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-   -   Wishlist: Assassinations (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42468)

Dorjan March 1st, 2009 12:54 PM

Assassinations
 
Now this feature of the game is so bugged that I fear the game is unplayable for me, I hope I'm not the only one who feels this way either and can be remedied by the creators :)

Assassinations start with 5 bodyguards (assuming you have them) and the intended target in thier usual position. The assassin is on the other just like a normal battle.

Now this is what changes and ONLY changes from what I can see, the bodyguards will charge the enemy instead of hanging around the target. The assassin will attack and normally takes on the bodyguards.

Nothing is wrong at this point.

Then you have the target. He (1) will follow his normal army macros and cast battlefield spells etc... (2) run away if one or two of the bodyguards die.

What the hell?

1) Why would your mage with 6 levels in one magic NOT BLAST THE ENEMY INTO SUBMISSION but instead use a battlefield support spell then "wait" for several turns and die.

1.A) One solution I can think of is "banning" certain spells and orders from Assassinations. Most battlefield spells aren't good for this sort of thing, they should be "ignored" from the list of orders and they should follow the normal ai of "what is best", which normally would be alright. Also any "wait" commands should be ignored for this situation. This will allow mages to actually DO something in assasinations, instead of just sitting there waiting to die....

2) A top hero of the nation, Morale 19, Leading the troops over and over again, sees one die and decides to run leaving 4 men to take on the assasin... he leaves the battlefield and is DEAD. Totally spoiling the game.

2.A) Well getting rid of morale is wrong, but morale checks for lossing men should be removed for this. Instead, a man fails a morale check freezes for a turn (so lose a turn for a single failed morale check) or something like that. In otherwords Paralized with fear instead of running and dieing for no good reason.


I really hope this will be addressed even if my solutions aren't used because, honestly, it ruins the game.

Fantomen March 1st, 2009 01:15 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
I partly agree on this.

But it is not a bug, a bug is something that doesn´t work the way it was meant to. This is just a mechanic you personally do not like and wants to be changed. That´s ok to discuss but don´t scream BUG every time you disagree with how the game works.

Second there are ways around this. Practice a bit on countering assassinations and you´ll see that there are many ways.

Assassinations are meant to be painful, but it is actually quite hard to make them effective in MP. Possible, but hard. So no nerf is called for.

But yeah, I´d like the scripted orders to be cancelled during assassinations too. Sometimes they are actually, ususally when you script big battlefield spells using gems.

Dorjan March 1st, 2009 01:38 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
No offence but Earth attack spell is common in all MP games I play. So what am I meant to use to guard a mage?

I can't find anything.

As for it being a bug, the reason I call it a bug is becasue I cannot believe the creators would've wanted this...

llamabeast March 1st, 2009 01:38 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Units will always retreat if 75% of the starting HPs of their side have been lost. I guess that's what happened? It's not completely ridiculous. As to why your mage waited rather than casting I don't know, that's unusual. Perhaps he was completely fatigued? Or perhaps you had no combat spells researched that he could cast?

llamabeast March 1st, 2009 01:40 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Hmm, as a guardian against an earth attack you need something big. Maybe a Crusher? That should easily hold it to give your mage time to get to the end of his script and do something clever.

Loren March 1st, 2009 01:42 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
I think he does have a point about battlefield spells. One should not use offensive battlefield spells in an assassination.

llamabeast March 1st, 2009 01:43 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
They won't use anything that requires gems in an assassination. The AI is reasonably smart with gem use.

Dorjan March 1st, 2009 01:44 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by llamabeast (Post 677558)
Hmm, as a guardian against an earth attack you need something big. Maybe a Crusher? That should easily hold it to give your mage time to get to the end of his script and do something clever.



What if you are caelum? They are mages that travel 3, the speed 2 elites are useless to defend and I would have to slow my entire army down (removing one of caelums advantages) to even give a single mage per summon, a chance.

If the mage was a battlefield support mage then he would die anyway as he would just end up casting a battlefield spell and waiting 4 turns

Dorjan March 1st, 2009 01:45 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by llamabeast (Post 677562)
They won't use anything that requires gems in an assassination. The AI is reasonably smart with gem use.

They do. I've had it happen loads already.

Endoperez March 1st, 2009 02:13 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
If you can spare Water gems, Bottles of Living Water. 10 Water gems each, less if your Caelum has Icecrafters (forge bonus), even less if you have Dwarven Hammers. Summons a new Water Elemental at the beginning of battle, so no losses unless you lose and it doesn't even slow your army down.

There is, however, problem with the 75% hp-loss rule. The elemental has several forms, but only the first one is calculated for the starting hp. That means that you still have to have other bodyguards. Something with high hp, like Wyverns, might help a little.

quantum_mechani March 1st, 2009 02:19 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorjan (Post 677564)
Quote:

Originally Posted by llamabeast (Post 677562)
They won't use anything that requires gems in an assassination. The AI is reasonably smart with gem use.

They do. I've had it happen loads already.

I have as well actually.

That said, assassination falls into the category of quite niche at best.

cleveland March 1st, 2009 02:22 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
I liked Zeldor's idea of allowing a 2nd script specific for assassination.

That might have just saved a Mother of Avalon who, when alone and staring down the barrel of an Emposioner, let loose with Mass Protection (which does require gems). If a barkskinned, exhausted mage falls in an assassination, and no bodyguards are around to hear it, does she make a sound? :confused:

llamabeast March 1st, 2009 02:33 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Quote:

If the mage was a battlefield support mage then he would die anyway as he would just end up casting a battlefield spell and waiting 4 turns
Why do you have your mages scripted to wait four turns? If you had them on [support spell][cast spells] they'd at least be able to defend themselves after the first round.

llamabeast March 1st, 2009 02:33 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Quote:

That might have just saved a Mother of Avalon who, when alone and staring down the barrel of an Emposioner, let loose with Mass Protection (which does require gems). If a barkskinned, exhausted mage falls in an assassination, and no bodyguards are around to hear it, does she make a sound?
Gosh, that's shocking. I really didn't think it would do that.

Dorjan March 1st, 2009 02:47 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by llamabeast (Post 677584)
Quote:

If the mage was a battlefield support mage then he would die anyway as he would just end up casting a battlefield spell and waiting 4 turns
Why do you have your mages scripted to wait four turns? If you had them on [support spell][cast spells] they'd at least be able to defend themselves after the first round.

Because it's set up for a army situation, I want them to rest for 4 turns so they won't be fatuged and able to cast bigger spells when the scripting ends :)

Dorjan March 1st, 2009 02:48 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani (Post 677577)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorjan (Post 677564)
Quote:

Originally Posted by llamabeast (Post 677562)
They won't use anything that requires gems in an assassination. The AI is reasonably smart with gem use.

They do. I've had it happen loads already.

I have as well actually.

That said, assassination falls into the category of quite niche at best.

Wow, I've not played a MP game without at least 50 assasination attempts happening against me.

llamabeast March 1st, 2009 02:55 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Quote:

Because it's set up for a army situation, I want them to rest for 4 turns so they won't be fatuged and able to cast bigger spells when the scripting ends
Their fatigue doesn't drop by resting, unless they're already over 100 fatigue, in which case the scripting makes no difference. Or unless they've got an earth bless.

Who do you play MP with? I think assassinations are generally fairly rare in MP because in order to make a decent assassin you have to put a fair bit of effort in, which is probably more than the cost you'll cause to your opponent by killing a mage or two. There are exceptions of course, and things like Earth Attack are definitely common, although obviously they're pretty late game.

llamabeast March 1st, 2009 02:55 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Quote:

Because it's set up for a army situation, I want them to rest for 4 turns so they won't be fatuged and able to cast bigger spells when the scripting ends
Their fatigue doesn't drop by resting, unless they're already over 100 fatigue, in which case the scripting makes no difference. Or unless they've got an earth bless.

Who do you play MP with? I think assassinations are generally fairly rare in MP because in order to make a decent assassin you have to put a fair bit of effort in, which is probably more than the cost you'll cause to your opponent by killing a mage or two. There are exceptions of course, and things like Earth Attack are definitely common, although obviously they're pretty late game.

quantum_mechani March 1st, 2009 03:07 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorjan (Post 677587)
Quote:

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani (Post 677577)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorjan (Post 677564)

They do. I've had it happen loads already.

I have as well actually.

That said, assassination falls into the category of quite niche at best.

Wow, I've not played a MP game without at least 50 assasination attempts happening against me.

That's pretty odd... are we talking about a lot of cheapo assassins, or a few really elite ones?

The problem, is both kinds of some serious issues. A swarm of cheapo assassins can do really well the first turn or two they start, but usually just a few mundane bodyguards will do them in, which people quickly catch on to.

Elite ones can face down most bodyguards fine, but it only takes a few specially set up 'trap' mages with the right scripts to end their reign of terror.

Both kinds also ultimately have issues with patrolling and mind hunt.

EDIT: Unless, like llama pointed out, you are talking about one shot assassin spells, which are indeed all over the place.

chrispedersen March 1st, 2009 03:18 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Loren (Post 677560)
I think he does have a point about battlefield spells. One should not use offensive battlefield spells in an assassination.

Again, the problem is that assassination is overall not an effective technique.

If you change the scripting to have battlefield scripts and assassinations scripts - the balance shifts even *more* in the opposite direction.

In certain circles the moral is: surprise kills. And regardless of the mages rank and power, I should like there to be some possibility of them being assassinated.

Mithras March 1st, 2009 03:21 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Don't forget about patrolling and magic domes. Patrolling and high pd should clear out mundane assinations pretty well, especially if as you imply the mages that are getting assinated are with big armies. If your moving your armies the assisnations shouldn't be able to keep up, if your staying in one province then you might as well use that big army for something. If you don't have a big army then unscript the army wide buffs for something better at taking out assasins.

If its spell assasins that are bothering you then invest in some domes. Go for one that absorbs multiple hits or strikes back at the enemy, assasin spells are usually high level enough to make it worth hurting the caster.

Its all about having the right counters.

thejeff March 1st, 2009 03:26 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
A couple points:
I think gem use in assassinations follows the same rules gem use anywhere else does: if the enemy is a sufficient threat gems may be used. I'm pretty sure mages always count as sufficient threat.

Fatigue does drop by resting. 5 pts back any turn you don't act. I use it scripting self-buffing thugs. Wouldn't bother with other mages, since I'd rather burn fatigue casting scripted spells than whatever the AI picks.

Dorjan March 1st, 2009 03:42 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by llamabeast (Post 677588)
Quote:

Because it's set up for a army situation, I want them to rest for 4 turns so they won't be fatuged and able to cast bigger spells when the scripting ends
Their fatigue doesn't drop by resting, unless they're already over 100 fatigue, in which case the scripting makes no difference. Or unless they've got an earth bless.

I'm on about top mages (the lower ones can die to assasins all the time, I don't care) they will have revig items always (normally around 10)

Quote:

Originally Posted by llamabeast (Post 677588)
Who do you play MP with? I think assassinations are generally fairly rare in MP because in order to make a decent assassin you have to put a fair bit of effort in, which is probably more than the cost you'll cause to your opponent by killing a mage or two. There are exceptions of course, and things like Earth Attack are definitely common, although obviously they're pretty late game.

Earth attack is very common. Which is 99% effective. And late game (turn 60ish on high research?) maybe, but I still think it makes the game very annoying if not unplayable when your best heroes are dieing to a random elemental, not becasue they got stomped or punched. Rather becasue they ran? I just think that is unfair.

Give an assasin a frost brand and whatever armour is best against the element your opponant best uses and you'll find them easily killing two. Little cost, high gain imo. Once they get smart then you've just taken out 5xmages worth of troops out of their army in paranoia. Whats worse is if you make them do that with basic assasins then send an earth elemental at their top mages (or their army) they are sure to run becasue of their new bodyguards :)

Dorjan March 1st, 2009 03:45 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithras (Post 677596)
Don't forget about patrolling and magic domes. Patrolling and high pd should clear out mundane assinations pretty well, especially if as you imply the mages that are getting assinated are with big armies. If your moving your armies the assisnations shouldn't be able to keep up, if your staying in one province then you might as well use that big army for something. If you don't have a big army then unscript the army wide buffs for something better at taking out assasins.

If its spell assasins that are bothering you then invest in some domes. Go for one that absorbs multiple hits or strikes back at the enemy, assasin spells are usually high level enough to make it worth hurting the caster.

Its all about having the right counters.

Lets go for that shall we?

Moving army, (can't have domes since you are moving away and maybe no lab in new provence) so yeah, you avoid normal assasins but the magic ones get you.

Is dom3 meant to favour the defensive player? Just sit back, build domes and splatter your enemy with spells until they turn on auto AI?

Mithras March 1st, 2009 03:57 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
From what you describe I think investing in cheap ways to prevent assisnations from occuring is a good idea. Dome all your mage concentrations, and places where you expect your mages to move to, (a couple of gems and 500 gold for a lab is cheap in the late game) and put your pd up in your fortress/have idle armies of chaff patrol. Its not a hundred percent effective but if you invest in vast amounts of pd all over your nation then you only have to worry about the elementals, which you can tailor script your mages for the earth elementals.

Mithras March 1st, 2009 04:25 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
How many 5 earth mages does your enemy have? Chances are not many.
Taking this into acount what can you do about them?
Get a fire mage to put up a dome of flaming death on an area which is often attacked (make a target out of it) a couple of earth attacks come in and the mages get fried. Your aponent decides they're better off using their mages to cast earthquake.

If you scout around a bit you can find the locations of these earth mages now spam seaking arrow/ mind hunt depending on your enemy and hey they don't have earth mages anymore.

Or you can just gear up your mages like you said. Or get a few large body guards that wont be trampled. Hey look a niche use for the iron dragon :D!

You can also recruit loads of week comanders as alternative targets. Killing onme indy comander is not a good way to use a 5E mage.

All in all I'd call earth attacks more of an annoyance than game breaking. And I bet astral corruption would really annoy you :D

Oh and experiment with SCs. When you get something that eats earth attacks for appertizers before chomping through a good sized, mage supported army, and that can teleport, come back and say that about defensive strategies. They of course have their own counters.

Dorjan March 1st, 2009 05:51 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Some good ideas there!

The issue is with the people that can defeat earth elementals, not the ones that can't... my top mages need to be set to be able to kill other things during the battle and without bodyguards during the battle they will be vunl to flying troops...

Swings and round abouts I know, I just think that the way things are atm makes it stupid. I don't mind loosing men to a good assasin, I think it's great! GJ! But when someone runs from an assasin to die and doesn't even give it a shot makes me feel angry and not wanting to play (game breaking).

Everything else about dom3 plays how you expect. Why not this? There must be better options (like paralizing them in fear for failed moarle) instead of running and dieing so at least I can see it happening...

Endoperez March 1st, 2009 05:52 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thejeff (Post 677597)
A couple points:
I think gem use in assassinations follows the same rules gem use anywhere else does: if the enemy is a sufficient threat gems may be used. I'm pretty sure mages always count as sufficient threat.

Fatigue does drop by resting. 5 pts back any turn you don't act. I use it scripting self-buffing thugs. Wouldn't bother with other mages, since I'd rather burn fatigue casting scripted spells than whatever the AI picks.

Great post, but... wow, really? :confused: Never heard about that.

Dorjan March 1st, 2009 05:54 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Another thing to add to this (just happened).

A hero SC with a bow, fires then RUNS AT THE ELEMENTAL and gets trampled.

How can you say thats not broken? In a normal fight they stay at range and keeps firing!

Dorjan March 1st, 2009 06:21 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
[quote=chrispedersen;677595]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Loren (Post 677560)
Again, the problem is that assassination is overall not an effective technique.

Maybe so, but this isn't about effectiveness of it, i'm saying it spoils the game. When you see someone not acting... it's just.. stupid!

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrispedersen (Post 677595)
If you change the scripting to have battlefield scripts and assassinations scripts - the balance shifts even *more* in the opposite direction.

I agree, don't do that. However exclude certain things from the list like I stated. It would prevent silly things from happening and making me wanna uninstall the bloody game :lol:

[quote=chrispedersen;677595]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Loren (Post 677560)
In certain circles the moral is: surprise kills. And regardless of the mages rank and power, I should like there to be some possibility of them being assassinated.

Yeah, thats cool. But why make them "run" and die. Why don't you paralize them for a few turns in "fear" or something. At least then you see them getting stomped, I'd rather that then just running away or running towards with a ranged weapon.

JimMorrison March 1st, 2009 06:26 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Endoperez (Post 677623)
Quote:

Originally Posted by thejeff (Post 677597)
A couple points:
I think gem use in assassinations follows the same rules gem use anywhere else does: if the enemy is a sufficient threat gems may be used. I'm pretty sure mages always count as sufficient threat.

Fatigue does drop by resting. 5 pts back any turn you don't act. I use it scripting self-buffing thugs. Wouldn't bother with other mages, since I'd rather burn fatigue casting scripted spells than whatever the AI picks.

Great post, but... wow, really? :confused: Never heard about that.

Base Reinvigoration is 5 points, whether you act or not. "Resting" allows you to bank those 5 points (or more if you have Reinvig items on). Still, unless your unit is intended for melee (thug/SC with self buffs) there is literally no reason to have them wait. Fatigue is Fatigue, if you don't burn it with scripted spells, the AI will burn it with who knows what. It's worthwhile to note, your mage will resume his script when he wakes up. So an A2 mage scripted to (Summon Storm Power), (Thunder Strikex4) will get 2 Thunder Strikes off, then pass out, then pop up and blow off another Strike, and once more for good measure. Dangerous if you are worried about your army routing, but then best script for that mage is still (Summon Storm Power), (Thunder Strikex2), (Spells), assuming you wanted evo spam, rather than other things. Anyway, after the second strike, he should pass out for 2-3 rounds, and then generally will cast lower fatigue spells as applicable, so he's never out for more than a round at a time, and can flee if/when needed. However if you leave him totally unscripted, he may do something totally inappropriate like spam Ghost Wolves when you have TONS of chaff already, and need your mages doing damage.

JimMorrison March 1st, 2009 06:33 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorjan (Post 677624)
Another thing to add to this (just happened).

A hero SC with a bow, fires then RUNS AT THE ELEMENTAL and gets trampled.

How can you say thats not broken? In a normal fight they stay at range and keeps firing!

That is no SC. :p

I agree, the big remote spells, Earth Attack, Manifestation, and Infernal Disease, can be a real pain for some nations. Often, the cost/benefit doesn't seem to be there when someone is doing 1-2 casts a turn, and you have 60 valuable commanders that you need to protect. Doing so with summons is going to likely require at 3 gems in most cases, and possibly more like 5+. Expending 300 gems (that you probably don't have) to guard against 1-2 remotes a turn, just isn't very effective.

Domes are likewise usually not the answer, as an experienced player will assume their use, and avoid casting on your capital, or any other massive research center - the vulnerable target is the mobile target. When an army is on the move, the only thing you can protect from is Mind Hunt, the real assassination spells require serious bodyguards, and a single large army with 20 support mages is going to require a whole lot of bodyguards - quality guards - and they will all end up Diseased (unless immune) if it's a Blood nation casting at you. Nasty evil stuff.

As Caelum though, I'd agree that Bottles of Water, or Bags of Wind are your go-to solutions for assassins. You can use some summons, but it will be very gem intensive - the items are superior as they provide excellent battlefield usefulness, in line with their costs.

llamabeast March 1st, 2009 06:43 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Quote:

Fatigue does drop by resting. 5 pts back any turn you don't act.
This is just not true, unless you are over 100 fatigue. I just tested it to make sure.

vfb March 1st, 2009 07:15 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Maybe defending commanders in assassinations should refuse to cast any spell that would bring them over 100 fatigue. That should be a lot easier to code, rather than a second battle script for assassination defense. And it would handle the case of Fire Storm, Darkness, Mass Protection, etc, being cast for no good reason. It could be complicated for Leech/Life Drain though, since you might actually want to cast them, and the casting might bring the mage over 100 fatigue prior to getting reinvigoration back from the spell effect.

There are gem-using battle spells that you can script to protect yourself against assassins and remote assassinations, so I don't think that using gems should be totally disabled for commanders who are in assassination battles.

Dorjan March 1st, 2009 07:33 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JimMorrison (Post 677636)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorjan (Post 677624)
Another thing to add to this (just happened).

A hero SC with a bow, fires then RUNS AT THE ELEMENTAL and gets trampled.

How can you say thats not broken? In a normal fight they stay at range and keeps firing!

That is no SC. :p

OK, maybe not a SC but she is great supporting the army, trust me ;) One thing though, when SCRIPTED to FIRE, did she run at the enemy?


Quote:

Originally Posted by JimMorrison (Post 677636)
As Caelum though, I'd agree that Bottles of Water, or Bags of Wind are your go-to solutions for assassins. You can use some summons, but it will be very gem intensive - the items are superior as they provide excellent battlefield usefulness, in line with their costs.

AS a heavy item user not a single commander leaves home with a slot free.

they already have bags of winds, sprit helms, lucky shields, birch boots. That sort of thing.

But becasue they are scripted to be useful in an army not on their own, they all die to assasins.

Fantomen March 1st, 2009 07:43 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorjan (Post 677653)
AS a heavy item user not a single commander leaves home with a slot free.

they already have bags of winds, sprit helms, lucky shields, birch boots. That sort of thing.

But becasue they are scripted to be useful in an army not on their own, they all die to assasins.

There is no way to stay competitive like that, you need as many mages as you can possibly get. And you need to make most of them effective without or with very little equipment, almost regardless of nation.

There are countless examples of this. I think your problem with assassinations is that you invest too much in single mages and make those few indisposable. Filling every slot of every mage is just not gonna cut it ANY mp game.

In mid/late game you sometimes have 30-40 mages with a single army, a few of which may be "key" and fully equipped. And you want to field several armies.

thejeff March 1st, 2009 08:12 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by llamabeast (Post 677643)
Quote:

Fatigue does drop by resting. 5 pts back any turn you don't act.
This is just not true, unless you are over 100 fatigue. I just tested it to make sure.

You're right. I just tested it again too.

I could have sworn I'd seen it.

Dorjan March 1st, 2009 08:50 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantomen (Post 677655)
In mid/late game you sometimes have 30-40 mages with a single army, a few of which may be "key" and fully equipped. And you want to field several armies.

My armies have 20+ mages. I didn't mean all equipped but all key ones (about 15) per army.

And I have 3 armies.

Edit: Look we've moved away from the point.

>> This is not a rant because I am loosing, I am actually in a strong position in my current MP game and I am doing 2/3 earth attacks a turn myself.

I feel this is a feature that is broken because you can lose a top hero for a silly reason; because they ran away or cast a stupid spell / followed a script that is only good for a army support.

Now I know about balance and if you read the OP I was not saying to remove this or that I was offering sensible alternatives so you don't feel like screaming because a hero "runs" away when a single guard is killed even if they have morale 19.

llamabeast March 2nd, 2009 05:30 AM

Re: Assassinations
 
So, it is very annoying that your mages use the same script for battles and assassinations, I have to agree with you there.

Quote:

2) A top hero of the nation, Morale 19, Leading the troops over and over again, sees one die and decides to run leaving 4 men to take on the assasin... he leaves the battlefield and is DEAD. Totally spoiling the game.
I don't understand that, there's no reason to take a morale check when one bodyguard of five dies so far as I know. When a few die you'd expect it.

Anyway, if you like you could consider it some supernatural effect that the mage casting Earth Attack also enchants the victim so he isn't quick witted enough to adapt his plans. Or something like that. I can see it could be very annoying, but it's a sufficiently small part of the game that many of us have never seen it happen. Also there are a number of counters, as have been suggested. If your very best mages had Crushers as bodyguards they'd be fine, and I'm sure there are much neater counters.

llamabeast March 2nd, 2009 05:31 AM

Re: Assassinations
 
The reason I haven't commented much on your suggestions, by the way, is that I think they are unlikely to be implemented. Despite the game being more than two years old the devs still regularly make very significant patches, but the changes tend to fall into either bug fixes or additional content. They don't seem to like tweaking the rules.

Agema March 2nd, 2009 06:26 AM

Re: Assassinations
 
There's always the element of chance. Sure, your 19Mor guy ran away. But everyone will have stories of extreme luck: PD minions scoring freak huge hits on thugs/SCs and killing them; 25+ MR SCs failing a single mind control; and much more.

Yes, these are moments where you could tear your hair out in frustration, but it's part of the game. They are balanced out by the 99% of times the worst doesn't happen, but we have to remember that the 1% is always there and will eventually happen.

Dorjan March 2nd, 2009 06:46 AM

Re: Assassinations
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by llamabeast (Post 677715)
The reason I haven't commented much on your suggestions, by the way, is that I think they are unlikely to be implemented. Despite the game being more than two years old the devs still regularly make very significant patches, but the changes tend to fall into either bug fixes or additional content. They don't seem to like tweaking the rules.


Thank you for your honesty.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Agema
There's always the element of chance. Sure, your 19Mor guy ran away. But everyone will have stories of extreme luck: PD minions scoring freak huge hits on thugs/SCs and killing them; 25+ MR SCs failing a single mind control; and much more.

Yes, these are moments where you could tear your hair out in frustration, but it's part of the game. They are balanced out by the 99% of times the worst doesn't happen, but we have to remember that the 1% is always there and will eventually happen.

I would love to agree with you but it happens more than 1%, more like 80% of the time in an assasination the person runs when one or two of his bodyguards run unless he has morale of 30.

Thats why I would like to see a change. I honestly just want to see the target fight to the death! Thats all I want to see...

Dorjan March 2nd, 2009 07:55 AM

Re: Assassinations
 
"... bodyguards DIE unless he has morale of 30."

Sorry, it won't let me edit for whatever reason.

Gregstrom March 2nd, 2009 07:59 AM

Re: Assassinations
 
What are you using for bodyguards, btw?

llamabeast March 2nd, 2009 08:14 AM

Re: Assassinations
 
I think against Earth Elementals almost anything smaller than size 5 (or 6?) will be simply a hindrance.

He certainly won't run away until his side has started to take nasty damage so you have to avoid that happening.

Dorjan March 2nd, 2009 08:16 AM

Re: Assassinations
 
Yeah, I've tried loads of different bodyguards. All sacreds and size 3's but unless it's a size 6, they will die and they will cause the guy to run after about 2 dead.

Agema March 2nd, 2009 08:31 AM

Re: Assassinations
 
I haven't got the book handy to make this precise but I believe it works a bit like this.

Your "army" for the assassination consists of two units, the commander and the bodyguard. Unit morale checks are made after a certain proportion of HP damage (20-25%?) is suffered by the unit: with 5 bodyguards (assuming the same HP per trooper), one death and another injured could trigger it. For a unit with morale abut 10, it's relatively easy to fail a morale test (not far below 50% chance), and it will carry on taking tests, with increased chance of failure, as more damage is suffered. Once the bodyguard routs, the army will have probably reached the 75% threshold for autorouting, and the commander will flee as well. So your commander never actually takes a morale test himself - the autorout accounts for him. Consequently, you'd want bodyguards with as high morale as possible. Morale 10 bodyguards are risky, 14 is pretty safe, and 30/50/99 ideal.

Because of this, bodyguards can be a liability and if your unit is tough enough, it can be best without any bodyguard. Weak mages often just need a bodyguard to hold off the assassin long enough for the mage to fire a suitable spell or three. Alternatively, maybe try a 2-man bodyguard: enough to hold off an assassin for a turn or three but not enough to autorout the commander when they go. In my experience, a quality bodyguard + commander/mage should beat a recruitable assassin unless the assassin is very well equipped with magic gear, and even beat the angel from the spell Manifestation.

Earth Attack is the biggest problem - they can even kill Bane Lord thugs. You'd need a bodyguard composed of (as per the above comment) like Crushers that the elemental effectively can't kill. The other tactic is to put a huge swarm of unimportant chaff characters with the army: spending a lot of gems and the effort of an E5 mage to kill a 20-gold scout will give your opponent second thoughts. I'd argue even your average recruit-anywhere mages are less valuable than the cost of Earth Attack, and save the expensive bodyguards for the important/rare/expensive mages.

I do have a lot of sympathies: the assassination mechanics excite a lot of frustration for many users, not just for the defending target, but the ease with which many assassins can be defeated. As Llamabeast said, it's very doubtful they are going to change, so hopefully we can just explain how it's happening and supply some ideas so you can get the best defence up.

Dorjan March 2nd, 2009 08:37 AM

Re: Assassinations
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Agema
Alternatively, maybe try a 2-man bodyguard: enough to hold off an assassin for a turn or three but not enough to autorout the commander when they go.

Thank you! I never thought that, I was always taking one extream (full bodyguards) to the other (no bodyguards) but taking just two might be worth while!

And I understand that they might not want to change it. Thats cool, I'm glad to see that many also think that the assasinations (from both sides) is broken and therefore "buggish". Maybe for dom4 eh?

:D

Endoperez March 2nd, 2009 12:25 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
It could also be that the elementals cause lots of damage all around, and when the one or two guys die, the others are already badly wounded and total damage exceeds 75% of the total starting hps.

Dorjan March 2nd, 2009 01:02 PM

Re: Assassinations
 
Nah, as I said, this happens a lot to me :( a team of morale 17-19 blessed sacreds defending, 2 gets crushed, maybe 3 if i'm lucky before they route auto-routing the commander. I think two bodyguards is the way to go.


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