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-   -   MBT's (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45260)

Pibwl October 26th, 2017 04:23 PM

Re: MBT's
According to Russian Wikipedia https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2-90 :

* T-90AM (obyekt 188AM, program Proryv-2) is a modification of T-90A with new FCS Kalina, improved gun 2A46M-5 with better accuracy, Relikt ERA and remotely controlled 7.62mm AAMG
* T-90MS is an export variant of AM (shown in 2011)
* T-90M (obyekt 188AM, program Proryv-3) is a modification of T-90A. 400 tanks will be "modernized". Gun is 2А82-1М (of T-14 Armata), FCS Kalina.

The same on T-90M is here https://vpk.name/news/173008_t90_pol...noi_silyi.html ("T90 will get a gun from Armata...")

It is not clear, if T-90AM is used, T-90M is in plans as for now.

Uralvagonzavod received a contract for a batch of T-90M http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=2926028

FASTBOAT TOUGH October 27th, 2017 01:44 AM

Re: MBT's
Maybe a little help here In Soviet/Russian nomenclature might be helpful.

First from... 7 INTELLIGENCE COMPANY AS PART OF IT'S INTELLIGENCE TRAINING SUPPORT OF 1 (BR) CORPS. This dated from 1988. There is very useful data here other then from pg.1 especially at the very end.

It's all about what you call it, the lighter side of it...


This has just come in by way of "reading my papers" finally some news on the ARJUN Mk II. The Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) of India has just completed the 93 improvements the Army tasked them to do to get them to like it more. Weight was one of the major issues among many. It is supposed to be lighter than the ARJUN Mk I but much better protected, which it seems especially with "{improved KANCHAN armour, a modular composite armour developed by India. It has been described as being made by sandwiching composite panels between Rolled homogeneous armour (RHA) (A very technologically difficult process.) . This armour is able to defeat APDS and HEAT rounds and is believed to withstand APFSDS."

Do not forget they've had a lot of foreign help from Israel, Germany, France to a lesser degree and it still looks like the U.S. in an unspecified role.

What caught my attention is it seems like the LAHAT is back in play after it being reported the Israelis and Indians couldn't get it to work properly with the 120mmR MG. Testing was successful with a Ukrainian ATGW.

It's been well documented that ARJUN Mk I outperformed all their current main tanks in the op eval trial period to include their improved T-90S. They didn't even involve their T-72 tanks as they're so dated. I foresee them testing ARJUN Mk II against the T-90MS tanks when they get them. Should be interesting. Ref. has been updated to allow for protection, weapons, and other general changes.

To say I've spent a life time with these tanks here would be a bit of an exaggeration, but, and has felt like it at times.

GOOD NIGHT!! 3AM :doh:!!

Pibwl October 27th, 2017 11:11 AM

Re: MBT's

Originally Posted by Pibwl (Post 840046)
* T-90M (obyekt 188AM, program Proryv-3) is a modification of T-90A. 400 tanks will be "modernized". Gun is 2А82-1М (of T-14 Armata), FCS Kalina.

..or rather should I write: "the gun according to some statements is going to be 2A82-1M in the future". As for now, T-90M seems nothing more, than unspecified order, and a prototype. According to http://army-news.ru/2017/10/tank-t-9...nosti-proekta/ , basing on some official statements, the gun is 2A46M-4 (strange, that not M-5). There is a mention, that the tanks are going to be modernized from earlier variants rather than produced.

As for T-90AM, there is surprisingly little information. There is an article, but without any mention if they are in service https://anaga.ru/t-90am.html Searching for T-90AM in the Russian net, I haven't found any news that they were delivered.

BTW: as I mentioned in other place, there is a small problem with proper rendering of a progress in Soviet 125 mm guns. There were models 2A26 (T-64A, early T-72), 2A46 (T-72A/M1, T-64A?, T-80), 2A46M (T-72B, newer variants of T-80, T-90), 2A46M-1, 2A46M-4 and 2A46M-5 (T-72B3). And each one is said to be an improvement in accuracy... On the other hand, we have all with accuracy 13, and only Armata's gun is 15. Maybe from 2A46M in late 1980s it should be 14? There was probably the biggest improvement between 2A46 and 2A46M, connected with an introduction of symmetric recuperators and reduction of clearance in gun's mechanism.

FASTBOAT TOUGH November 1st, 2017 04:44 AM

Re: MBT's
Well “Houston we have a problem” it appears we might be early on the South Korean K2 and are defiantly early on the K2A2 PIP (Black Panther). And it all started with the following so please don’t blame me, because it’s JANE’s fault as per this ref next…

Blame the guy who’s holding all those files-he’s a real bassturd!?! I’m only the messenger.

So from the above ref. Para 4 TORD - “An initial batch of 100 K2s – ordered in 2011 with deliveries commencing in 2014 – were fitted with the German MTU 883 diesel engine (@1200hp-mine) and Renk transmission system.”

Also from Para 2. I believe this (The second K2 ordered batch.) refers to the K2 (A2-mine) PIP this would have fit the planned dates for that originally as falling between 2016 and 2020. One of the noted K2 PIP characteristics was a new improved engine with a 1500hp capability + more to include the KAPS (Think IDF TROPHY) “hard kill” system, which has already completed all field testing and is operationally ready to be used.
“In an audit submission to the defense committee of the South Korean National Assembly on 13 October, DAPA said the mass production of the additional 100 K2s is now expected to be complete by 2020. Under the initial schedule, announced in late 2014, the production of the second batch of MBTs production was expected to conclude in 2017.”

So I’ve been directed to pull together all the K2 information I have and note the various FOC dates included. I have further been directed to provide changes as necessary to include a comprise FOC date for the K2 based on the body of evidence included. Also please note dates of refs where given and that I had reported on this engine issue which also plagues the Turkish ALTAY (An update included at the bottom from 1 Nov. 2017.) In no particular order…


K2 Development Section Not much help here except – “There was a new bump in 2011, when the Defense Acquisition Program Administration had to admit that the engine would be replaced by the original MTU-890 instead, at least for the first 100, delaying operational introduction until March 2014.”

K2 PIP Section – “This upgrade is intended for the near future (2016-2020) to improve the early batches.”


K2 – Not much help here except under the Contract Section at the bottom of Dec 2014 -2019, but supports below ref. by year.

K2 PIP - Armor and defensive features Section – “As for the initial version of the K2, it will not contain any hard-kill anti-missile defense system. However, the K2 PIP, which is an improved version of the initial version, is slated to be released within the next few years, and will contain either a pair of anti-missile systems.”


K2 Para 1 – “Production contract for the first 100 K2 tanks was signed in 2014. In 2016 this first batch of 100 tanks was reportedly delivered and additional tanks were being built.”

K2 PIP – Nothing.


K2 – Intro Section - “The tank is expected to enter into service in 2014.”

K2 PIP – Nothing

Turkish Altay - The K2 Black Panther development Section
“The first prototype of the Altay MBT is expected to be ready by 2015.” They about made that-PIC


K2 – Description Section – “Already in production, the K2 is scheduled to be delivered to the South Korean army between the latter half of 2015 and December 2017.”

K2 PIP - Variants Section -
"K2 PIP: an improved version of the initial production model of the K2 that will be released within the next few years."

Remember I said to make sure to check the posted dates where given. The above was posted on…
“Posted On Monday, 26 January 2015 15:47 (Updated on. - PJC) 25 April 2017


K2- Contract Section -
2011 – 2014
Nov 18/14: XK-2. South Korea’s WON 2+ trillion (about $1.84 billion) XK-2 tank project, which served as the basis for Altay, has experienced delays due to technical difficulties. Acceleration performance has been a particular issue, and the ROK plans to field it with a locally-made engine and transmission by 2017. So far, about 100 K-2 Black Panther tanks have been deployed in Korea. Sources: Yonhap, “S. Korea to put K-2 combat tank into full service by 2017”.

K2 PIP – Nothing

Turkish ALTAY Latest Update Section (Read all Please.) -
"November 1/17:
…Rheinmetall’s potential involvement in Turkey’s Altay tank program could also be in doubt—the firm has formed a joint venture with Turkey’s BMC to bid for the first tranche contract which would see 100-200 Altay units built."

In context to the rest of the para, the revised 2018 date I submitted a couple of months back is now in severe jeopardy. Don to be safe I’m really thinking JAN 2019 now for FOC of the ALTAY. They also tried an indigenous engine like S. Korea, and it hasn’t worked out either. With this political storm now it could be years before it'll see the light of day."

Side note:
The improved K1A1 they will be brought up to the K2 standard minimum, while the K2 will be brought up to the K2A2 PIP standard. This last para only for FYI. I do not foresee any of these first two above tanks coming out of service before games end. Also the K1 and K1A1 data looks fine as is.

Would recommend the following based on all above...

1) South Korea/K2/UNIT 025/START DATE/JUN 2017/VICE JAN 2014//

2) South Korea/K2 PIP/UNIT 033/START DATE/OCT 2018 (80%)/VICE JAN 2014/ADD KAPS Hard Kill/Also is to maintain current Soft Kill System/Can the game support both?/If not, upgrade to KAPS.// South Korea is much further along in fixing their developmental issues than Turkey is in theirs for the ALTAY. Given the current situation on the Korean Peninsula and with China to a lesser degree I feel strongly they will be motivated to get the K2 PIP on line ASAP. I’m basing my above date on these factors. But, I’m also prepared for the fact this could slip into early 2019.

3) Turkey/ALTAY/UNIT 614/START DATE/JAN 2019 (75%)/VICE JUN 2017//As noted in the above refs.

Well I've spent sometime on this yesterday and this morning. If you don't hear from me in the next couple of days, I was unsuccessful in my tactical infiltration into the bedroom and the rack. :hide:

4:30am somebody shoot me!?! Only kidding! Willing to take my chances!! ;)

For the "other guy"...


FASTBOAT TOUGH November 1st, 2017 09:41 AM

Re: MBT's
Forgot to get something from S. Korea itself. :doh:

The following is from the Korea Defense Network this video (1st one.) from 8/2016 the "payoff" comes at 1:15 into the video/freeze it and you'll see on the turret "X2".

On some of similar videos dated btwn 2014-2015 the marking was on the front hull is "XK2".

This is indicating to me the progression in the op eval portion of the acceptance program.

I think we're on track as submitted or really close to it.

At the very start of the 2nd video you'll see the "XK2" as noted above, this from Nov. 2015.


DRG November 1st, 2017 10:35 AM

Re: MBT's
What I see are tanks already available for service as of August 2016


1) South Korea/K2/UNIT 025/START DATE/JUN 2017/VICE JAN 2014//

is not accurate

military-today has them in service 2016 and that is GOOD ENOUGH for me

MarkSheppard November 1st, 2017 08:04 PM

Re: MBT's

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH (Post 840051)
Maybe a little help here In Soviet/Russian nomenclature might be helpful.



That feeling when someone uses your website in a debate you're in. :D:angel

I really do need to update that page; clean it up a little bit and do another round of Russian Prefixes from what's available on the internets now.

Pibwl November 2nd, 2017 02:59 PM

Re: MBT's

Originally Posted by MarkSheppard (Post 840135)
That feeling when someone uses your website in a debate you're in. :D:angel

I really do need to update that page; clean it up a little bit and do another round of Russian Prefixes from what's available on the internets now.

Yes, it's always nice ;)

Excuse an offtopic, but here are some mistakes to clean:
- should be "modulnaya" instead of "modurnaya", "bronirovannyi" (or "..yy", depending on transliteration) instead of "bronirovannykh" (the last one is a declination of a basic form),
- "kumulyativnaya" and "kumulyativnyy" is the same, and it means shaped charge, not Armor Piercing Warhead. The first one is feminine form, and the last one - masculine (it depends on a noun with which it is used),
- "kumulyativno-oskolochnyy" is HEAT/FRAG, not AP/FRAG
- "Raketa" (or rather pronounced: "rakyeta") is a missile, but also a rocket
- should be just "zholtyy" instead of "iorzholtyy"


MarkSheppard November 13th, 2017 08:02 PM

Re: MBT's


A new batch of five more tanks from Ukraine will be delivered late this month as the Royal Thai Army has so far received 31 of the Ukraine-made T84 Oplot tanks, according to an army source.

Ukraine was contracted to supply a battalion of 49 T84 Oplot tanks worth 7.2 billion baht in 2011 but was slow to press ahead with production and delivery due to security problems in the country.

So far, 31 Ukrainian tanks have been sent to Thailand and the new batch of five tanks are now heading to Thailand by ship and are expected to reach the country by the end of this month, according to the source.

The final batch of the remaining 13 tanks have already been manufactured and Ukraine is now waiting for an army delegation to travel there to examine the tanks late this month.

FASTBOAT TOUGH November 13th, 2017 11:05 PM

Re: MBT's
Those OPLOT-M tanks then will have arrived almost on time. I had reported that the Ukraine lost the potential order of selling Thailand the additional tanks they required but, that agreement was made to allow the Ukraine to fulfill it's contract obligation with no penalties for breach of contract. They have Russia to thank for that as the on going dispute in the Eastern Ukraine was considered in the contract reevaluation.

The Ukraine as also reported has "cranked up production" of the OPLOT-M to meet it's obligation to Thailand as already reported. But as it's starting to turn out and again reported the Ukraine could be the winner in the end.

1) The only major issue Thailand had with the tank was some in the Army didn't like the fact it had an auto-loader. But as it turns out, Thailand has been very happy with the OPLOT-M thus far. But they needed more tanks and China won the bid. More on that below. The interesting thing here is there is now some speculation that this will set up an op-eval situation between the two tanks as Thailand would like to get 200 new ones in the near term future. So with full production going and with streamlined manufacturing processes in place now (Also reported.) they're making them for themselves now as well, estimates vary somewhat, but on average suggest they're up to around 100 OPLOT-M tanks now from only having 10 within just the last 3yrs. or less. It does leave the door opened a crack (All be it a very small one.) for them to get back in the "game" in Thailand. Something to watch over the next couple of years.

2. Already reported on the following as well, Ukraine getting the contract to do a major over haul of Pakistan's ~300 T-84 tanks. The real news was the fact that Pakistan is also very interested in the successor (T REX concept.) to the OPLOT-M and yes you guessed it, as already reported in this thread as well. Ukraine has already displayed the concept and should have a prototype within the next couple of years or sooner. It will be interesting in the longer term if Pakistan will help this project along (Not really big fans of Russia.) possibly financially or more. Opportunity Knocks.

3. Nothing solid but, there's still some interest in the OPLOT-M in Asia at least enough to test them. And Africa is speculated to be a viable market as well. I'm watching S. Africa in particular as they've been looking for newer tanks for over a decade now. The delay is a sluggish economy and the realization they won't have the money to get the tank they really wanted, the LEOPARD.

So what did Thailand decide to do? Well from my files, oldest first I hope...

The tank...

Allowing for inspection and acceptance, op-eval and some training, I would expect these tanks to reach FOC somewhere between JAN 2018 - MAY 2018.

Note many of the refs above have already been posted in this thread.

Consider this a compressed version containing the relevant files to date.


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