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FASTBOAT TOUGH October 2nd, 2020 02:30 AM

Re: MBT's
Well nothing about any "new" tanks so that's another year lost. But possibly related..."Tornado-G 122 mm MRLs fired an unspecified new rocket with a warhead that detaches in-flight and descends by parachute."

That leaves me wondering how good can that be for tanks or any other target? I'm thinking not very good at all. :D

Also my missing last ref. from Post 1100.


MarkSheppard October 2nd, 2020 07:31 PM

Re: MBT's

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH (Post 848603)
You'll see the 25mm version of the TYPE-09 if you scroll through the picture gallery from the same ref. I posted earlier and has since been noted. Or as I just checked the bottom 2 pictures on the right.

"This ZBL-09 has a crew of three and capacity to carry 7 to 10 troops."


The TYPE-08 which apparently proceeded the "09" by a year (2008) has what we might consider a "standard" looking 30mm Auto Cannon vice what looks like a "Gatling" type on the "09".

Fastboat, I went and looked at the pages using EDGE and got these two images:



The turret on these prototypes of the Type 08 is... the same as installed on:

ZBD-03 Airborne IFV



Type 86G IFV (Upgraded Type 86 BMP-1 with new turret)


The gun on both the ZBD-03 and Type 86G Turret is a 30mm cannon....but here's where your erroneous information began, courtesy of http://www.military-today.com


The ZLC-2000 was an early prototype designation for the ZBD-03 (Type 03) Airborne IFV; and Military-Today.com says:

Vehicle is fitted with a one-man turret, armed with 25 mm cannon.

When if you go to ChinaDaily (which is a chinese source with the .cn designator), when in an afterthought in an article on the delivery of a new wheeled vehicle to the PLA Airborne Corps they said:



Before the new asset, the only armored combat hardware in the PLA Air Force's paratroop units was the ZBD-03 airborne infantry fighting vehicle, which runs on tracks instead of wheels.

The 8-metric ton ZBD-03 is believed to have been in service for more than 10 years. It is armed with a 30-mm-caliber gun and a single missile rail launcher used to fire anti-tank missiles.

Observers said the Air Force is waiting for Norinco to provide the new generation of airborne tracked combat vehicle to replace the ZBD-03.
China Daily is an English-language daily newspaper owned by the Publicity Department of the Chinese Communist Party. You can't get more "official" than that.

And regarding the "Gatling-type" cannon; it's actually a single barrel autocannon contained within a barrel support structure.


You traditionally find these support structures on autocannon intended for anti-aircraft work, since they allow the barrel to be more rigid during rapid fire (and thus more accurate).


This below is where the VN-1 is developed from the VP-10.
Your source says:

China's army uses a broadly similar ZBL-09 armored personnel carrier, which is proposed for export as the VN1.

Additionally it says that the VP10 was "first observed in 2014". The VN1 was first offered by NORINCO for export in 2008.

Some VP10 prototypes showed up in Chinese web forums being evaluated by the PLA back in 2016.

Currently it's a "idea vehicle" searching for a buyer; like so many things that show up at Defense Expos.

FASTBOAT TOUGH October 3rd, 2020 02:39 AM

Re: MBT's
I turn back to the UK the CHALLENGER 2 and more as it pertains to the ongoing MOD Defense Review, which I now understand will be released in November.

The tank is under a lot of scrutiny it's too old which is true in that it hasn't seen a major upgrade since 1998.

The last one considered I thought I'd be submitting for this patch, until I've found no documentation it ever got "off the ground"...

So what's to be done or otherwise proposed? The following will fill you in. This tank I thought was going to get in the game within the next two years, with time lost over the political/military crisis and COVID-19 it's now at least 3 years out if at all, to FOC.
Here's the upgrade plan...
Last I heard, MOD was leaning toward the Smoothbore MG.

More Governmental concerns "all around" and the "considerations" after...

What's the "big picture"? Well for the current and future land programs the following covers that.
This from the end of this past July. Which means the NET date I gave yesterday is NOT EVEN CLOSE I quote...
"The programme has experienced significant technical problems, with a current in-service date of 2024 (originally planned for 2017)" and the "beat goes on"...

To contrast the above latest update I give you one from Jan 2020 prior to further Mechanical/Technical, COVID-19 and the current Defense Review. First with some quotes...
"...according to an MoD source. “The seventh Ares vehicle has entered the final stages of testing and will be delivered to the Household Cavalry Regiment in the coming months,” said the source."

That 7th one is the first to be delivered just this past week. The first 6 are "test beds".

Same MOD source...“No 40 mm turreted Ajax has yet been delivered to the army.” This goes back to the CT-40 gun issues and FCS problems they are having. I have to state the obvious but, of course the "test beds" (6 Units) have them.

The Numbers Game... "The first Ajax squadron is expected to require 20-25 Ajax family vehicles, including a mobility reconnaissance support, turreted reconnaissance, command, engineer, recovery, and repair variants before it can declare IOC."
A long way to go yet.

And finally..."An MoD spokesperson told Jane’s on 15 January, “our target for Ajax initial operating capability remains July 2020”.
Well someone "spiked" the tea, because "they sure as poop
:angel missed that one. Hot or Cold, I never "spike" mine. :rolleyes:

1) AJAX significantly delayed or possibly worse, cut.

2) AJAX ARES seems thus far not to be in danger yet. Program still in development with first unit having been received to military. Probably FOC I'd think around mid 2021.

3) BOXER on track no issues and w/BOXER CT-40 (German designed CT 40mm) could replace the WARRIOR CSP.

4) CHALLENGER 2 LEP upgrade on hold to start possibly in 2021 or possibly worse, cut.

5) WARRIOR CSP program is apparently on track and partially due to configuration difference between it and the AJAX, WARRIOR CSP has not seen as many problems with the 40mm. Issue could be cut in favor of the BOXER CT-40 or without replacement.

It isn't pretty but it's where we're at.

Almost forgot, there is some "supposition" on the web regarding the CHALLENGER question that the UK is negotiating or is about to with Germany and France to be part of the "EUROTANK" project. If so we'll hear about within a few months after the Defense Review results are known.


FASTBOAT TOUGH October 4th, 2020 03:56 AM

Re: MBT's
Update on GERMAN LEOPARDS: This is as I feared it would be, it will be the "ABRAMS" for 2020/2021.

1. I won't be submitting any of the Commanders tanks as they are very rare ICO of Germany they only have two, so that cuts out one or two types.

2. I always thought the 2A5/2A6 shared the same armor values it appears that isn't true as well. The 2A6 apparently has a 3rd GEN Ceramic armor package onboard. So I believe in game terms, that means increased HEAT values, yes/no?

3. 2A6 EX is definitely the export version, that being said I will proceed to build upon those already in the OOB and transform to the current nomenclature units in service at this time to include the 2A6M and about 3 more 2A6 types.

I do not intend to deal with any LEOPARD before the 2A5, certainly not this year or ever God willing. Part of that reasoning thus far anyway, comes from the fact that the 2A5 tanks look good and that so far I haven't found any "incremental" upgrades to warrant any changes or additions to that series.

So I'll stick to my initial plan of using the last 2A5 in game one to come out of service and put it back into service until 2025. They are currently being used for training, but I have it on good word, as they are maintained at full combat readiness, Germany will use them to defend their country. And if you looked at a couple of refs I already posted on their total tank force, you'd understand why. I personally was caught off guard by the numbers, Poland and Ukraine have larger heavy armor forces among others.

However and I had a feeling this would happen, I have thus far found 2 foreign export countries tanks that need modifying as follows...

4) FINLAND they have the wrong tank. Finland's 2A6 tanks came from the Netherlands unmodified, in other words the 2A6NL, which as it turned out they themselves did a minor upgrades not a handful of years before they got out of the heavy armor business (It is rumored/believed they still maintain 20-25 tanks in storage.).
This fortunately is an easy fix by copying Dutch UNIT 037
over to Finland's UNIT 021 with a new picture as well, since they border the "Bear" they deserve that much!?!

5) SPAIN they did what SWEDEN did with the STRV 122 by having their tanks modified to their Specs, beyond the German standard. Except Spain ordered more tanks then Sweden and didn't have as much to spend on them overall, however, they spent what they had wisely on increasing the armor levels of their tanks (2A6E) along the Frontal Arc. It might be more than just a "gratis" 10% increase, this needs further evaluation.

6) This also means I have to look at the rest (Foreign/Export) but, I think it based on a "quick look" I haven't found anything in the export market that might require a change especially going back to the Chilean tanks we modified so many years ago now. Where does the time go!?!

On a side note and you'll love this, the other night while organizing my folders I decided (Bad Move!) to see what I had if anything in my Mozilla Firefox folder that MS was nice enough bring over when I switched to OS Win 8+.

Would you believe I found "stuff" from 2015 and earlier!?! So after deleting "news" and "related" items such as early start to some equipment now in, I was left with basically "hard core" equipment articles.

So the first 2 I opened up are from 2015 then I stopped, why? Would it surprise anyone out here with my "penchant" for finding things, that both those pieces of equipment have NOT been entered in the their respective OOB's! I'm thinking "OH WHAT WONDERFUL DAY!!". :rolleyes: And I have more in the file! I think I'll avoid that file!?! :doh: :D :cool: :p

Well I see it's getting really late and someone's likely to kick my

So I bide you all "Bonne journée/Bonne soirée" until next time. if there is a next time!?! :eek:


RC4 October 4th, 2020 05:19 AM

Re: MBT's
Good visual details of VT4

Pak Army sources told the requirment is for 1000 Tanks in 6 batches.
It came first for testing in January 2018, then sent back for modification, engine failed twice.
Came back again in 2019 with improvements.

They have a modified turret with bigger Armour, no APS system, ATGM missiles and a new APFSDS from Ukraine.

DRG October 4th, 2020 05:23 AM

Re: MBT's

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH (Post 848629)
4) FINLAND they have the wrong tank. Finland's 2A6 tanks came from the Netherlands unmodified, in other words the 2A6NL, which as it turned out they themselves did a minor upgrades not a handful of years before they got out of the heavy armor business (It is rumored/believed they still maintain 20-25 tanks in storage.).
This fortunately is an easy fix by copying Dutch UNIT 037
over to Finland's UNIT 021 with a new picture as well, since they border the "Bear" they deserve that much!?!


IDK what version of the OOB's you are looking at but the only difference between Netherlands UNIT 037 and Finn UNIT 021 is the addition of passive ATGM defence. Everything else is the same except the Finns have more recent ammo ( gun ) AND they already have their own photo

FASTBOAT TOUGH October 4th, 2020 02:27 PM

Re: MBT's
2 Attachment(s)
All due respect there are a couple of other differences. First I'm running both current versions of the games, specifically Version 14 SPMBT.

I have found nothing to show that Finland has modified the X-Dutch 2A6NL of which Finland took final delivery of them just last year.

They got a GREAT BARGAIN for those tanks from the Dutch...
1) Training Simulators
2) Ammo
3) 10 year maintenance support
4) They were completely maintained to spec at the point of sale.
From the ref...

"...to buy 100 Leopard 2A6NL external link main battle tanks, plus spare parts for 10 years, combat simulators, maintenance simulators, special tools and testing equipment, and ammunition."

They didn't need to modify them as the Dutch upgraded them throughout their time with their Army.

And I still can't find anything saying Finland did any modification to them once they got them and dear God I can't believe about to write this, that includes checking Wiki and Wiki Military :sick:.

But I did find this titled "Armor: Finland Upgrades It Leopards"
Talking about going from the dated 2A4 to the 2A6 tanks, which we all can agree is a major upgrade.

The only current owner of the EX-Dutch A26NL I can find doing anything to upgrade those tanks is Portugal. Portugal bought theirs several years earlier (2008) which were not to the standard that Finland bought in 2014 and started receiving in 2015. That work will be carried out from 2026-2030 for Portugal.

Simply the GUNS are different as is the STABILZER higher for the 2A6NL. Again I can't find any proof the Finns modified those tanks, especially with the package deal I noted above.


DRG October 4th, 2020 03:16 PM

Re: MBT's
Again Pat.... The ONLY ( only ) difference between that Dutch Leo and the Finn is the passive ATGM equipment and a slightly more recent ammo and the ammo upgrade is perfectly legitimate given the difference in time between the Dutch Leo and the Finn version so FC, RF . TI and ammo load are all the same.

Now....if you are saying nope, nada m no way to the Finns adding passive ATGM defence then I will remove it but it's on all the other Finn Leos so why would they leave it off that one ?

Mobhack October 4th, 2020 04:10 PM

Re: MBT's
I skipped back the last few pages, but could not see any mention of Hungary's new Leo 2 purchase?

Anyway - 44 of these being manufactured, plus some older ones for interim/training.


DRG October 4th, 2020 05:37 PM

Re: MBT's

It would appear these are the 1a4 trainers so not "OOB worthy" ATM

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