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-   -   MBT's (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45260)

MarkSheppard June 3rd, 2021 09:41 PM

Re: MBT's
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG (Post 850497)
I *think* this is what we have as the Type 2000 in the Chinese OOB.

??

It had been named ZBD-04 MGS then ZBD-2000 then in 2020 Type 2000. The date fits for the ZBD-05

This is because Chinese weapons development is confusingly mixed with different signals coming from them at different points in development; with people making up names as they see new prototypes or equipment; and Chinese manufacturers themselves flack marketing names.

The big difference is that unlike in the West, where you can tell that the M60-120S (put Abrams turret on M60 hull) is a private venture, nobody is quite sure who is sponsoring what until it appears in quantity in Peoples Liberation Army service.

Let's go to Chinese Wikipedia:

https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZBD-05...88%98%E8%BD%A6

Quote:

In the first half of 2000, the army The China North Industries Group Corporation put forward the request for the development of new amphibious armored vehicles.
This is where everyone gets the "ZBD-2000" and "Type 2000" stuff from; because that's when the first developmental prototypes appeared, or the initial concept came from.

Quote:

It was finalized in 2005 and used to replace the Type 63 amphibious armored vehicle family. The armored vehicle family includes four types, one is the ZTD-05 amphibious assault vehicle , used for beach impact, the second is the ZBD-05 amphibious infantry fighting vehicle, and the third is the 05 type amphibious armored command vehicle developed on the basis of the second . The fourth type developed on the basis of the first type is the 05 type amphibious armored rescue vehicle .
Production of the first "operational" units began in 2005 era; hence the family's designations:

ZBD-05 Amphibious IFV
ZTD-05 Amphibious Assault Vehicle (aka amphibious light tank)

These designations (ZBD/ZTD/etc) date back to 1987, when the PLA General Staff issued "Regulations on the Naming of Weapons and Equipment of the Armed Forces" 《全军武器装备命名规定》, which changed things from the old "Type XX" series; in which "Type 56" in small arms meant:

Type 56 7.62 mm semi-automatic rifles
Type 56 7.62 mm submachine guns
Type 56 7.62 mm light machine guns

The new 1987-onwards designations are generally revealed only after an item has entered service, because the designations themselves tell you exactly what the item is.

Back to the ZBD-05:

Quote:

The ZBD-05 amphibious infantry fighting vehicle made its first public appearance at the parade on the 60th anniversary of the National Day of the People’s Republic of China on October 1, 2009.
Going to another Chinese Wiki page:

https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZTD-05...93%8A%E8%BB%8A

Quote:

The ZTD-05 amphibious assault vehicle made its first public appearance at the 60th Anniversary of the National Day of the People’s Republic of China on October 1, 2009.
and

Quote:

According to the official development notice of the 05 car issued by relevant departments in December 2003. The Type 05 amphibious fighting vehicle is actually four models: the first is an amphibious armored assault vehicle, equipped with a 105mm low recoil rifled gun ; the second is an amphibious armored infantry fighting vehicle, equipped with a 30mm cannon; it is based on the second type. The third type is an amphibious armored command vehicle; the fourth type is an amphibious armored rescue vehicle based on the first type. It is mainly used for island offensives. During the landing operation phase of the campaign, it performs the task of consolidating the landing field.
So let's review from Chinese Sources we get the timeline as being:

1.) NORINCO based on some prototypes or drawings, in mid-2000 submits a proposal for a modern amphibious vehicle family.

2.) The PLA General Staff approves development of the amphibious vehicle family in December 2003.

3.) The Amphibious vehicle family is type classified and adopted officially by the PLA in 2005.

4.) It doesn't get publicly revealed to the world (officially) until the October 1, 2009 parade.

blazejos June 4th, 2021 07:05 AM

Re: MBT's
 
In subject of tanks I d'like to add about polish modernisation of old T-72 from storages usually M1 variant

This new tank after rebuilding is called T-72M1R

So what is that. In geostrategical context Poland now need many tanks and fast. That is why army give local industry a green light to modernization of older models usually T-72M1 from storages build in 70s/80s
They are already in use since 2020 by 18th Mechanized Division
https://www.wojsko-polskie.pl/18dz/a...erwsze-strzay/

What was modernised in T-72M1R?
  • New Engine W-46-6 573 kW
  • New electric installation with accumulators
  • manufacturer PCO add new observation devices (PNK-72 Radomka instead of TWNE-4B)
  • for commander (POD-72 Liswarta instead TKN-3)
  • Periscope PCT-72, with thermovision 3rd generation KLW-1 Asteria for gun crew (instead of TPN-1-49-23).
  • New caterpillars and basket in rear of tower for tools.

In case of armour none was added so that is still T-72M1 but with better optics/electronics and reliability and communication.

https://milmag.pl/2021/wp-content/up...pard2pl_01.jpg
https://www.defence24.pl/upload/2021...72M1R19bz2.jpg
https://www.defence24.pl/upload/2021...72M1R19bz6.jpg

Text about this tank https://en.topwar.ru/180612-moderniz...i-t-72m1r.html

A description of future vehicles now considered by Polish Army T-72M1R is also there
https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/10...ge/6/#comments

DRG June 4th, 2021 08:01 AM

Re: MBT's
 
https://bydgoszcz.wyborcza.pl/bydgos...Redirects=true

Quote:

The vehicle received new, passive sighting and observation systems and encrypted communication, as well as several other small improvements. The delivery of these machines started at the end of 2019. By the end of 2025, there should be at least 230 of them.

The changes did not include the armament, protection or armor systems of the vehicle, which maintains its usefulness on the modern battlefield at a level at least debatable.

blazejos June 4th, 2021 08:35 AM

Re: MBT's
 
That's true first time T-72M1R were delivered in December 2019

There also exist T-72R which is older model modernised with the same parts.[ (I'm not certain about this)

https://translate.google.com/transla...kazane-wojsku/


Manufacturer Bumar Łabedy S.A official press note
https://www.bumar.gliwice.pl/news/zm...rly-do-lublina

Here some additional articles
https://translate.google.com/transla...idoczne-zmiany

That's true they are another critical articles that changes are too small. I suppose that this that is fast and dirty modernisation which is result that situation in Europe is deteriorating.

https://translate.google.com/transla...-zbrojeniowki/

https://translate.google.com/transla...jsk-pancernych

DRG June 4th, 2021 10:21 AM

Re: MBT's
 
Found this year old article while digging around for a decent photo

https://www.defence24.pl/kto-dostarc...unicje-do-t-72

Quote:

There is a chance that armored units equipped with T-72 tanks will receive modern ammunition. Five entities signed up for the technical dialogue conducted by the Armament Inspectorate for the new anti-tank sub-caliber ammunition for the Polish T-72 and PT-91 Twardy tanks.

blazejos June 4th, 2021 12:22 PM

Re: MBT's
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG (Post 850537)
Found this year old article while digging around for a decent photo

https://www.defence24.pl/kto-dostarc...unicje-do-t-72

Quote:

There is a chance that armored units equipped with T-72 tanks will receive modern ammunition. Five entities signed up for the technical dialogue conducted by the Armament Inspectorate for the new anti-tank sub-caliber ammunition for the Polish T-72 and PT-91 Twardy tanks.

That is standard T72M1 without basket on rear turret!

Here is famous basket :) biggest visible mod
https://i.imgur.com/niz9UKh.jpg

Here are photos of T-72M1R from Field deploy
http://www.polska-zbrojna.pl/home/ar...h-czolgow-T72#
https://zbrojni.blob.core.windows.ne...2/Images/76987

Here is official military data about this tank also in English

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/--JiaPyksA...20/jlzkVsq.jpg

And nice photos of interiors of T-71M1R with focus on modernised devices they are on photos
https://thedeaddistrict.blogspot.com...lish-army.html

And info with photos about new modernized tanks for army
https://translate.google.com/transla...-ida-do-wojska

In this last article is photo and description that Bumar modernizing also WZT-2 & WZT-3 recovery tanks to standard WZT-2M & WZT3M don't know what is a spectrum of this modernisation but maeaby is similar to this devices which we have in T-72M1R

WZT-3M
https://www.defence24.pl/upload/2021...2o15.31.21.png

blazejos June 4th, 2021 01:30 PM

Re: MBT's
 
Found also data about optoelectronics devices from
PCO (Przemysłowe Centrum Optyki - Industrial Optics Center)

Their products
https://pcosa.com.pl/en/home/

POD Liswarta https://pcosa.com.pl/en/pod-72-liswarta-2/

PNK Radomka
https://pcosa.com.pl/en/pnk-55-72-ra...ion-periscope/

Thermal Periscopes
https://pcosa.com.pl/en/modernisatio...ured-vehicles/

KLW-1 Asteria
https://pcosa.com.pl/en/klw-1-asteria-thermal-camera/

blazejos June 10th, 2021 06:58 AM

Re: MBT's
 
BTW niece photos of PT-91M Pendekar Malaysian model of polish PT-91 Twardy on proving ground.

https://thedeaddistrict.blogspot.com...&by-date=false

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/--8wwh30Hs...01828176_o.jpg

This photos is a proof that Malaysian has also an engineering mine clearing devices for their MBT look on first tank on photo. Don't know if that is Polish or Russian made device but probably they are interchangeable between t-72 family
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FashRJ4xI...96638405_o.jpg

blazejos June 10th, 2021 11:50 AM

Re: MBT's
 
Quote:

There is a chance that armored units equipped with T-72 tanks will receive modern ammunition. Five entities signed up for the technical dialogue conducted by the Armament Inspectorate for the new anti-tank sub-caliber ammunition for the Polish T-72 and PT-91 Twardy tanks.
[/quote]

There is also more about this modern ammunition for T-72/PT-91 called 120x570mm APFSDS https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/10...comment=212028
https://i.imgur.com/DndcfZq.jpg

FASTBOAT TOUGH June 15th, 2021 01:30 PM

Re: MBT's
 
I'm thinking there's a fair shot we'll see these upgraded Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW) Leopard 1A5BR tanks before games end based on this newer article from the one I posted around a month or two ago. This upgrade program is part of a longer term initiative to strategically
upgrade their armor between 2020-2039.

This current program is meant to extend the operating life of the Leopard 1A5BR by 15 years.

We now also have a better picture in regards to the extent of the planned upgrades along with a couple optional ones which I feel will be made considering the "neighborhood" they're in.

What I don't know is will they seek a new tank from outside the country which are what the "rumors" say will happen or develop their own tanks like they did with the following below. They know how to do it but, what killed the programs were time in development, no export orders and most importantly cheaper foreign tanks.

Both the TAMOYO and OSORIO never got past the PROTOTYPE Stage.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/n...ard-1a5br-mbts
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/mb3_tamoyo.htm
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/osorio.htm


For you Vietnam Vets, 2 days until I catch "The Freedom Bird"!!
Though I concede the fact your I'm sure felt better.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:


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