how much I HATE attack helos when on the receiving end?
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Re: Not so welcome
First I have to say I really enjoyed following along as you fought this scenario. My thoughts are...
1. I believe if it ever shows up for the "regular" game in time, that what you described as to the performance and vulnerabilities of the T-14 Armata, shows that the tank as modeled is correct in the game. 2. As to the Challenger no surprises there either, it is still by many considered the best "protected" tank out there even in the environment of what is projected for the T-14. We might actually see the "new" Challenger (Along with the LeClerc) in the game before the T-14. 3. Rapier was an excellent system but the performance started to drop off by the mid-90's if not sooner. Originally had and optic system but has seen improvements sinceThe British are addressing these issues currently as Andy has pointed out. https://www.army-technology.com/proj...-by-baltic-sea 4. S-400 NOT AT ALL SURPRISED. When I submitted it the thought at the time was it would be on par to the PATRIOT. In it's current state, operationally it's currently very close to the PATRIOT PAC-3 (Though like tanks, they continue to evolve, as PAC-3 has.). http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-S-400-Triumf.html What's next for Russia? The S-500 PROMETHEUS which is not an upgraded version of S-400. I t is a brand system more along the lines of THAAD which is meant to compliment the S-400. Fortunately due to delays, the first "production" units aren't projected until 2025 or 2026. http://www.military-today.com/missiles/s500.htm 5. JAVILIN again not surprised by it's performance as it is one of the primer "fire and forget" and "top attack" ATGW in the world. There was a reason the British replaced their MILAN missiles with these (French doing the same over time with the MMP.). 6. Curious where those tank hits against the helos direct or indirect hits? The chances of a helo surviving a direct hit isn't very likely. 7. Did I miss it or did you not have SEAD? Seemed like you had fun with this, again enjoyed your AAR's Regards, Pat :capt: |
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@FASTBOAT thank you for the kind words. It is true that it was a very entertaining battle, as were all SaSTroop's scenarios.
Now... 1-Yeah, Armata is quite tough and it is up there with the T-90MS as the top tier Russian tanks. Standard way to fight them is massed missile fire or tank shots to the sides or rear (slight parenthesis here. Challenger gun isn't the greatest out there and I think it can penetrate the frontal hull of an Armata at around 500 meters. I guess an Abrams or a Leo-2A7 will be able to achieve that from further away and can even penetrate the turret at close ranges) 2-Challenger is the grandchild of a Churchill heavy tank. Heavy armor, meh gun (although it is quite accurate). 3-True that. The British have Stormer SAMs on the scenario but they did not fare much better. I shot down only one SU-24 out of around 4-6 that attacked me in total. This is definitely NOT great achievement. 4-No comment here, it shuts airspace completely. 5-Yeah, Javelin is well known, but the pleasant surprise were the MBT LAWs. These things give the British rifleman a significant kick compared to its counterparts. 6-About the helos, it is the neverending story of how they are modelled in the game. At first they were glass cannons. Now they are literal flying tanks. This is especially annoying with the Russian helos that are well armored as well. In the game, I hit two Ka-50s with tank rounds (and I think 3 more with Warrior 40mm), one of them from 13 hexes away. Didn't cause a single point of damage. Of course this is ridiculous if you think about it IRL, but I guess modelling helicopters is very hard. 7- I actually did have to Eurofighters on SEAD role. They were the first two ones that were blasted out of the skies by the S-400s. Grrr... |
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The "problem" is the way armor is factored in WinSPMBT: 0 armor and a spitball can do damage, 1 armor and you're all but immune to infantry weapons, 2 and 50cals/14.5s pretty much bounce off, 3 and light AA (20mm-ish) becomes a non issue. The MI-24 Hind was SPECIFICALLY designed to shrug off NATO 20mm AA. AA missiles/MPADS are also effected by the armor rating of the target, even tho heat seeking missiles more-or-less fly up the exhaust thus should more-or-less ignore armor. As great a job as WinSPMBT does it's NOT a simulation it's a game thus certain things are represented as best they can be, tho not "correctly". |
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