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-   -   SP and SPAA Developments (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45014)

FASTBOAT TOUGH May 7th, 2012 12:54 AM

Re: SP and SPAA Developments
It's a good night for some house cleaning.

1. A belated Happy 25th to the SAF G6 still one of the most advanced SP systems out there and a long time leader in the "range game".

2. BAE wins a contract modifications for the M109A6 PIM and I'll need to check for a fielding date modification.

3. Want to develop your own artillery? Well do what the Kalyani Group in India has done by buying the gun, then buying the factory that made it and finally move the factory brick by brick from Austria to India.

4. USA buying the latest CB Fire Radar systems. I think this more as an FYI issue vs a game issue. Though I've been involved in many arty issues I feel in this area no further changes need to be asked for or made within the game concerning this issue. This is more about understanding how things work.

5. Chile to upgrade it's M109A5 with work being done in the U.S. Read para three for the upgrades due to be completed in 10/2013.

6. A think tanks thoughts on MEADS and the USA.

7. S. K orean company partners up w/L&T of India in a joint tender to produce Indias SP 155mm. Note the picture.

8. It's nice to have money in a story related to the above.

9. Italy wants the U.S. to maintain it's commitment to MEADS.

10. Morocco fields the M109A5 from the U.S.

11. The new PATRIOT GEM-T missile has successfuly intercepted a target in a high density enviroment.

12. Russia sucessfully tests a new thermobaric rocket for the TOS-1 which entered service in late 2000. Don't know if there's a date issue or not for the game concerning TOS-1.

13. Russia pulls SMERCH from Indonesias MRLS tender.


FASTBOAT TOUGH December 23rd, 2013 10:18 PM

Re: SP and SPAA Developments
Moving this up for current helo discussion concerning helo armor and there will be much work here hopefully for the next Patch. LAV-AD will be discussed in the other thread.


FASTBOAT TOUGH May 17th, 2014 03:49 AM

Re: SP and SPAA Developments
4 Attachment(s)
Well the timing works in getting this to it's home page if you will from last patch (The Aussies have it now-Thanks Don.) and helping a learned colleague out here at the same time. Seems the M777 155mm needs some clarification concerning the USMC and the USA.
1. The term M777 is only generic to the system in general. It is an Army run program. The system in reality needs to be thought of as the M777A1 and the M777A2. The M777 should be considered probably the best and most advanced LW (Or other.) towed 155mm out there. Also of note the crew size is 8 with a minimum of five that can still maintain an ROF of I believe it was 2 Rounds per minute.
What made the M777A1 so advanced was the mounted onboard "black boxes" you'll clearly see on the left side of the barrel in the picture below. It's a FCS that's GPS based with a very advanced C4 package that's fully satellite supported and allows for targeting data from ground/air and satellites. For the M777A1 I would recommend the following dates at this point for both services. The USA 10/2006 - 12/2008/USMC 06/2005 - 12/2008. I based the end date on the following data; of the 495 systems ordered by both services 400 M777A1 systems were upgraded by 08/2008. For the last 95 systems this is WELL within the "swag" of six months that Don and I have had to use on rare occasions when no good hard dates are available.

To prevent any heart attacks out there; it was identified that the need was greatest for the CORPS in updating their M198 155mm pieces first as one of the considerations involved in who got it first.

Concerning the M777A2 the difference here is that with the development of advanced precision guided munitions that which ended up to be the EXCALIBUR precision guided round (That was used extensively in Afghanistan from March 2008 by both services.) the software package needed to be upgraded which improved also all the features noted for the M777A1 suite. This also included some minor hardware upgrades as well. This is what "makes" and allows the M777A2 to fire these type of advanced rounds. Full material release for both services occurred in 07/2007 and allowing for initial installation, I would recommend the following dates at this point for both services. The USA/USMC 10/2007 - 12/2020. I would recommend reading the PM 4 info below as it ties in with this discussion in greater detail on system equipment components.

For the CORPS:
Attachment 12974

Bottomline: USA/USMA are all in on the M777A2. ADF info below makes for good reading as well.

This much like the LAND 106 (M113AS3/4) the LAND 17 (Artillery Replacement Program) was also plagued by numerous delays. The purpose of the program was to retire the 105mm M2A2, L119 HAMEL 105mm FG and M198 155mm (Addressed below). This weapon is considered in the “ultra-light weight” category. The A2 is the newest version of the piece. Also the system is so user friendly that it can be operated by a crew of 5 though, as noted above 8 is the standard crew for all users of the M777. The FIRESTORM DTCS (Digital Terminal Control System) will allow for instant targeting coordination that will include a tablet PC, a laser range finder, a laser target designator, a real-time video downlink receiver, a manpack radio, and the firm’s Defense Advanced GPS Receiver (DAGR).
Both the USA and USMC have already been equipped with the FIRESTORM DTCS package for their M777 pieces. It should be pointed out at this juncture that there are only two versions of the M777 as taken from Ref 1 as follows; “The systems fitted with the digital fire control system are designated M777A1, and those with the software update which allows the firing of the Excalibur projectile, M777A2. M777A2 received full material release in July 2007, clearing the upgrade for fielding. All M777A1 systems will be upgraded to the A2 standard.” This is in reference the U.S. so changes need to be made to both the USA and USMC OOB’s (Ref 2) and possibly Canada as well. The ADF site (Ref 1) no longer shows any other artillery being used in active service. The LAND 17 Phase 2 (Or 1C.) part of the program was also delayed and finally cut due to budget issues in May 2012. This program was to chose an SPA option for the ADF. The Australian 105mm has been retired, the L119 HAMEL 105mm has a battery on active service at their Artillery School and there are indications they along with the M198 155mm are in service with the Australian reserve forces. I have feelers out for information in Australia at this time so this and the above issues can wait until next year.
Refer to the #15 Australian OOB Queries Thread by TDR for further info if desired in Posts 6, 12 and 15.

Pics for Game UNIT Picture from ADF files:
Attachment 12975 Attachment 12976
Attachment 12977

Some of us have to get our beauty sleep before work (Sorry forgot there's not enough time in the Universe to help me with that :shock:!!!!) so good night.


FASTBOAT TOUGH May 17th, 2014 04:27 AM

Re: SP and SPAA Developments
My Ref. 1 from PM4 in my last should read Ref. 2 the clock ran out on my editing it for this Thread. However I did repost the ref under my discussion of the M777 in regards to the USA/USMC as well-hey it's Ref. 1 there!?!.

Sorry any confusion but it is late. Sounded good at the moment anyway. Gotta hit the rack.


Suhiir May 17th, 2014 11:03 PM

Re: SP and SPAA Developments
The two major questions are:
1) The current M777 (presumably A1) has an Accuracy of 10. What's the Accuracy of the A2/Excalibur?
2) Will the USA/USMC will use up their existing stocks of 155mm ammo and then use Excalibur rounds exclusively? If not the M777A2 should be a new unit available apx. 07/2008 and the existing M777A1 units should remain in the OOBs.

Excalibur was developed as a longer-ranged alternative to conventional artillery shells, with GPS guidance for improved accuracy. Excalibur has a range of approximately 40 to 57 kilometres (25 to 35 mi) depending on configuration, with a circular error probable (CEP) of around 5 metres (16 ft) to 20 metres (66 ft). The extended range is achieved through the use of folding glide fins, which allow the projectile to glide from the top of a ballistic arc towards the target.
Initial combat experience with Excalibur in Iraq in the summer of 2007 was highly successful, with 92% of rounds falling within 4 metres (13 ft) of the target. Its performance was so impressive that the U.S. Army planned to increase production to 150 rounds per month from the previous 18 rounds per month.


FASTBOAT TOUGH May 18th, 2014 02:43 AM

Re: SP and SPAA Developments

I have to be brief as I came home to stand tall before CINCLANTHOME, so basically we've had some SERIOUS scares around here for over a year now, I've been asked to do what others are doing now and that means to catch our breath a little as we still face a couple of challenges ahead of us. I really need to limit my time out here and I can't spend much more time on this issue because the world keeps spinning around. Sorry that's all I can say publicly or in private. But the word of the day is "DOGHOUSE". I leave it to you to figure out the phrase the word can be used in. So let's get this done-please!

I stick by my Post above #43 a 100%. M777 is a generic term for the system like ABRAMS is for the MBT. The accuracy conversions as I've indicated in the past I have no clue about and quite frankly I have no interest in. I can only report and care about the raw data and the numbers derived from that research in real world terms. If I was that smart I'd be designing games myself and then God help us all!?! I leave that to you folks and I thank everyone that can do that out here in the forum. I do care about if it works/looks right in the game, that's where I make the connection of data vs. the game.

1. Dates given for the M777A1 & M777A2 are as good as I can give from the refs. And to be absolutely clear the army-technology site represents a composite formed from other refs in the "harder" dates I provided.

2. I will provide refs below that will show an accuracy to average 1.6 meters with 35 rounds fired at targets at various ranges. You will be in a data rich environment when you look at them. Those numbers are derived from op evals and combat sources.

3. This is where I got frustrated-I thought I clearly stated why the M777A2 package was developed, so that it can fire precision munitions in this case EXCALIBUR. I also noted that the side benefit was increased accuracy overall of the system/M777A2.

4. Conventional rounds are going the way of the dinosaur, almost 800 rounds of EXCALIBUR have been fired in theatre. We are on the third/or fourth upgrade in the field of EXCALIBUR at this time. To be clear the M777A2 can fire both conventional and precision rounds. EXCALIBUR is already in full rate production.

5. EXCALIBUR vs. Conventional rounds provided below are ratios of shells required to hit targets at various ranges. The range/ratio fall between 1:10 to 1:80 rounds or more. It is much cheaper at these ratios and causes much less collateral damage to use EXCALIBUR, as this was a chief complaint from the Afghan government concerning our operations there in using conventional munitions of all types. This again from the Army ref. which covers this in an easy format.

6. The M777A1 is no more. I will offer this ref from my last post again from the USMC. It should be noted nowhere does it mention the M777A1 it's all about the M777A2 Ref is from 2013. Again start on Page 106 for this discussion.

The numbers stuff...
From Raytheon:

From the ARMY of interest focus on all but, especially Slides 7 and 9:

In the field already (EXCALIBUR 1b) and with U2 providing the music how can you go wrong-feelin better already!! Please note the target distances in the upper right corner of the video.

CINCLANTHOME says I need more sleep before work and since I'm in a weapons environment I'll just say she's right and good night!!


DRG May 18th, 2014 07:06 AM

Re: SP and SPAA Developments
Pat. Take all the time you need. The forum is a distant secondary at best. We are on a hiatus and game development is on HOLD until we are not and I don't see that happening for awhile.

Take a break from this and deal with what's important. Staying up to the wee hours to report on game issues and losing sleep in the process is just not worth it. It's just a game


FASTBOAT TOUGH May 19th, 2014 02:42 AM

Re: SP and SPAA Developments
To be clear "There is no crying in baseball." that applied to my career on submarines, my current job and the people there who have my back and me their's and this forum in general. However, reflecting back on some of my posts over the last several months, there comes a time to do the right thing and that time is now for this instance. You see Suhiir asked for my opinion, advice and recommendations for issues concerning the CORPS (A scary proposition in it's own right, I mean cmon it's that whole NAVY vs marine thing-oops should've made that all caps as well!?!) I could've politely bowed out but said I would be glad to help. So Suhiir please accept my apologies. If you will allow it, I would be glad to finish what we started.
Don you are correct in your assessment, CINCLANTHOME and I have been through a lot (Right from the start married, pregnant 2 months later (That Dec. evening a couple of weeks before Christmas she tells me the great news and I respond like everyone husband would by saying... "How did that happen!?!" absolutely true! :D) six weeks later I'm deploying (My avatar picture.) for seven months to the North Atlantic and Med to play underwater tag and hide n seek with the Soviets. That command was very special to us even though I was deployed 89% of the time over four+ years. And we're still hanging in there almost 28yrs. later. This is who I am and I'm a little adrift from that person now-thank you Don again your right.
After I tidy up a bit around here, I think it's time not to turn out the lights but dim them down somewhat.


P.S. Oh never mind but, rest assured when all the lights come back on, the room won't be empty! ;)

Suhiir May 19th, 2014 04:44 AM

Re: SP and SPAA Developments
We all "have our moments".
Somewhere behind the facade of "guru" there lurks a real person.
Well...I think Don is real...you can never be sure about a Canuck.

As to my questions you did answer #2 pretty thoroughly.
I sort of assumed they'd probably go exclusively Excalibur but one can never be sure when politicians are involved.

FASTBOAT TOUGH February 5th, 2015 01:58 PM

Re: SP and SPAA Developments
This next provides a situational update on Ukraine as well and more importantly weapons/ammo load data on the TOS-1 and TOS-1A that we might not have. Note the picture at the bottom of a post launch from a TOS-1A (Which is in the foreground slightly off center to the right of the picture,) I see it as a two rocket launch and very nasty.

From the article...
"The TOS-1 is often referred to by Russia as a heavy flamethrower, although it actually fires short-range (3,500 m) 220mm rockets armed with thermobaric warheads. The TOS-1 is based on a T-72 main battle tank (MBT) chassis and can mount 30 missiles. An upgraded version, the TOS-1A, features an improved rocket with an extended range out to 6,000 m and mounts 24 missiles."

The ref...


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