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-   -   Mod: Nation - Tomb Kings - v1.03 released (March 2009)! (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=35201)

rdonj March 10th, 2009 06:41 AM

Re: Nation - Tomb Kings - v1.02 released (March 2009)!
 
Hmm... I'd always overlooked the Tomb Princes before, but with an e9/w9 bless they can be rather shockingly effective at expanding :) Until it runs into an indy fire mage who casts fire darts once, gets lucky and nails you for 10 damage, and then the lingering fire damage kills him. Curse you, lucky indy fire mage!

Also, I guess I was overreacting a bit to the gold cost. I just am remembering back to warhammerama where I had like 1000 upkeep, with mostly just sacred commanders and my immortals.

llamabeast March 10th, 2009 08:05 AM

Re: Nation - Tomb Kings - v1.02 released (March 2009)!
 
Right! Madness! I appear to be gently cracking up and thinking about this mod too much. As such I'm just about to upload a v1.03. This time I promise I won't release any more for a bit, and sorry everyone for the ridiculous flurry.

- I was still feeling very uncomfortable about the Immortals. They are your best troops, sacred _and_ immortal. Being as you have many H3 priests and are likely to take high dominion, it might be very feasible to push your dominion and fight major battles with these unkillable troops. Not only are they immortal, they're also extremely hard to kill. Possibly more importantly, they were probably the most unfair _feeling_ part of the mod, even if they weren't too overpowered. With mod nations you have to be careful because people always wonder whether the balance was done properly. As such they now cost 3 death gems, and are mildly easier to kill (-1 def, 25% more fire vulnerability, a bit lower MR). Because of their high protection and tower shield killing them will still be a victory for your opponent, and will still be a hollow one because of their immortality. I think they are still worth going for.
- The Tomb Kings were adept at soloing with their AOE fire. That was never the intention, I just wanted them to be able to defend themselves from assassins. As such they now just have secondary effect fire, rather than small area fire. With the recent magic improvements you can easily forge them a fire brand if you want to.
- I was really struggling with the cost of the Ushabti and Ushabti avatars. Finally I thought I'd go for the cheaper option because I like them. That seems to be a common rule in Dominions, nicely thematic things are also affordable. The resulting change is a frankly undramatic one - Ushabti go back to 12 earth gems (from 14), and avatars to 35 earth gems (from 40). What a waste of llamabrainpower!

llamabeast March 10th, 2009 08:08 AM

Re: Nation - Tomb Kings - v1.03 released (March 2009)!
 
Yeah, the Tomb Princes are pretty awesome really. Try giving one two Black Steel Tower Shields!

llamabeast March 10th, 2009 08:32 AM

Re: Nation - Tomb Kings - v1.03 released (March 2009)!
 
Sorry, Kite Shields, they can't hold Tower Shields because they're mounted.

rdonj March 10th, 2009 04:15 PM

Re: Nation - Tomb Kings - v1.03 released (March 2009)!
 
Hmm... now we've got the kind of funny situation where an unequipped prince (140 gold) is a more effective fighter than an unequipped tomb king. Unthematic for sure, but having made a game just to eploit the fact that with a good bless they're great at epanding AND can't die as long as you stay in your dominion... I can completely see the reason from a balance point of view. But it's just not fair, all the other 500 gold commanders can do it! /cry. Actually tomb princes may be a bit undercosted come to think of it, although I'm sure it's already hard enough to convince people to buy them. I think I'll play around with them some more before you hit them with the nerf stick :)

I'm not really sure that the world is in so much danger from a dominion push/immortals strategy. You'd still need buried pushing your borders so you could preach down enemy dominion, and your god will be dormant until year 3 to give you a good bless, limiting your dominion spread somewhat. But I will grant that it is probably possible to spread your dominion much more than your opponent would like. And if you own one or two capitols, that's a lot of ground that probably has your dominion in it to fight your immortals in. The immortals are still good, but you need to have a more cohesive strategy to use them now, so I suppose that is a point in the direction of balance.

llamabeast March 10th, 2009 04:36 PM

Re: Nation - Tomb Kings - v1.03 released (March 2009)!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rdonj (Post 679248)
Hmm... now we've got the kind of funny situation where an unequipped prince (140 gold) is a more effective fighter than an unequipped tomb king. Unthematic for sure, but having made a game just to eploit the fact that with a good bless they're great at epanding AND can't die as long as you stay in your dominion... I can completely see the reason from a balance point of view. But it's just not fair, all the other 500 gold commanders can do it! /cry. Actually tomb princes may be a bit undercosted come to think of it, although I'm sure it's already hard enough to convince people to buy them. I think I'll play around with them some more before you hit them with the nerf stick :)

Well, the Tomb Prince is in a chariot. It's not that he's fundamentally stronger. If you get the Warrior King hero (a Tomb King in a chariot) I'm pretty sure he's much stronger than a Tomb Prince. Anyway like you say it sounds like it was good for balance if you were successful in using them for expansion. As for all the other 500 gold commanders being able to do it - yep, but I think the Tomb Kings are probably more powerful mages than any of them!

I doubt that I will nerf the Tomb Princes. People never buy non-mages anyway, so it's nice if a recruitable thug is worthwhile for once. I'm glad if you're liking them. Actually I don't foresee any more nerfing in general, subject to feedback from MP games; I've fixed the issues that were concerning me.

Quote:

I'm not really sure that the world is in so much danger from a dominion push/immortals strategy. You'd still need buried pushing your borders so you could preach down enemy dominion, and your god will be dormant until year 3 to give you a good bless, limiting your dominion spread somewhat. But I will grant that it is probably possible to spread your dominion much more than your opponent would like. And if you own one or two capitols, that's a lot of ground that probably has your dominion in it to fight your immortals in. The immortals are still good, but you need to have a more cohesive strategy to use them now, so I suppose that is a point in the direction of balance.
Great! That sounds exactly like what I was aiming for.

Thanks for all of your comments rdonj. Your feedback is absolutely invaluable. It also makes it much more fun to have people commenting on things!

Sombre March 10th, 2009 04:47 PM

Re: Nation - Tomb Kings - v1.03 released (March 2009)!
 
I must admit I quite like the idea of Tomb Kings being badass as thugs/SCs. They are pretty nuts in warhammer after all, even leaving spells aside.

llamabeast March 10th, 2009 04:58 PM

Re: Nation - Tomb Kings - v1.03 released (March 2009)!
 
Well you can make them just as badass as they were for a few gems. A fire brand is better than their staff was, so they're only 10 (or 6) gems away. Actually I just did a little test, and even with just a demon whip (5 gems) and a W9 bless they're pretty effective. I suspect there are definitely some tactics to be had using them as top-end thugs.

rdonj March 10th, 2009 05:27 PM

Re: Nation - Tomb Kings - v1.03 released (March 2009)!
 
Perhaps tomb kings should get a change shape command that gives them a chariot :P

llamabeast March 10th, 2009 06:20 PM

Re: Nation - Tomb Kings - v1.03 released (March 2009)!
 
. :)


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