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Updates in light of Ukraine war
Some things presently in the game fairly obviously need updating in light of the war in Ukraine:
- Ukrainian OOB, add Javelins, NLAWs, Panzerfausts, Stingers, Starstreak. - Active protection systems (e.g., Shtora) DO NOT WORK, or at least there are no reports of any of them stopping even a single Stugna-P, Javelin, or other anti-tank weapon. Why this is is hard to say - could be poor Russian maintenance but Ukrainian tanks also seem to be suffering the same thing. - ERA is also a lot less effective in reality than it is in this game, at least not against tandem warheads or top-attack weapons. - In reality T-72s, T80s, and T90s appear much more vulnerable than they do in this game. Of course there is selection bias in the videos that you can find online, but there is little evidence that the armour of these tanks is very effective against even close-range auto-cannon fire (cf a Ukrainian BTR-4 taking out a Russian T72B3M from the side with its 30mm cannon in Mariupol). |
Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
Oh geez, not again...
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Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
Definitely someone who hasn't bothered in the slightest to actually read the board posts since the invasion of UKR started...
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Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
YES.... we have been paying attention to current events:doh: and there has been ongoing adjustments made starting the day after the Russians crossed the border.
What source claimed the 30mm kill ?? I want to know just what "taking out" means in that event..... did the tank burn and explode or did the crew bug out? There is a LOT of BS flowing from both sides ......don't add to it DO YOU MEAN THIS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt06PvmqD7Q If yes it claims " damage " but that tells us nothing about the actual "Damage" And here's a PRIME example of the BS flowing like water https://www.businessinsider.com/vide...ariupol-2022-3 Quote:
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which is a LONG way from taking out a B3M from the side and as sure as the sun rises that 30mm autocannon on the BTR-4 can chew up a BRM-1K |
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I'm seeing a real noticeable gatekeeping/toxicity here from the old guard towards people asking about updates, add-ons, features etc. |
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I agree with you! to each of your points. - I have not seen one totally verifiable video or photo evidence of active protection working. You would think that after nearly a month, there would have been something. In short: active protection might need a nerf. - ERA a tricky. I have seen two videos of frontal hits on T-80s with an unknown HEAT warhead (RPG, Pz 3?) where the ERA did appear to work. - You're right here. The footage of the BTR-4 penetrating the T-72B3M has even been verified by another 'game': war thunder. Side protection on T-72s in some places is no more than 60mm. Autocannons might need a slight boost. Futher: i've argued that modern AGTMs like Javelin need a boost. Ive done tests with Javelins vs T-80s and always seem to average about a 25% kill rate, with over 50% being intercepted by CIWS/VIRSS. This has clearly not been observed in Ukraine. Data from defense analysts suggest javelin effectiveness is about 93% overall. That includes all targets however: MBTs, APCs, IFVs etc... |
Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
We have made adjustments to the way the game calculates the effects of active defensive systems and in the next update they will be somewhat less effective but no matter what we do someone will have differing opinions. It's been like that since the start. It's why WaW even existed. There is no way to make everyone "happy" and it will take months at best for the truth and BS to be sorted out when it comes to who did what and what effect that has and if in the end it means an adjustment to the code we will make adjustments to the code but right now the "truth" is whatever someone on either side want it to appear and real data is not going to be available for a while yet but if we think something needs tweaking we will or have tweaked it.
In regards to the first post, it was obvious either what had been said and written on these forums since the start of this had not been read or it was thought we are living on the moon Quote:
The actual capabilities of the systems we try to simulate in the game can NEVER BE KNOWN until they are tested in combat and then we make adjustments to try and bring reality and the game closer together but to think we are unaware that certain things "fairly obviously need updating" is just a BIT insulting like we are somehow unaware of events. Hence the response given Quote:
We were already working harder on this than either of us wanted to and Andys doing it with a broken shoulder then this all started requiring us to be even more busy making adjustments almost all of them based on guesstimates because nothing is really known for sure |
Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
So let's hold off on updating things, say until this time next year, when we all have time to digest the information and figure out the actual facts...if that is not good for some then so what, I would rather have you guys in good humor and health and not burnt out. You and Andy have done amazing work.
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Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
Add JAVALIN's to the Ukrainian OOB? I do believe Don and I had already done that about two years ago at least. You NEED to check the OOB first or at a minimum, I think..., I'm not sure if..., I believe they might (or not) ....
I believe this is getting out of hand. I believe, if these distractions keep up, we won't see an update until June. I know that there was a plan on what were the top items they wanted to get done for the next release. Normally all "outside" inputs would've been ended by FEB./or beginning of March. What we think we know is JAVALIN & NLAW performing a little better than expected. T-72 GENERALLY speaking up to maybe the T-72B3 (Considered a 3rd Gen MBT. aren't so good, however it is no secret with Russia it's always been about numerical superiority it is estimated they operate around over 2000 - 3000 of them. There's ALOT of technical issues that need looking into. Karagan is right and I'll go a little further in saying we NEED TO GO TO "ALL STOP" concerning any further changes concerning this war period for the next release. We experienced the cost of all this "over exuberance" about ~4+ years ago. The cost? I do believe it was a lay off that lasted over a year with a 1.5-year gap between releases. I believe that was a summer release. This is not "Burger King" where you can have it your way! More like Andy and Dons Diner where they offer a good meal and a fair price with a daily "Very Generous Potluck" meal. Can you guess were we fit in metaphorically speaking!?! This war is not ending anytime soon, kind've more like the Battle of Britain with the resolve of The Blitz. Time to take the "Very Generous Potluck" meal off the menu. I'm ready for the just a good meal served when ready without the extra frills. That analogy has now made me hungry! So, I'm off to bed instead. Andy get well, I think a shot or two of some of FINE Scottish Whiskey or my preference INNIS & GUNN from the Whiskey or Rum barrel will do you well. Or maybe just a "spot of tea" of which you add any of the afore mentioned items, maybe not so much the Innis & Gunn. ;) Don, have a couple cold ones, shoot some targets and have a nice walk. On second thought, shoot first and the rest as you see fit. :D Regards, Pat :capt: |
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Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
I would not be that over reacting :P
As I play SPMBT, CIWS and VIRSS systems seem to be quite ineffective for top attack ATGMs like Javelin - like already in the game. I would generally not say that Russian CIWS is not working completely - rather than NATO supplied weapons strike the top of the vehicle so often that its covering angles are way insufficient. About that ERA protection... oh boi, problem appears to be that many Russian vehicles are empty. There are pictures of literally egg-fillers put into those bricks but could be propaganda - either way though, brick is empty. This kinda shows the scale of corruption or low readiness of many units, not neccessarily that certain gear does not work. What I would recommend however is to probably "bring back" the deadliness of MANPADS systems. It was modified couple of updates ago and now it is super hard task to shoot down aircraft/chopper with these missiles, even after a couple of hits. This does not apply only to Strieła like systems that always suffered from poor warhead load, but MANPADS in general. Recently replayed one of Lundstrom's scenarios with Swedish Army and engaged Hinds with RBS-70s. Not a single one was downed with a single missile, while several were hit 5+ times to even assure any dammage (!) I believe Ukraine War pretty decently proves that underpowering those weapons could be wrong... |
Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
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What we ( I ) had assumed was modernized T-72's had ERA on the hull sides but it increasingly seems that they do not and the frustrating part is much of the type of info we need is rarely easily available
There is NO era on that rear hull https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1648044341 There is a bulk area here that *MIGHT" conceal ERA blocks https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1648044532 but putting reactive armour behind rubber matting like that would direct some of the force back to the vehicle if the block was hit https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1648044790 I don't think there is ANY ERA on the hull sides It may have been tried early on https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1648045074 But does not seem to be the case now along with any increase in steel hull side armour over time Still digging for more info |
Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
FINALLY some clear, usable information
https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot...72-part-2.html Quote:
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There WILL be changes made. SO HAPPY there are 181 of them in the OOB's and that only counts the ones with T-72 in their names GRUMBLE |
Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
I believe the biggest problem of the game is its binary logic: If Pen>Armor= always pen, otherwise never pen. Real life AFVs have all sorts of weakpoints that can offer chances of penetration to guns that on paper should not penetrate. It would be better if pen and armor values are translated to a chance to penetrate, where even weaker guns have a chance to cause damage/knock out an AFV.
Of course, this is a change that is probably quite significant and will likely not be implemented any time soon (if ever). But it will make things more unpredictable and will reduce the chance of 21st century armor behaving like KV-1 in Barbarossa. |
Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
AH HA!!!
https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot...72-part-2.html The video below shows a T-72B in Grozny retreating with some of its external sponson fuel cells alight. As you can see, the tank is not disabled by the fire and is perfectly capable of moving under its own power to a safe location where the crew can put out the fire with the fire extinguishers carried inside the tank. Thats why that one was burning in that video in Ukraine the external fuel cells were ruptured |
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That is why there are a HOST of randoms built into the penetration code so it IS NOT black/white pen/no pen in the game even remotely IT IS NOT Pen>Armor= always pen and never has been |
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Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
I have confirmed from the same source that ......
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https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-swYwfRacv...1600/4cv5Y.jpg and that matches what is shown in that video https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1647952203 The slat armour is missing but the blocks are identical so the reactive armour values in the stays as is ( the code that makes them work...... or not ........*may* undergo some revision) |
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Having said that, we might be talking about a different video.:D |
Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
Since a picture is worth 1000 words and a video probably a million:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9pVEP0AzZ4 |
Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
That's the same one Karigan posted yesterday in the 2022 updates? thread and it is an excellent commentary on why conclusions should not be drawn in haste based on biased information and that's why we generally have not..... yet. There have been a number of additions to the Ukraine OOB and we have adjusted the EXP and MOR value lists and we are going to take another look at Manpad vs Air/ Helos to see if *maybe* we went too far the last time we made adjustments to the code for that. Beyond that.... wait and see
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Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
One of the key points is made between 3:02 - 3:37
If you send unsupported tanks into areas infested with enemy infantry what is happening is what you should expect to happen |
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Yeah, you're right, Karagin posted it yesterday. :doh:
My bad, apologies for that. Although I want to say it's the video that best sums up all my thought so far in this conflict (and conflict in the digital era in general) and that's why I was so eager to post it. |
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In this case that video posted in multiple places is a good thing. Everyone should watch that and consider carefully want he says before suggesting " changes"
"You don't know what you don't know." The "problem" is right now we have multiple threads on this forum dealing with issues related to the current conflict and how they impact RL (and the game ) and it is difficult to remember where they all are Another Key point is made 12:10 - 12:30....... active protection systems are not universally fitted... This is important to "the game" because in 2022 ALL Russian "MBT" tanks have active or passive systems in the game because the information we had was that they did but there ARE "CS" versions that don't and anyone setting up a battle or a scenario need to consider using those versions as well I think I have a new end of game shutdown message "Defending is all well and good, but victory comes from the offence otherwise all you are doing is giving the other side time to fix what they are doing wrong" Nicholas Moran (The Chieftain) |
Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
Slightly relevant.
I am in a generated campaign (Greece vs Russia 2022) and the first 2 (or 3?) battles it was a cakewalk. I mean even though the AI had a bonus in points to purchase stuff, it was really easy for me. Which is a RARE thing against powerful armies such as Russia. In the current (3rd or 4th) battle while it was again easy to capture all the flags and clear our most of the map, I found some enemy troops "hiding" in the southern part where there was nothing really important. Cocky as I was I sent my vehicles (Leo2, BMP1, M113) to quickly mop up any enemy forces. In about 5 turns I think I lost more tanks and helos than I lost in all the previous battles combined. Didn't use infantry first, didn't prepare with artillery fire, didn't..didn't..didn't. One stupid mistake after another. One cocky mistake after another. I have to say, I almost enjoyed having my *** handed to me like that. |
Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
Also I d'like to rapport a come back of Tachanka in Ukrainian war we discuss this this in some post of SPWWII as a horse cart with HMG something like war chariot which predates technical vehicles used by cavalry during civil war in Russia on early XX century and then widespread in cavalry units in eastern Europe and central Asia. But now we can see here new incarnation of this famous vehicle on some sort of wagon mounted by motorcycle with canonical Maxim 10/30 from museum (storage ?)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOeN99wX...jpg&name=small here famous Tachanka song from Soviet revolutionary times https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGofoatz-20 so after a little more than a 100 years all goes back to roots :D |
Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxLT81wMzEU
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and that could very well be because a lot of Russian troops may not really want to be there and the Ukrainians really want them to not be there as well |
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Well, I'd argue that the Taliban are probably better fighters than the majority of NATO countries' troops. Nothing extraordinary with that, they basically know war since their very birth by now.
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Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
So much depends on Context. The Ukrainians are doing well. They were also invaded. Chances are if you changed the circumstances and it was Ukrainian troops "on manoeuvres" on the Belarus border and they woke up one morning and were ordered to advance into Belarus they might not fight with the same determination as they are now
I would not say the Taliban was better than NATO. They waited until it was only the Afgan army to stop them before they made a serious move to return but yes they have generations of experience |
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Even when there were only a couple thousand NATO troops in Afghanistan they didn't dare do much against them. They succeeded in not losing, but having constant support and reinforcements from Pakistan. All they had to do was to bully a local population which had no desire to fight and from the looks of it bribe state officials so that when NATO troops left the country they could just walk in. I am not saying they were the worst or that they don't deserve credit for surviving at least in part due to skill, but pound for pound I wouldn't say they are as good as the majority of NATO countries' troops. Not even close. |
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While the source for me is not exactly trustworthy, interesting video which if accurate is informative.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOmYi96cU1M |
Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
No, I'm going to stand by my opinion.
Now, to clarify, NATO does have the upper edge against the Taliban. Main reason is of course that Taliban are a light infantry force and any attempt of them to slug it out in the open with NATO troops is going to end with them being utterly annihilated by superior firepower. But, they are skilled in small unit tactics, in concealment, gathering intel from the local population and use of agents, even conducting HVT assasination. There are few NATO countries that have actual combat experience in these fields. Again, I'm talking about Taliban warrior spirit, which can be found in light infantry. As Taliban do not possess tanks, or heavy artillery, or air, they by default lose in these fields. But they did play their cards superbly, while the same cannot be said about NATO countries that participated in the Afghan war. Also, for all intents and purposes, NATO had an almost constant numerical advantage against the Taliban (counting only the fighters at least). But anyway, this will derail the thread from Ukraine to Afghanistan. |
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https://tass.com/defense/1061790
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Could be true.......or not. Lots of BS flowing
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...yed-in-ukraine I highly doubt the last sentence though. I have seen photos or the T-72 with the latest Arena Quote:
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<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/5gw0VWGbgNm8w" width="480" height="233" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/5gw0VWGbgNm8w">via GIPHY</a></p> |
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Yeah I had to leave before I edited it fully
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3o_1mVl7G4
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To this date, there is one (1) confirmed Russian tank with Hard-APS (aka projectiles hitting incoming munitions) destroyed (the lone T-80UM prototype). Everything else the Russians have is Passive-APS (Shtora) which relies on IR dazzlers mounted on the front of the turret. You can't dazzle an ATGM launch from the side if your turret isn't pointed at it. Quote:
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The game already accommodates that via "critical penetration" chance. |
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That tank was also missing its cage armour at the rear Point blank fire with a 30mm autocannon, exploding reactive plates, burning fuel then .... CUT! thats a wrap. We know N O T H I N G about what happened next.... NOTHING EVERYONE needs to watch this at least once https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9pVEP0AzZ4 |
Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1647952203
From this, you have to be at point blank range with a rapid fire autocannon to be able to kill a T-72/T-90 with it. (The T-90 is actually a rebadged T-72 with a new turret in later marks). Essentially, as DRG found out: the armour of the side of the hull is 80mm thick. The armour on the sides of the engine compartment is 70mm thick. War Thunder (I know, I know); lists the 30mm 2A42 Autocannon as having at 100m the following penetration: HE/AP: 63~mm APDS: 81~mm The penetration of HE/AP is deep enough that there would be scabbing off the inside of the armor; especially in the rear 70mm thick armor around the engine. So you can see that in order for a BMP-3/BTR-4 to stand a chance of defeating a T-72/90; the following must occur: 1.) It must be within 100m or less. 2.) The enemy T-72/90 must not have side skirt armor (or be missing pieces of it). 3.) The gunner has to recognize the missing side armor as a weak spot. 4.) The gunner then has to place 20~ rounds into that area. That's a lot of conditionals that have to occur for a "one in a million" shot. People need to remember the scope of Steel Panthers -- it's not a "down in the weeds semi accurate penetration simulator" like War Thunder is; but more of an abstraction of armored fighting; i.e. the game already abstractly accounts for weak spots; just load MBT_APCalc and look at Russian Weapon 77 - 30mm 2A42 A/C: 100m Range: AP: 6 typical penetration, 7 best possible penetration Sabot 8 typical penetration, 11 best possible penetration |
Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
If you see this
https://magic-models.com/wp-content/...T-72B3M_34.jpg https://magic-models.com/wp-content/...T-72B3M_52.jpg it has Arena...... if you don't see it, it doesn't https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod...f?resize=980:* |
Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
Continuing my own thread of thought:
Look in MOBHack, Russian OBAT: Unit 031 T-72 -- 9 Side, 6 rear Steel armor for hull (c.1975) Unit 035 T-72B -- 13 Side, 8 rear Steel Armor for hull (c.1985) You can see how the game is trying to abstractly simulate the differences between a 1975 T-72 with no side armor schurzen and the later 1985 model T-72 with side armor schurzen + ERA. Because remember, Schurzen still helps; even in the year 2000+ against APDS rounds, because a solid Schurzen plate is typically 1cm thick, and can induce yaw onto an incoming projectile; causing it to fail after passing through. I think a lot of misunderstanding is occurring due to games like War Thunder -- it's done a lot to help the AFV community, but it's also hurt in some ways. This is because War Thunder can hyper model individual armor plate thicknesses across an entire 3D model, whereas games like Steel Panthers have to take an entire aspect (frontal, side, rear) and abstract it down to a single number that then represents that entire aspect; while in War Thunder, you can aim for weak spots (i.e. no ERA or schurzen protection) and see that represented in real time. |
Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
Another aspect people are missing is that this mass ATGM/MANPAD spam is...abnormal.
Thousands of MANPADs and ATGMs have flooded into Ukraine; while the Ukrainians have asked (per CNN) for 500~ Javelin and 500~ Stingers...PER DAY. To put that all into context, in 2014 Finland spent EUR 90 million (about $123 million) for the FIM-92 RMP Block I Stinger to replace their existing pile of Soviet era MANPADs. The original contract "Wish List" was $330 million for 600 RMP Block I Stingers, 110 Firing Units, and 110 night vision sights. So we can guesstimate that Finland actually bought only about: 200 x Stinger RMP Blk I 40 x Firing Units + IR Sights That's not a lot for a modern battlefield; especially if you might use 3 or more Stingers in an ambush pocket -- one guy fires a Stinger at a Ka-52 Alligator; the pilot sees it and flares go out and it evades.... ...only to find out that the Ukrainians have carefully positioned several more stingers to the sides of the main shooter; so that no matter which way the helicopter evades, it's turning towards a Stinger Shooter. :eek: |
Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
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There is one interesting addition this year.......
https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1648177488 |
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Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
Switchblade drone
https://www.popsci.com/technology/sw...nes-explained/ https://www.avinc.com/tms/switchblade Quote:
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it's not a perfect adaptation of the weapon but it's "close enough" it has a WH similar to a 40mm GL |
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