Looking for advice on site searching
 

Is it worthwhile searching with mages that have less than four levels in a path? What percentage of magic sites belong to what level?

Am I wasting my time searching with a level two mage, when I'm going to cast a site-searching spell on the province later? Or would I be wasting that spell as there is only a small percentage of level 3 or 4 sites? I'm looking for an experienced answer. How do you people do it - do you prefer the manual search or the spells?

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

I'm not sure, but I'd probably search with lvl 2 mages, until I got site searching spells going. There are very few lvl4 sites. A handful in total and there are several hundred sites. Some paths don't even have one IIRC.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

But when you do find one, oh baby! [unreal tournament voice]GAME CHANGING![/unreal tournament voice]

Anyways, I've heard that 95% of sites are level 1,2, or 3. So, manually site searching with a level 3 mage will pretty comfortably get you most of the sites. However, having a mage manually site search takes them away from other product uses like researching and takes two turns to search one province, to say nothing of the inevitable back tracking to make sure you get all the sites. So, once you have established a solid gem income, then switch over to site searching spells.

Also, target certain provinces types first. Nature sites seem more likely to be found in forests, while air sites seem more common in mountains and wastelands. Fields are always awful for sites. I've never heard an exact odds breakdown, though.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

I don't think it is possible to do a meaningful odds breakdown.

There are more forest restricted sites of nature., more waste restricted sites of fire and death. Earth and to some extent air sites tend to be more common in mountains.

Wastelands are generally your friend. Mountains, forest and swamps a bit so, while farms have decreased chance of sites.

I would guess that about 75% of all sites are lvl 0-2, 24% 3 and 1% lvl4. But of the lvl3 sites many are rare and thus less likely to be in tha game. Perhaps 80%-90% are sites findable by a lvl 2 mage. On the other hand, it is as Omikron says, the rarest ones you really want to find http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Some sites are unique and there can only be one on each map. Some of these are more common, meaning it is not unlikely that it exists on the map, while other uniques are very rare as well. Sites linked to terrains are more common in the sense that if there was forests all over the place they would be common, but since they are restricted they will not be that common. Since most maps have few swamps you could say that the swamp sites are rarer (many of them are water or nature).

There might be a list of sites somewhere in the modding threads. I don't think it presents rarity, but might display path requirements.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

Any idea on which type of site Astral is most common? Or is there one for Astral? I'm having a hard time finding any in a game I am playing.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

Another thing, there are ways to maximize odds when site searching. Depending on your initial site frequency set when the game was set up, each province is likely to have roughly 2 or fewer sites. Having 0 or 4 sites is statistically unlikely. Hence, if you've already searched a province for one magic path and did not find any sites, then its likelier for other path searches to reveal some sites. However, if a province already has two or three sites found in it, then the odds of any additional searches being successful go down. At 4 sites, the odds are zero.

Does anyone know the exact mechanic for assigning sites?

Edit: Astral Sites don't seem to have any preference for province type. However, I have had some luck generating additional astral income by using priests to site search. Most holy sites generate astral income. If nothing else, it gives your priests something to do when not needed to call back a Pretender or preach.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

Hrm, where is it documented that 4 sites is the maximum per province? I am wondering if this is the case in the CB mod too. Anyway, this is useful information. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif It seems like 4 is a magic number regarding magic sites.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

Yes, 4 is the maximum number of sites that any province can have.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

Omikron just gave some terrific advice. If you find yourself lagging behind on the astral gem income, Holy searching is definitely the way to go.

Bonus: Holy-only units are less useful than mages in most cases so you're not losing research, ritual magic, or item crafting by searching with them.

You will notice that your Astral gem income from holy site searching is very significant.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

Take a look at this:
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...amp;Forum=f187

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

Dom3 DB. Has a full list of sites, including level requirements, rarity and what terrain they appear in.

Out of the 709 sites, 149 are national start sites or sites that only appear by event, special script or in special scenarios, so they can be disregarded. That leaves 560 sites that can appear randomly.

All paths have at least one lv 4 site. Astral has 4, Holy, Fire and Death have 2, Nature has 3. All told there are 17 lv 4 sites out of 560 possible random sites and all lv 4 sites are rare. Meaning that if they get rolled on the first try, the site is rolled again and if you also get it on the second try, only then will it be placed in the province. In actual games I've found 10 of them all told and that's including all of my Dominions 2 games.

There are 66 lv 0 sites (meaning automatically visible), 16 rare (3 unique), 22 uncommon (8 unique) and 19 common (0 unique) and 16 of them are unique.

There are 252 lv 1 sites, 65 rare (9 unique), 119 uncommon (35 unique) and 68 common (1 unique).

There are 158 lv 2 sites, 70 rare (29 unique), 86 uncommon (25 unique) and 2 common (1 unique)

There are 68 lv 3 sites, 42 rare (30 unique), 18 uncommon (17 unique) and 7 common (no unqiues). The remaining one is a special site with special defenders and appears very rarely if it gets selected for in the determination of special provinces.

Another note about unique sites is that they can only appear once on the map, no matter their frequency, unless they are scripted in the map file, because map file scripting is run only after random site determination has been done.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

Nice break down.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

I'll post a breakdown by magic path later. Right now I've got to go.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

Okay, here's a breakdown of sites by path and level within each path. Startsites are excluded and so are The Desert Eye and Throne of the World because they only appear in that one scenario.

574 sites, around 560 of which are truly randomly determined. There is no analysis of what sites appear in what terrain, that would require a separate crosschecking against the DB and is much more work than I care to do. Effective number means that special sites (frequency 5, appears from event or invalid locmask) are not included.

FIRE, 56 sites (54 effective)

• Level 0: 5 sites, 1 common, 2 uncommon (1 unique), 1 rare, 1 special scriptable (Desert)
• Level 1: 29 sites, 7 common, 12 uncommon (1 unique), 9 rare, 1 special (36 Oleg's Alchemical Device)
• Level 2: 17 sites, 0 common, 12 uncommon (4 unique), 5 rare (2 unique)
• Level 3: 3 sites, 1 common, 1 uncommon (1 unique), 1 rare (1 unique)
• Level 4: 2 sites, rare, unique (180 Prison of the Desert Sun, waste; 533 The Sun Below, waste, cave)

AIR, 57 sites (56 effective)

• Level 0: 4 sites, 1 common, 1 uncommon, 2 rare (2 unique)
• Level 1: 31 sites, 7 common, 13 uncommon (4 unique), 11 rare
• Level 2: 14 sites, 0 common, 11 uncommon (3 unique), 3 rare
• Level 3: 7 sites, 1 common, 2 uncommon (2 unique), 3 rare (2 unique), 1 special (22 Bolivar's Tower of Reflections, no locmask)
• Level 4: 1 site, rare, unique (213 Palace of Dreams, plains only)

WATER, 89 sites (87 effective)

• Level 0: 11 sites, 4 common, 2 uncommon, 4 rare, 1 special scriptable (561 Tundra)
• Level 1: 45 sites, 13 common, 25 uncommon (8 unique), 6 rare, 1 special (26 Starke's Ice Cave)
• Level 2: 25 sites, 0 common, 9 uncommon (1 unique), 16 rare (6 unique)
• Level 3: 7 sites, 1 common, 1 uncommon (1 unique), 5 rare (4 unique)
• Level 4: 1 site, rare, unique (245 The Sea Underneath, any land)

EARTH, 111 sites (102 effective)

• Level 0: 19 sites, 9 common, 4 uncommon (2 unique), 4 rare (3 unique), 4 special (28 Hoburg, 21 Mine of the Cyclops, no locmasks; 508 The Desert of Ptah, unique, waste; The World Pillar, unique, mountain), 4 event-based (68 Copper Mine, 69 Iron Mine, 67 Silver Mine, 66 Gold Mine)
• Level 1: 36 sites, 16 common (1 unique), 9 uncommon (2 unique), 11 rare (1 unique)
• Level 2: 29 sites, 1 common (1 unique), 15 uncommon (5 unique), 12 rare (4 unique), 1 special (37 The Deepest Cave of the Province, provided by event)
• Level 3: 12 sites, 1 common, 2 uncommon (2 unique), 9 rare (4 unique)
• Level 4: 1 site, rare, unique (The Factory, any land but cave)

ASTRAL, 58 sites (57 effective)

• Level 0: 3 sites, 0 uncommon, 3 uncommon
• Level 1: 24 sites, 4 common, 11 uncommon (1 unique), 8 rare (2 unique), 1 special (20 Surakid's Tower, no locmask)
• Level 2: 16 sites, 0 common, 10 uncommon (3 unique), 6 rare (3 unique)
• Level 3: 11 sites, 1 common, 1 uncommon (1 unique), 9 rare (8 unique)
• Level 4: 4 sites, rare, unique (314 Library of Time, any land but cave; 535 The Endless Field of Cubes, waste; 530 The Mountain of the Past, waste; 494 Throne of Enlightenment, mountain)

DEATH, 73 sites (72 effective)

• Level 0: 6 sites, 0 common, 4 uncommon (2 unique), 2 rare (2 unique)
• Level 1: 33 sites, 8 common, 17 uncommon (6 unique), 6 rare (2 unique), 1 special (27 The Queen's Galley, no locmask)
• Level 2: 20 sites, 0 common, 14 uncommon (4 unique), 6 rare (2 unique)
• Level 3: 12 sites, 1 common, 3 uncommon (3 unique), 8 rare (6 unique)
• Level 4: 2 sites, rare, unique (482 Crown of Darkness, mountain only; 346 The Shadow Furnace, any land)

NATURE, 86 sites (83 effective)

• Level 0: 13 sites, 3 common, 5 uncommon (3 unique), 2 rare (1 unique), 2 special (542 Lyfjaberg, unique, mountain; 505 The Primal Forest, unique, forest), 1 special scriptable (560 Rain Forest)
• Level 1: 37 sites, 11 common, 18 uncommon (8 unique), 8 rare (2 unique)
• Level 2: 24 sites, 1 common, 12 uncommon (3 unique), 11 rare (5 unique)
• Level 3: 9 sites, 1 common, 3 uncommon (3 unique), 5 rare (4 unique)
• Level 4: 3 sites, rare, unique (387 Soul of the Wild, any land but cave; 532 The Previous Forest, waste; 493 The Vale of Unicorns, forest)

BLOOD, 39 sites (38 effective)

• Level 0: 2 sites, 1 common (388 Arena), 1 uncommon (390 Academy of War)
• Level 1: 20 sites, 1 common, 14 uncommon (5 unique), 5 rare (2 unique)
• Level 2: 12 sites, 0 common, 1 uncommon (1 unique), 11 rare (7 unique) (one of the rare sites, 634 Bloodshade Glen, cannot be found because it has an invalid locmask)
• Level 3: 4 sites, 0 common, 2 uncommon (2 unique), 2 rare (1 unique)
• Level 4: 1 site, rare, unique (405 Hall of Flayed Skins, any land but cave)

HOLY, 11 sites (10 effective)

• Level 0: 2 sites, 1 rare, 1 special (506 Holy Crypt of Anre, any land but cave, unique)
• Level 1: 2 sites, 2 common (1 any land, one only in sea)
• Level 2: 2 sites, 2 uncommon (1 unique)
• Level 3: 3 sites, 3 uncommon (2 unique)
• Level 4: 2 sites, rare (410 Temple of Time, any land, non-unique; 414 The Ward, any land but cave, unique)

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

This is really useful! Should be added to the strategy index pronto.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

I have not yet encountered a single level 4 site in my 7 months of play. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

Keep at it. Especially if you play with higher site frequency and religiously search for sites, you will see them sooner or later.

I've got to see if I still have the Dominions 2 small Faerun SP game around where I had IIRC 3 lv 4 sites in the same province. Yes, count'em, 3 level 4 sites! Searched in one of the waste provinces and the place came up with The Sun Below, Prison of the Desert Sun, The Sea Underneath (all lv 4) and The Sea of the Tears of Men (lv 2 rare). Or then I had that lot in two adjacent provinces. I did have all of them in the same game and the gem income from the province was absolutely ridiculous.

Unfortunately I do not seem to have that game anymore. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

So all you need is a lvl 2 search to get 70%. You can come back to get blood out of stones later.

Big point is to watch the dominion as a indicator that you need to spell search a province.

A 2 or 3 across the board rainbow awake starter can jump start your gem income early. The big problem is when he hits the inkpot and gets diseased. I lost a nice rainbow that I was using for this till research was high enough to convert him to a SC.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

Not quite. An across the board lv 2 search will net you roughly 85% of possible random sites. It will miss the common (and commonly found) lv 3 sites for FAWESDN (Bronze Pillar, Cave of Clouds, Weeping Stone, Iron Cliff, Crystal Garden, Well of Pestilence and Grove of Evergreens) that each provide 1 gem of the site type. Well of Pestilence also increases death scale, so it's easy to spot unless you have death dominion. The others need either lv 3 search or radar spell. But generally that income is peanuts compared to the general lv 1 and 2 sites.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

I am rediculously miserly when it comes to site-searching spells. I don't think I would recommend this style of play necessarily.

But, I will go around manually site-searching with level 1 mages, even, as long as the mage doesn't have to walk too long to get there.

I do a cursory search with low level mages (lvl 1-3) for as many paths as I can, manually. Then I might site search with spells in certain spots -- say, mountains, forest, and waste -- and only spots where I haven't already found at least 1 or 2 sites. If I find 2 sites in a province, or sometimes just 1 if it's a plains or cropland, then I stop searching there.

So, I think even going over a province with a level 1 mage is enough, sometimes. Level 2, definitely, that is basically all you would ever need.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

Well, you'd miss out on the Summoning Circle (60% off blood rituals) and the Ultimate Gateway (50% off conjuration rituals) and a few nice indy mages like Shadow Seers.

Then again, I've usually got about zero gems in my reserves, so I might be going a bit overboard on the site searching.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

Great job Edi. And thanks others who posted as well.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

Related to the issue of strategy, how do you search when you take over another player’s land in MP? If you have very different paths, it is easy, you search. However, if you share a path, you have to decide if you should search or not. Do you assume the other player searched religiously with radar spells? Do you assume he will have missed some provinces or only used a low level mage? The absence of a site closer to the capital, to me, suggests it is more likely they searched, but can I be sure?

One does need to consider how many gem sites they had before you took their province, as that will give some indication on how seriously they were searching. Also, if it was a rush victory, the land was unlikely to have been checked, while a victory later in the game would suggest otherwise.

Spending on searches is a form of investment. You want to get a decent return and the first part of the thread helps one calculate that. However, the MP dynamic complicates things. Do you spend the gems/mage time for low returns? I guess part of it will depend on your need for gems, the time you think you will have to recoup the cost and what resources you have free to invest. However, any ideas on how to maximize the return are welcome!

BTW, great point on searches with holy units, thanks for that.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

To answer an earlier question, the limit of four sites per province has always been there, ever since the days of Dominions PPP. It may not have been stated anywhere in the manual, but it's one of the things that has so far been set in stone, in triplicate.

For the sake of completeness, site determination mechanics, courtesy of KO from the days of Dominions 2:

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

Once again, great compilation! I wonder when owning actual Dominions isn't necessary because Edi's "Dom Database 40 000" includes a turn-by-turn walkthrough of just how you lost. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

It's a bit inconvenient that Bowl of Blood automatic searching targets water provinces, when there aren't any blood sites in water. It would be nice if it skipped water provinces.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

Here is another question. If you find 70% of sites with a level two search, has anyone done the math on how many sites you find with a level one search?

I have in mind those indy mages you get that have one level in path that you don’t have otherwise. With level one they are of limited value, but if they would catch a fair portion of sites, perhaps they are more useful that I thought.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

Death, Astral and Blood 1 mages can casting site-searching spells straight off or after some hunting/empowering. Any way, Edi posted a list of sites where the relative commonness of sites of different levels was shown. Comparing those:

path: level 1 sites/level 2 sites
Fire 29/17
Air 31/14
Water 45/25
Earth 36/29
Astral 24/16
Death 33/20
Nature 37/24
Blood 20/12

Most paths have only 1 common level 2 site, but many common level 1 sites. I'd say level 1 searching finds about 2/3rds of the sites level 2 searcher would find.
Unique sites screw up the numbers somewhat. Earth has 10 unique level 2 sites, as an example, and Death has 9 unique level 1 sites and 6 unique level 2's...

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

Well, I make 66% of 70% to be 46%. That is not bad for those indies. You can always trade or alchemize the gems you don't need, but it could well be worth it.

Thanks again Endo

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

The best way to site search is a recurrent thread that I have followed for more than a year.

There has never been any consensus or decisive determination of the best technique because of the limitations that are the backbone of the game.

Everyone acknowledges that level 4 search finds all sites, in that path, which is preferable to lower level searches. The problem is that no nation has the wherewithal to check all the 8 paths (not counting blood) at level 4, either with manual search or site searching spells. Everyone has path limitations, gem limits, etc, which define boundries to searching abilities.

Thus I have concluded that the correct answer to site searching is to do the best you can with the available resources combining manual and site searching spells. If a province already has 4 sites, don't search it anymore. If you have searched at level 1, it is worthwhile to search again at level 2 to 4. If you have searched at level 2 or 3, a level 4 search is only practical if you have the resources available and no other pressing need for them.

Of course, if you have 2 or 3 mages with all 9-paths at level 4 or better, a manual search is recommended.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

I hadn't played water nations much until recently, except for some subbing, and I think I've been pretty inefficient in my site searching.

From Edit's DB it looks like sites are pretty sparse in the oceans. No blood of course, and:

In Sea: <font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Path Highest level
---- -------------
B None
HF 1
DN 2
AWES 3</pre><hr />

In Deep Sea: <font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Path Highest level
---- -------------
BHA None
FDN 1 *
W 2
ES 3

* According to DB, should be "none", but is at least 1.</pre><hr />

I really should have done this about 20 turns ago http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif.

Edit: Took a look at my game, and I think there are more deep sea sites than the DB suggests. Update coming soon...

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

The following sites data conflicts with games I'm in:

S456 Ancient Temple of the Deeps: H1, also exists in Deep Sea
S442 Kelp Forest: N0, also exists in Deep Sea
S443 Kelp Fortress: N1, also exists in Deep Sea

I'm not sure if there's any others.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

I'd missed these comments, vfb, so sorry for the long delay in reply: With regard to locmasks, I must rely on information provided by other parties. I can go over the data provided by EricM for patch 3.15 and check the locmasks, because they may have been changed for those sea sites. I only checked the ones in the shortlist and some others, so there may be some errors left over.

The DB is generally accurate, but it is NOT infallible.

Not yet anyway... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

Thanks! I didn't see any other sites besides these, that don't match the data in your DB.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

Sorry for reviving an old thread from the Strategy Index, but I have the following question regarding site searching and Edi's incredibly valuable database:

The "Era" column says "applicable only for national sites". I'm assuming this means:

1. Anything without an Era tag can be spawned in any Era?

2. Sites with an Era tag can only spawn in Capitals, or is there some other meaning of "national sites"? I'm unsure of this because there seems to be far more "national sites" than "nations", but maybe each "nation" draws a random national site for its Capital.

Any insights? Thanks in advance.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

Haven't looked at this in the database, but I assume the Era tag only applies to capital-only sites and is intended to distinguish between capital sites of the same names that have different cap-only units and/or produce different gems in different eras.

National sites do not appear randomly. Each nation gets one or more in it's capital.

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

One more question. Edi's 'SiteMasks' have fields like "any land but forest, swamp".

Let's say you are trying to figure out if some MagicSiteX can spawn in a province. The MagicSiteX is tagged with "any land but forest, swamp". If the province you are searching has Farm and Swamp site features.

Does that mean that MagicSiteX CANNOT spawn there because it violates the "but swamp" condition?

...or, CAN it spawn there because the province has Farm, which meets the "any land" condition?

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

I have read this and the older post from end to end. Maybe I am just still not understanding this game or perhaps I have missed a thread that explains it.

It seems when I am playing a nation like ARCO I seem to find a lot of , Earth, Astral and Air and some Nature. But rarely Death or Fire (even If I use the spells).

If I play a Fire or Death Nation, I tend to find more of those sites.

Does the creation of the map after nations are taken have any reference to the sites you find.

I would think not, but it sure SEEMS like it does.

Thanks

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

Observer bias ;)

Re: Looking for advice on site searching
 

It definitely does not. (Even if it did, unless it also took into account initial placement it would pretty much be a wash in any but the smallest games.)

Observer bias as rdonj said. You're also most likely searching more completely in the paths you're strongest in. It's really only fair to compare income in paths you've searched completely ... and subtract any capital income.

I've definitely had very bad luck with national path sites in some games. One MP as Man, I think I'd found maybe an extra 2 Air gem income, but had found Necromancers and was swimming in Death gems. MA Man as a death power, not where I was planning to go... Then I got stomped by Ermor.

In general, I think I tend to find more Nature and Death than others but it varies.