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-   -   Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM) (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42344)

Wrana February 19th, 2009 08:51 PM

Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
Greetings to all!
There was a question during the discussion on the last CBM version, for which I would now like to get more information.
The Fall Bears. To me and some others they look like the least useful among Elemental Spirits: the Lions are strong with fire aura, the Wolves are good flankers with Chill and the Hawks fly!
I also list here some of the options to strengthen them I've come with.
What are your opinions (with comments on your choice, if possible)?

1. They are perfectly fine as they are;
2. They would be good enough if made cheaper (QuantumMech's suggestion iirc);
3. They should get better stats (hit points, protection, strength would be thematic);
4. They should be berserks as befits Bears;
5. They should get regeneration;
6. They should get reinvigoration;
7. They shoulf get recuperation (don't think this will really change anything, but still);
- Several of the above.
8. Nothing will really help them - they are absolutely useless

Tifone February 19th, 2009 08:58 PM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
I'm between 1 and 4. But even 3 seems an appropriate (but cheap) solution.

lch February 19th, 2009 09:02 PM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
Trample would be thematic for earth. A little unusual for bears though.

rdonj February 19th, 2009 09:08 PM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
2. Maybe
3. No
4. Maybe
5. No
6. No
7. Maybe, but doesn't really make sense
8. No way!

The only solution I really like is making them cheaper. They're still quite useful as they are, but being cheaper would make them more available. Wouldn't berserk actually be almost negative? They already have ridiculously high morale, so all berserking would do is make them suicide themselves in a battle that's already lost.

AdmiralZhao February 19th, 2009 09:33 PM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
I'd say give them an extra attack, a bear hug. It would have a low attack value, but would do armor-piercing damage + a likely affliction, like the Koppo's bone breaking strike.

JimMorrison February 19th, 2009 10:26 PM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lch (Post 675545)
Trample would be thematic for earth. A little unusual for bears though.

I was thinking just that, actually. In CBM I didn't feel the Bears were too bad, as they are fairly economical in gem/unit cost, they have very high HP, and they are Ethereal, which can cause conventional armies with little-no mage backup quite a lot of problems.

If not Trample, then I am too lazy to look atm, do they have 3 attacks? If they had Bite, Claw, Claw they would have some good offensive punch to go with their physical might.

If they had a high damage, AOE 1, Pounce attack, that could be neat too - if it can be flagged as usable once per combat, like a Lance?

If all else fails, a high Berserk value could be fun enough, I suppose. :p

vfb February 19th, 2009 10:54 PM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
They aren't that useful because they are large, so they are hard to buff (to make up for their 0-prot and slow movement).

I think they could be made faster. Bears should be at least as fast as mounted cavalry. And these are magic bears!

Give them Claw Claw Bite too, and crank up Attack just a point or two.

Right now I only summon these if I get a conj discount.

LoloMo February 20th, 2009 12:25 AM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
Another possibility would be to increase the number of bears summoned per casting, but keep the gems per bear cost the same. That way, it can be used as an emergency summon even if it's not cheap.

chrispedersen February 20th, 2009 02:43 AM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
I think the intent behind the bears is as blockers. I'm not opposed to changing them, I just don't see it as urgent.

JimMorrison February 20th, 2009 04:16 AM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chrispedersen (Post 675593)
I think the intent behind the bears is as blockers. I'm not opposed to changing them, I just don't see it as urgent.

In such a case, if the general feeling is that they still need a little improvement, I'd give them decent protection to stack with their Ethereality (Kithaironic Lions are 17prot?), and maybe bump MR a couple of points. Then they don't kill stuff any faster, but they're better at linebacking.

Agema February 20th, 2009 05:58 AM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
The thematic use of Fall Bears, as pointed out, is that they're blockers who with decent HP and ethereal can soak up a lot of attacks whilst your army does more interesting things elsewhere.

The best thematic thing would be protection. Even as little as 5 protec would add to their lastability a fair bit, as much as 10 would make them a massive hindrance for any troops unsupported by mages or without magic weapons.

vfb February 20th, 2009 06:07 AM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
I don't understand what's thematic about using Fall Bears as blockers. They're big magical mindless bear spirits. They are zero protection because they are spirits -- that's thematic.

Giving them protection just would make them more useful as blockers, and in that case they are just going to be competing with cave drakes.

llamabeast February 20th, 2009 06:38 AM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
I guess 5 or so protection would be reasonable, a lot of animals have a bit like that to represent their thick hides. And it would make quite a difference to their survivability.

Otherwise, my main thought about bears is that they should have vicious damage output (although not trample). However, I haven't actually looked at fall bears, so my thoughts are not worth much!

Dedas February 20th, 2009 06:53 AM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
Protection wouldn't suit them, as vfb (what does that stand for anyway?) said, they are ethereal spirits.

lch February 20th, 2009 08:01 AM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
vfb = very foobar

Tifone February 20th, 2009 08:52 AM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
Idea (found on google at random):


Resized it is even already ok as sprite :D

Agema February 20th, 2009 09:09 AM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
Bears are big, relatively lumbering beasties. They may be able to get to a decent speed running, but watch videos of them fighting, it's not lightning fast claw and tooth action but more punching and grappling so giving multiple attacks is hard to justify. You could make a case for boosting their Att/Dam. Bears certainly don't use their bulk in a way to justify trample.

At various points and by various means, ethereality co-exists in Dom3 with protection - it's a magical bear spirit so why should that magic not include a magic toughness? It's hard to change them much without losing the theme of them being a bear. Currently they don't make good shock troops or flankers, which means they pretty much are blockers, except in a different way from cave drakes. And even with low protection added, they would still have very different advantages and disadvantages from cave drakes.

Humakty February 20th, 2009 09:23 AM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
I voted berserk, but I wouldn't mind any other buff.

I find them pathetic, and never summon any of them (SP), because spending gems to get big chaffy beasts doesn't seems all that interesting. More precisely, I wouldn't ever spend precious earth gems, so usefull early on (when you would summon low level beasts) to get dwarven hammers, and other nice pieces of equipment (earth boots...).

Gregstrom February 20th, 2009 11:17 AM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
Autumn is the season of mists and mellow fruitfulness, so why not give them Mistform or a supply bonus?

Endoperez February 20th, 2009 12:29 PM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
Mistform is Air. Supply bonus wouldn't help their fighting ability, but it isn't a bad idea. That or a large siege bonus value could be a nice perk, but I don't think either alone would matter.

High attack value with magical weapons would be pretty nifty.

fungalreason February 20th, 2009 12:45 PM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdmiralZhao (Post 675553)
I'd say give them an extra attack, a bear hug. It would have a low attack value, but would do armor-piercing damage + a likely affliction, like the Koppo's bone breaking strike.

I really like this idea.

llamabeast February 20th, 2009 12:45 PM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
I just took a look at the fall bears - gosh, they're terrible!

My fix would be:
Attacks -> Bite, Claws or even Bite, Claw, Claw
Prot -> 5

Bears are meant to be mean, mean creatures to fight. Giant ones like this more so. They should be able to deal out some serious hurt. One attack a turn definitely doesn't seem like enough.

Prot 5 would just give a little bit more staying power, and is consistent with have a decently thick hide.

Dedas February 20th, 2009 12:59 PM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
Aren't they supposed to get better stats in fall? Or am I missing something... :)

JimMorrison February 20th, 2009 03:03 PM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dedas (Post 675683)
Aren't they supposed to get better stats in fall? Or am I missing something... :)

That's the tricky part. +50% HP in Fall, normal HP in Summer and Winter, and..... I just discovered this recently (so embarrassing), -50% HP in Spring.

Dedas February 20th, 2009 03:11 PM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
It's the same with the three other season themed animals, which is rather cool. I only wish there was more of this, as seasons don't have enough effect on the game in my eyes. Yes, there is the scale and event changes but there should also be changes to supplies (extreme in mountain terrain) etc. Then you REALLY would have to plan your army campaigns carefully, maybe putting them of over winter, waiting for spring and so on.
If season had more impact things like forest, mountain, waste survival would be much more valuable and interesting and summons like these a little bit more valuable.

JimMorrison February 20th, 2009 03:19 PM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dedas (Post 675719)
It's the same with the three other season themed animals, which is rather cool. I only wish there was more of this, as seasons don't have enough effect on the game in my eyes. Yes, there is the scale and event changes but there should also be changes to supplies (extreme in mountain terrain) etc. Then you REALLY would have to plan your army campaigns carefully, maybe putting them of over winter, waiting for spring and so on.
If season had more impact things like forest, mountain, waste survival would be much more valuable and interesting and summons like these a little bit more valuable.

While that much is true, it would not uniformly affect the game, due to terrain distribution. So while you are waiting for the passes to clear, your biggest rival is busy taking territory in leaps and bounds.

Dedas February 20th, 2009 03:27 PM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
And wouldn't that be cool! You would have to find a way to force that obstacle; enter the fall bears. Just kidding. But anyway, this game isn't exactly the pinnacle of formality so I think it would just add depth.

quantum_mechani February 20th, 2009 03:48 PM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
Just a note, last CB version gave normal bears a second attack (so they have both a bite and claw), so regardless of other changes fall bears will be getting at least that.

I'm not really comfortable adding prot though, seems an Illwinter thematic kind of call. Stats like attack and defense I'd be more open to changing. Berserk is certainly off the table- just bizarre on a mindless being. I'm glad recuperation and regeneration were not popular picks, because they also strike me as significant thematic departure.

So, overall, other than adding the extra attack, the if I were to make more changes it would probably be to price.

Dedas February 20th, 2009 04:03 PM

Re: Fall Bears usefullness (mostly CBM)
 
Good call QM, I agree with you.


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