.com.unity Forums - Helo News game related.

.com.unity Forums (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/index.php)

- TO&Es (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=108)

- - Helo News game related. (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=46245)

Re: Helo News game related.

Helos are not resilient; I have seen the routed from ground fire, MANPADs, AA, and SAMs far more than I have seen them do anything practical.

The AI loves to shoot at them the second it gets LOS to them and won't stop until you, as the player, break that LOS.

I would say that someone is trying to use their helos as tanks, not as what they are flying targets that draw attention the second they get above the treetops.

Re: Helo News game related.

I dont know, in my experience high end Russian helos are so resilient that AI uses them almost like Tiger tanks in 1943 and gets away with it. Most of the time, I hit them only when stationary and use an ATGM. On one hand, it enables the AI not to lose 500 points in an instant. On the other hand, it enables unrealistic tactics like the one mentioned before (plus, there are also PBEM games...)

Regarding helos, it would be interesting if the flying artillery tactic could be implemented as in this war (helos unleashing rockets in an upwards arc as an ad hoc artillery). Perhaps it would be a good idea if rocket armed helos could have bombardment ability.

Re: Helo News game related.

Tell that to my APACHE crews that along with helicopters are all over "God's Green Earth" this was why several years ago I was wondering if we create "Auto Rotation" in the game you might lose your helicopter but by the same token you might save your crew and some soldiers if in a troop transport helo.

And we did look into this several years ago. Mostly we found some Helos armor was rated lower than they should've been against ammo at the 23mm (VIPOR/APACHE) BECAUSE those values needed weren't available when they were entered into the game. And there were some older ones dating back before Andy and Don to include more contemporary ones as well.

My game world again is ONLY the AI one. When I buy Helos or aircraft it amazes me how the AI seems to know I got them.

So, when I "bring them to the party" MANPADS are the least of my problems though they've caused me headaches as well. It's the big stuff that waiting for me and the AI VERY RARELY has disappointed with its "welcoming committee".

This why terrain masking is so important no matter the type.

Some are more resilient because unlike fighters except with some armor around the cockpit they actually figured out years ago helicopters because of their flight limitations might just need more of it.

And don't get me started on the more modern EW and Decoys
that are out there. Those are items we can't fully simulate in the game though they exist in the RW. So I'd call that a tradeoff with the perception helicopters are too "strong".

Last time I checked the Ukraine is a fairly flat and open country and when you use your air assets (Including Helos.) to drop "dumb bombs" over plains and farmland then your commanders as a dumb as the bombs their telling you to drop in that environment.

Even I can shoot down a helo in open country with a "AASIRSBG" ALRIGHT I'll translate-Anti-Aircraft Sneeze Injected Recoil Spit Ball Gun.

We're getting caught up in the videos, we've seen some successes on both sides in using attack Helos and if you've seen the ones, I've seen they're ALL flying "nap of the earth" and fast. There's one of a Ukrainian Mi-24 that was flying no more than 15 ft. over cars on a road.

That MIGHT help to avoid radar detection, makes you harder to hear you coming (Think about it the higher you are the more "space" you create for sound to travel further and wider in all directions. Same concept as Sonar in the open ocean versus in a bay) Which I believe is another thing we can't simulate "Nap of the Earth" flight.

I'm of the opinion that this matter really is a DRAW for both sides of the argument. Not just for the above but also because MANY people have postulated the opposite view that helicopters are too vulnerable.

And there you have it. I terrain mask and still use them. I can count on my hands and the number NOT reaching 10 how many crews have survived one of my 23/25 game generated campaigns when part of my core units.

If anything, we need to find the AI Military Intelligence Agency (AIMIA) ;) code AND KILL IT. :p

Yeah, AIMIA was on purpose there's a hidden message in there. :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: Helo News game related.

Gee, ......." a difference of opinion"

That usually means we have it nailed when nobody is happy for opposing reasons

Re: Helo News game related.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH (Post 853393)

If anything, we need to find the AI Military Intelligence Agency (AIMIA) ;) code AND KILL IT. :p

Yeah, AIMIA was on purpose there's a hidden message in there. :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Somedays I really do dispair.

It's one thing coming from a newbie to the game...... quite another coming from a veteran player

There is a DEAD CERTAIN way to test "theories" like this that take maybe less time than to type a long post about it

Set up a game like this
https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1668356402

Why that way you might ask.

This allows you to pick for the AI "attacker" and see what the AI would buy if the AI was the "defender".

This allows you to test theoies like "When I buy Helos or aircraft it amazes me how the AI seems to know I got them."

The answer to that question is in the game. You just have to look for it

So.......... you will need to run this through a half dozen times because like everything else the picklists have randoms built in so it's not the same every time

You want to be able to purchase for the AI so you can test this "how the AI seems to know I got them." theory.

So..... buy the same thing the first few times or alternately whatever floats your boat

To keep it manageable set Ukraine ( or whoever ) to 5000 points and set player 2 to XXX which allows it to buy to it's max for that battle type

Set player 2 air sorties to 15

Buy nothing but gunships for the P2 AI. Quit deploy for P2 and then you will be brought to the deploy screen for P1. Auto deploy ( it's just easier but clicking on manual deploy works too)

Once you see the units for P1 on the map go to the HQ memu........ check how many DEDICATED manpads were bought.... ignore the ones that might be bought with an infantry formation as that is even more randomized and the AI does NOT check what weapons are in an unit or formation before buying it

Do that a few times and count how many Inf sams are bought ( and SPAA / SAMS if you like )

Next do the same thing only this time buy nothing but MBT's for P2

Do that a few times and count how many are bought each time for both types of attack and tell me if you see a significant difference ( you won't ). Keep in mind that the larger the sample the less chance of getting repeatable random events. You want the average of as large a sample as you are willing to take

Re: Helo News game related.

I did a LOT of experiments with helos once upon a time.

If they have no armor they're vulnerable to any and everything.
With 1 they're pretty resistant to rifle fire.
At 2 they can handle HMG type AA fairly well.
With 3 or more they're VERY hard to hurt with MPADs and light AA (20ish mm).

The Hind use to have 4 armor (and the Apache 3, now the Hind has 2 and the Apache 4) making them quite literally a flying tank. No clue when the armor on the Hind was reduced but I'd suggest the Hind and Apache have no more then 3.

Re: Helo News game related.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 853396)

now the Hind has 2 and the Apache 4) making them quite literally a flying tank.

REALLY ?

Please do tell me the unit number of this mythical beast

EVERY Apache in V16 has 3 except the ones Egypt uses and they have 2.......... NONE have 4

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1668385128

This is not the first time someone whos been on this forum for a while has suggested or proven they are not using the current OOBs.

Its really getting annoying

Last release was V16 if anyone is playing the game with anything but V16 you need to DL the update and recheck your facts before posting here

Ok??

Re: Helo News game related.

In my US Army OOB unit# 936 AH-64D Apache shows HF=12 HS=4 ... i.e. 4 armor.

Did V16 come out while I was in the hospital? I may have missed it.

It also means I've been updating the wrong version of the USMC OOB! :doh:

Re: Helo News game related.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 853398)

Yes it does. I thought that was understood in our PM conversation when I told you the only change to the USMC since last release was the arty photo. I assumed you remembered we have been releasing every spring for years

BECAUSE.... In the email I sent you Oct 24 I said....

Quote:

SO IF you have the last update installed to MBT ( v16 ) you don't need my OOB to start work

IDK how I could be any clearer...

This is for everyone else.

IF YOU HAVE NOT CHECKED FOR GAME UPDATES THIS YEAR ( or cannot remember the last time you did)....... DO SO NOW

The current version shows at the bottom of the start up screen...... it should be V16

Re: Helo News game related.

Even with armor, the helos are not flying tanks. Once they are in the sights of AA, anything, they don't last long and usually are chased off the damn map.

What settings do you have things at for toughness and all that? That might be why your stuff is not reacting like others. I have more issues with the AI-run fighters shrugging off hits and somehow knowing where to strike my armor or flanking units with damn near perfect ability to get kills than any era helos making through the game if they go above NAP.

A couple of weeks ago, I had a Cobra shot down by VC rifle fire because I moved too close to them, and well, the AI took advantage of my mistake, no flying tank there.

Could it also come down to how you are using them? Tactical use might be why yours seem to be flying tanks and others are not.

Re: Helo News game related.

I doubt tactical finesse is the reason here, since the AI's way of operating helos is to fly them in a straight line and ATGM any vehicle that is spotted. I do use NOE, but this is how helos are supposed to be used anyway.

Re: Helo News game related.

Just d'like to add some issue related to helicopter tactics on front-line now which is discussed here

Quote:

russian pilots try to increase the firing range by performing the attack on the climb, when the aircraft’s nose is raised up

they are inside this article even two videos examples of Ka-52 and Mi-28 recorded during fights

https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and...flee-4878.html

Re: Helo News game related.

https://www.defensenews.com/industry...d-in-40-years/

https://breakingdefense.com/2022/12/...ce-black-hawk/

Quote:

WASHINGTON — Textron’s Bell has won the U.S. Army’s competition to build the Future Long-Range Assault Aircraft, the service’s largest helicopter procurement decision in 40 years.

The deal for the next-generation helicopter is worth up to $1.3 billion and is set to replace roughly 2,000 Black Hawk utility helicopters and around 1,200 Apache attack helicopters around 2030. FLRAA will not serve as a one-for-one replacement for existing aircraft, but it will take over the roles of the Black Hawk, long the workhorse of the Army for getting troops to and around the battlefield, and the Apache, focused on attack missions.

So looks like the Army gets mini V-22 in 2030 or so...

Re: Helo News game related.

The tilt-rotor design of the V-22 makes it problematic to create an "Attack" version of it. So don't expect AH-1s or AH-64s to go away any time soon.

Re: Helo News game related.

I suppose this is helo related since the Hellfire is normally a helo weapon system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srgEp7QXPks

Re: Helo News game related.

There seems to be a lot of testing new applications for weapons like the Hellfire.... brimstone instantly comes to mind and from what I found online was the Hellfire is cheaper to build than either the Brimstone or the Javalin so ground launch vehicles could very well become reality in the near future and both the Brimstone and Hellfire have a greater range than a Javalin but the Javalin is, of course, man-portable

There are all kinds of old tank / APC hulls in storage that could be adapted to be missile carriers

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qi...8ceb9d04eb8-lq

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...fqHJA&usqp=CAU

Or just adapt the helo mount for vehicles would seem doable
https://duotechservices.com/wp-conte...re-missile.jpg

Re: Helo News game related.

Here nice photo of Mi-8AMTSh which is actually modern version of Mi-8 in Russian Army

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/china-send...the-sanctions/

https://mil.in.ua/wp-content/uploads...05246116-1.jpg

Airbus H125 Ecureuil are still delivered they belong to Border Guard but as Ukrainians said they also are use in military duties.

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/state-bord...w-helicopters/

https://mil.in.ua/wp-content/uploads...-1536x1024.jpg

Re: Helo News game related.

Now pass around a year from this event a Mi-8 and Mi-24 supply raids to azovstal. Here short movie 5:12

https://youtu.be/XxZDQ_dKpQI

Re: Helo News game related.

Osprey in it's current configuration may be officially dead, perhaps too many design flaws.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/...C=eb_230327.nl

Re: Helo News game related.

New tech, and the Osprey is still essentially new tech, ALWAYS has problems (ask any engineer).

Only fools expect 100% reliability and safety from anything, even more-so if they're dumb enough to expect it from new tech.

Re: Helo News game related.

Rather nice vid on CCP helo development and types.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h00t5mn_Xao

Re: Helo News game related.

USA "FARA" goes the way of the "COMMANCHE" (Which already was in the game when I came along but, not for long soon afterwards!?! ;)) The first is where I found this out and the second goes into greater detail on how it's affected other USA helicopter programs along with some "pipe dreams" such as the COMMANCHE (And now FARA.) and others.
https://www.flightglobal.com/helicop...ent=newsletter
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/techn...ed/ar-BB1igrVm

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: Helo News game related.

The RAH-66 was in the July/2003 version of the US OOB but gone by the March/2005 release. There was an early "future" weapons phase some OOB designers went through which caused no end of aggravation later on when none of the projects made it past the "great idea" phase. At the time it was put in the project had not yet been canceled ( 2004)

Re: Helo News game related.

Don was getting that "SECURI" notification again and had to delete all my references concerning the below You know how I do business for now based on that the below is good. I had 10-12 refs to support what I have below but am "burnt out" at present the one's about NORWAY are good. Something on Shrapnel's security side must not like "linked" articles attached to MSN and Yahoo. It's just my best guess because one or the other above caused an issue you might remember on a post; I sent a PM to you on within the last months. I was able to post it upon removal. Just would be nice to know if the site changed its security protocols concerning refs from the web, never saw this "SECURI" issue until recently but verified that is a web-based security firm.

They actually were around for much longer the COMMANCHE see "FBPP" for the following:

Page 3; Post #27 11-21-10, 07:40 PM Item 4 and

Page 4; Post #40 01-23-11, 09:03 PM HELO Section Items D3. & D4. (Israel) bottom of the page.

That a small part of 3 almost full pages of submissions in the Patch Post Thread in the time above.

My favorite post was when I submitted the NH-90 (Top of Page 5 Item A4.) (That turned out to be a very unreliable helicopter.) for the "hidden" OOB of NEW ZEALAND I came across in the game!?! :p

Anyway to say the least it didn't get in the game. :D

I think Don would agree if he went done "memory lane" after this would agree was "one heck of a year" or something like that.

Also submitted a couple of more "clean up" items at the very bottom of that same page, one of which I believe went back to the original game.

New Zealand above, just reminded me of the following:

AUSTRAILIA/CHANGE/NZ MH-90/UNIT 446/NAME/NH-90 Taipan VICE NZ NH-90 (Sorry I had to laugh when I saw that given the above!)/END DATE/SEP 2023 VICE DEC 2025. // These helicopters have been nothing but trouble since they've operated. Germany is another major operator that's had problems with one European operator telling the manufacturer to take theirs back, and they did. A second tragic crash late last Summer was "The straw that broke the camel's back. "

They were planned to be in service until 2037.

And as seems usual when I find things: :rolleyes:
NEVER MIND the :rolleyes: at first, I thought there was more to the next until I rechecked it.

AUSTRAILIA/CHANGE/S-70 BLACKHAWK/UNIT 444/NAME/S-70A-9 Black Hawk VICE S-70 BLACKHAWK. // A minor change for a rainy day but it is their designation.

AUSTRAILIA/CHANGE/UH-60 Blackhawk/UNIT 445/NAME/UH-60M Black Hawk VICE UH-60 Blackhawk/START DATE/JUN/or OCT 2024 VICE APR 2024. // They only have 3 helos at this time being used for training. Thought I saw an article where they were thinking of leasing more from the USA
to expediate the training program. As you might remember I get the OFFICIAL Army "Newspaper" every week so like with the BOXER you'll have the FOC when I get it from them.

And BEFORE SOMEONE THINKS ABOUT IT, OFFICIAL means just that and NOT like ARMY TIMES/NAVY TIMES/MARINE CORPS TIMES etc. here.

Worthwhile "bits" from the above refs.:

"The irony of the entire Australian NH90 fiasco is that the nightmare helicopter was originally selected in preference to the UH-60M Black Hawk under the Air 9000 Australian Additional Battlefield Mobility Helicopter program back in 2004-05, apparently due to political and industrial considerations rather than operational ones."

"Australia is also expecting the delivery of new AH-64E Apache helicopters starting in 2025, to replace the Eurocopter EC665 Tiger attack helicopters."

IN CLOSING:

Concerning the NH-90 Taipan I can see END DATE of JUL 2023 as they did not fly again after the accident that month. What I summitted though was the official date vice the "safety-stand down" date. .

NORWAY was the country that has cancelled the contract and told them to come and get the rest.
"The Defense Ministry is concerned that “as of today, only eight have been delivered in a fully operational configuration. The fleet is currently required to provide 3,900 flight hours annually but in recent years it has averaged only about 700 hours.”
https://breakingdefense.com/2022/06/...r-replacement/
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/n...demands-refund
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/n...rs-with-mh-60r
(Between 2025-2027.)

Australia ALSO operates the MH-60R I didn't see it in the OOB. Bit tired if you or someone else wants to check please.
I believe I read they were on loan from the Navy for operational and ground support.

I can run this down tomorrow for info you need all I want is OOB VERIFICATION AND IF YOU WANT THEM IN IF NOT THERE.

This has been CAPS LOCK OR NOT mess throughout this post all day yesterday doing checks in continuous rain for over 8 hours and 7.5 miles. Unable to sleep (And counting sheep felt like I was checking buildings, magazines and other things again. If they come again tonight I'll sheer them and roast them when I'm finished. :fire: :cheers:)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Added 2250 my time.
From the Army News edition dated 31 August 2023 about 6 weeks after the crash and grounding of the NH-90; I highlighted key data below to support JULY END DATE which is more plausible now based on next below AHEAD of the article.

If you recall I discussed a similar issue with South Africa having grounded their ROOIVALK for 18 months (Which we did as well.) with a gap until I submitted the ROOIVALK Mk I when it became operational.

See FBPP Thread Page 11 Post #105 in A1 & C6 for more.

"Combined air assault a success
Capt Joanne Leca

Soldiers from 4 Regt, RAA take up positions during a bilateral air assault exercise on Exercise Alon. Photos: LCpl Riley Blennerhassett
MORE than 600 soldiers from the ADF, Philippines and US conducted an air assault near Rizal, the Philippines, during Exercise Alon as part of Indo-Pacific Endeavour.

Using a combination of air, sea, and land actions, with support from the US Marine Corps, the exercise began on August 20 with insertion of ground combat elements via MV-22B Osprey from MRF-D (USMC-Mine), launched from HMAS Canberra.

Close air support was provided by RAAF E-7A Wedge tail and F-35A Lightning II aircraft.

A helicopter assault force then established a link with the 3rd Philippine Marine Bde to secure the Punta Baja Airfield, and set up a forward arming and refuelling point.

On August 21, a joint raid was conducted at Tarumpitao Airfield by the combined forces, also with close air support.

Lt Isaac Jarvinen, of 1RAR, takes cover behind a wall during the air assault.

Lt-Col Noel A Gallaza, commander of the Philippines landing force, said the exercise demonstrated the defence forces’ collective strength to face any challenge.

“Only together, with our combined capabilities, equipment and soldiers can we promote security and stability in our region,” Lt-Col Gallaza said.

“It’s about unity and collaboration with our partners, that is why we are here.”

The event marked the first major training serial of the bilateral cooperation between the Armed Forces of the Philippines and the ADF as part of Indo-Pacific Endeavour 2023.

Commander landing force of th e Australian Amphibious Force Col Douglas Pashley said the activity was a tremendous success.

“I’m very impressed with the degree of integration and partnership I’ve seen on this exercise,” Col Pashley said.

“We came together less than two weeks ago, and then we were able to conduct a complex multinational air assault.

“We never do things alone; we always need a partner.

“Young Australians, Filipinos and US marines will remember this for the rest of their lives.”

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: Helo News game related.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH (Post 856084)

AUSTRAILIA/CHANGE/S-70 BLACKHAWK/UNIT 444/NAME/S-70A-9 Black Hawk VICE S-70 BLACKHAWK. // A minor change for a rainy day but it is their designation.

Pat

Save yourself a lot of typing or do a bit of investigation before making change suggestions like this. There are limits on unit names so NONE of this is really usable

The one above becomes

S-70A-9 Black H

In game reality what was there is more generally useable to a non-detail fetish player which is why "S-70 Blackhawk" was used.... it tells a player what it is and most importantly..... IT FITS the game name restrictions

VERY few players care that it is an A-9. It's fiddly rivet counting. S-70 Black Hawk with the name split into two words fits though but "UH-60M Black Hawk" does NOT fit the game format either and becomes UH-60M Black Ha when entered and dropping the M does not help

What was there was there because it worked when Black Hawk is Blackhawk and why the Black Hawks in the US OOB are Blackhawk

Re: Helo News game related.

Don,
Sorry didn't know about name restrictions in place.

As you know I'm about national nomenclature where possible as it's easy to track upgrades for a particular OOB as they are published.

But again, wasn't aware of name restrictions.

Just got home and turned on the TV and saw a video of Ukrainian troops withdrawing from Avanika in M-113's (Dutch ones.) and noted along both sides modified "SLAT" armor in that the mesh over the slats were of tighter "weave" then found on a chain link fence and sturdier as well. The same was mounted about 1 foot over the width and length of the roof line up to the hatch at least.

Would assume this would be true for most of the rest as well.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: Helo News game related.

Nothing showing up on line about it yet that I can find

Re: Helo News game related.

Saw the video on CNN/CBS Evening News. Yesterday and again this evening.

ALSO I need to step back the roof section to the BACK 1/4 of the roof to provide protection to the fuel bladders inside the hull at the rear of the M-113 tracks.

Found the video it comes fast around 40s mark just after you see troops on foot running in a wooded area.
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/202...g-lead-vpx.cnn

Just checked my link above and it works.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: Helo News game related.

Yes. I saw the short shot of it. I will add a slat version

found a photo

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=htt...6746a8b4b8fa77