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-   -   Jets & Planes but no UAV's here. (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=46891)

FASTBOAT TOUGH January 6th, 2011 04:29 AM

Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.
Well the usual "blah blah" here on my intentions which have been stated elsewhere in infinitive. In working on my last inputs for the upcoming patch I've noticed in some of the smaller nations I'm addressing major efforts are being made to modernize and or get the best "new" plane in their Air Force's as their budgets allow, Thailand being a perfect example of this tread which I'm addressing as stated above. So I'm starting with India who has some major concerns with their neighbor to the north and is representative to what's going on in Asia and S. America and by extension the surrounding regions. And we'll say goodbye to some stalwart "friends" like the HARRIER (On my list as well.) which has flown in ALL variants for the last time this past December for both the RN & RAF, to welcoming Russia and China's newest 5th generation fighters. So here we go off into the "wild blue yonder"!! Of course game related because I just don't have time for anything else. Anyone else up for UAV's?!? Anyway:

Won't (Hopefully?) spend as much time on this as land platforms but we all know air power as well as defence is a major if not unintended consequence for the game.


FASTBOAT TOUGH January 9th, 2011 12:44 AM

Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.
1 Attachment(s)
This is for the A400M fans out there which I believe someone started a thread on this plane as well. I even have a picture and if CINCLANTHOME has her way this June for her birthday that could be me, God help me!! Anyway no news when the further para trails are to take place this year. Will do my best to track this otherwise there's no point of it getting in the game.

Attachment 10740


FASTBOAT TOUGH January 9th, 2011 05:01 PM

Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.
4 Attachment(s)
Here's the new 5th Gen fighters I spoke of from the Chinese and Russians. I'll be using the KISS concept for now,
I like military-today.com for this purpose to the point & short and sweet unlike me, but always a good starting or rounding off source. And to prep for the game:
CHINA/CHENGDU J-20/C1/Internal Weapons Bay (IWB) UKN weapons at this time/.
Attachment 10751

Next the Russian fighter it was based on as we know the Chinese are great copycats with a high degree of technical sophistication also they might have received some help as well. This did not see service with the Russians.
Attachment 10752

Now for the Russians, and some game prep:
RUSSIA/Su PAK FA/JUN 2015/30mm Cannon &
A two seater will be made as well, this will be the one to watch as this is probably going to be the FB version.
Attachment 10749

And it's origin can be traced to this next fighter which is very hush hush shh!, but might see service later in it's own right.
Attachment 10750

These are too early for any game consideration for now until the the ground attack capability is either resolved by the FB variant or air to ground weapons capabilities are identified. These will be late game entries (Especially for the Chinese.) if at all. No hint of ground attack capability in a plane or jet means no interest on my part for this thread or game to me, that's for you know whom!?!. This also provides a home for a handful of issues I'm addressing on the dreaded list.
Well have other projects to work on, enjoy the rest of yours and have a GREAT week.


Marcello January 10th, 2011 06:04 PM

Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.

Next the Russian fighter it was based on as we know the Chinese are great copycats with a high degree of technical sophistication also they might have received some help as well. This did not see service with the Russians.
I would be very careful before stating that a design is derived from an other on the basis of some superficial configuration resemblance.
After all it is not like this...
was actually derived from this...

It is probably a safe bet that the chinese have sought whatever knowledge could be obtained; I certainly would not be surprised if some MiG 1.42 material was handed over to them or if sensitive F-22 data had ended in the hands of chinese intelligence and it cannot be ruled out that some of that might have been used in the design process. That however should not be mistaken for some kind of genetic inability to design from scratch.
When closing a technological gap it is only sensible to aquire foreign designs for evaluation, license/copy them and only once you have sufficiently mastered the technology move on to original designs. This has played out a number of times in the past: assuming that those copying and catching up would remain stuck there has caused its share of unpleasant surprises...

As for the PAK FA and the Berkut they are both already in the game, as SEAD assets: I suppose that's mostly to placate all the people that would be screaming if the latest whiz bang fighter was not available.In the game aviation primary task is CAS, which is somewhat of a cinderella as far as air forces are concerned and not something you want to throw a rare, expensive fifth generation air superiority fighter at. SEAD is probably the only "economic" employment of such aircraft that is included in the game.
Though I doubt the Berkut would enter production: it would be a wasteful duplication. I could see it happen for political/bureaucratic reasons if the Berkut was, say, a MiG project. Being both Sukhoi there is not even that rationale.

FASTBOAT TOUGH January 10th, 2011 10:51 PM

Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.
Well that being said I guess BERKUT will free up a slot for the Russians as it's only an experimental prototype/demonstrator, not to worry it'll join the U.S. and Israeli AH-X on the, yes, dreaded list.

Could be the same for the PAK FA as it's development is limited to the interceptor role thus far, at the very least I'll check for dates and make sure India has it too. I really didn't think they would be in so far out but times were different when they were put in the game I'm sure. Also a lot of developmental equipment got in as well that I know Don has been trying to clear up over the last couple of years, I have a few of those already posted with more to come as well. As to the Chinese the only real problem identified with them is the issues they've had in developing their own successful jet engine technology a problem they share with India and others in that field. That's why India and Russia are currently working together on a fighter now. Check broadsword.com for more on that and the following poor mans article.
I mean this with sincerity Marcello, thank you I wasn't planning on even checking these to see if they were in the game as stated above.


dmnt January 11th, 2011 07:43 AM

Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.
Patria to upgrade Finnish Hornets. Unfortunately there is no English press release, but hope machine translation will do:

A major order from the Air Force to Patria for Hornet fighter MLU2 series installations

Patria has received a major order from Air Force Hornet fighter MLU2 system upgrade kit installation. The order is worth more than EUR 24 million and its effect on employment is about 150 person-years.

The Air Force has ordered Patria Hornet fighter MLU2 system upgrade kit installations. Order as a whole covers 35 Hornet fighter aircraft modification and related components and network processing. Work will begin in 2012, and installations made between 2013 to 2015 machines during normal maintenance periods and structural upgrades.

Work undertaken by Patria Aviation and Systems business, Jämsä Hall, where the human resources to be added over the coming years thanks to your order. The order is valued at over EUR 24 million and its effect on employment is about 150 person-years.

"Hall's office is already taking place MLU2 upgrade support and preparatory works. Patria We worked in close cooperation with the Air Force and MLU2 systems comparable with the U.S. Navy since 2004, when a system update for the implementation of the planning started, "says Senior Vice President Calvin Matikainen Patria.

The Air Force goal is to upgrade all 62 planes until the end of 2016. Patria has previously taken the Air Force's Hornet fleet of the first system update (MLU1) between 2007 -2010 as well as machinery for the acquisition of 57 single-seat F-18 C-model final assembly and testing.

For more information:

Senior Vice President Calvin Matikainen, Patria Aviation, tel 040 869 3351, lassi.matikainen @ patria.fi

Patria is an international defense and aerospace group, which supplies its own specialist know-how and partnerships, competitive solutions based on its customers. Patria is owned by the Finnish government and European Aeronautica Defence and Space Company EADS NV

Some info over what this upgrade includes: http://www.defence-observer.info/news/europe/427-f18

FASTBOAT TOUGH January 11th, 2011 01:15 PM

Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.
This touches on the Finnish upgrades. Also note the Jan. 6, 2011 entry, F35 slips to 2016 now vice 2015.
Got to get ready for work, have a major inspection this week. Have a great day everyone!


Marcello January 11th, 2011 05:23 PM

Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH (Post 768127)
Could be the same for the PAK FA as it's development is limited to the interceptor role thus far, at the very least I'll check for dates and make sure India has it too. I really didn't think they would be in so far out but times were different when they were put in the game I'm sure. Pat

The SU-47 has been around for a long time, IIRC it was talked about as the starting point for the next fighter project. Typically things have played out differently...
The PAK FA was put in last year just before the patch was released.
As far as I understand it is meant to be primarily a tactical fighter, though no doubt it will be used in the interceptor role too. I guess it is likely that at least some basic air to ground capability will be put in as well: there may be targets that would be best engaged by a stealth platform and it is not like Russia or India are going to be able to afford a dedicated stealth bomber very soon (there is some work being done but it will probably be a long time before it comes to fruition). In regards to timeline it is a bit too early make predictions as to when the russians, never mind the indians, are going to put it in service. According to some knowledgeable people it may well be that the chinese will come ahead...

FASTBOAT TOUGH January 12th, 2011 04:32 AM

Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.
1 Attachment(s)
Great discussion here!!
Go to CBS.com to the CBS Evening News (11 JAN. 2011) link for the story on SECDEF Gates meeting in China over defense issues. China decided to take the J-20 for a ride today while he was there sending a political message of their own. They made a comparison of the F-22 to the J-20, imagine that!?! It's all in the eye of the beholder I guess.
Another piece of the puzzle to the lineage of the PAK FA. Also note "The China factor" and March 16/10 section which is only part of the picture in Russian modernization and procurement over the next ten years, T-95 MBT anyone? We'll see.
Attachment 10762
Article I left off from Post #1 on PAK FA.

Links plane lineage to PAK FA.

Supports 2015 - 2017 start of production.

Very technical read I was thankful for some "signal training" but very through with a little bias.

Sets up the situation and DETAILS the factors involved. This from a very respected aerospace think tank.

I consider fighters in VERY BASIC terms like radar detectors for cars, as fast they are marketed, the police have counter measures, the new model comes out, the police have... and on it goes. Tanks are easier, (Hey maybe I'm sending a message of my own. Nay...not me!?!) much easier.


FASTBOAT TOUGH January 14th, 2011 03:19 AM

Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.
Well this will be my last post for a while I'm making my final push to finish my list between work etc.
I found this very interesting and touched on it yesterday, but the question is who was caught more off guard by the J-20 flight test the Chinese President Hu Jintao or SECDEF Gates, you decide.

Gates changing course based on other countries advances in equipment and accelerated procurement efforts. I see more RAPTORS which could mean more delays or less F-35s for the U.S. The last is my assessment concerning the F-35, but money is money and we have only so much to spend.
Gotta love them Navy boys even if those are only "targets", a little inside joke for my surface counterparts!

A little surprise for me with the next concerning the F-4. I had the fine privilege until recently to have worked with a retired USAF Maj. who flew combat missions in Vietnam in them. Being a gentleman and a great Irishman I salute him and all you Vietnam vets! :up::cheers:
He'll be glad to hear the AF is keep'em flying.

Good Night and have a GREAT weekend everyone!


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