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-   -   Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"? (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=7944)

geoschmo December 4th, 2002 11:02 PM

Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
So here’s this idea I had for a one on one SEIV ladder/league. It grew out of the discussion about the tournament Ragnorok is talking about starting.

The idea is kind of like a perpetual tournament, or as I like it call it, “King of the Hill”. The idea is we get as many people as want to join up and divide them into brackets of 8. All the games are one on one and from a bracket of 8 players you end up with 1 winner. Then you pair up the winners of 4 separate brackets in one on one games to decide the first King of the Hill.

So you’re reading this and thinking, no big deal. It just sounds like a 32 player single elimination tournament. And if we stopped now, that’s exactly what you’d end up with. But we aren’t going to stop there. Because just like the King of the Hill game we all played as kids, you don’t just get to the top and sit. You have to defend your crown. You have to fight to stay KOTH.

But not against just anybody that happens along. Being KOTH has its privileges. You only have to face the cream of the crop that rises up from the bottom of the hill. You are The King after all. So all those other guys get to fight it out amongst themselves for the honor of facing you in one on one competition. If they win, they become the new King. And if you do, well long live the King. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

So here’s where things get interesting. Everybody else but the King that loses gets thrown into another bracket of 8, down at “the bottom of the hill”. Of course they don’t have to keep playing, they can always go home. But if they want to get to be KOTH they gotta join another bracket.

Players can play through as many brackets as it takes to get to KOTH, but they can only be in one bracket at a time of course. This type of setup could actually work for as few as 11 regular players, but it would work best I think for 24 or more. Otherwise the KOTH is sitting around on his throne for weeks at a time without being challenged.

So here’s an example of how it might work. Say we get 20 people to sign up. The first 16 would go in two brackets and start playing their way up the hill. The Last four would start a third bracket and wait for either four new people to join, or for four people to lose in the other two brackets that want another crack at the top. Once that bracket is full they start playing and another bracket starts. For that matter the brackets could start playing as soon as two people join, and just fill in as they go. The only stipulation would be if you lose a game you can't jump into an open spot in the same bracket You have to wait for a new bracket to form.

The winners of the first four brackets compete for the initial KOTH crown. While this is going on new brackets are forming all the time and new players, and old players that got knocked down are climbing back up. Hey, nobody said being King is easy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

After the original KOTH is crowned, things change a bit. From that point on there is always a KOTH sitting at the top. The winners of the next two brackets that finish play each other and the winner of that gets to play the KOTH. The KOTH has to accept the challenge of this player, but these are the only games he ever has to play to retain his title. He doesn’t have to play every schmo that comes along. The guys getting a shot at him will have earned the right by getting past 4 other guys in one on one combat. If the King doesn’t accept the challenge of a player that has rightfully earned his chance at the top then he abdicates and the challenger becomes the new KOTH.

So on and on it goes. As many players as want to play can play. Everybody will always either be KOTH, or playing a game, or waiting for a bracket to fill up. No need to really worry about seeding the brackets, they can just be filled as they go.

We’d need to come up with some rules about how frequent turns should be played, and whatnot. It would kind of suck to be stuck in a bracket waiting on some guys to finish their games that aren’t playing. And for that matter we could allow players to form their own brackets if they prefer. Get together with seven of your friends that you know are reliable and play each other to get to the KOTH. I am thinking that wouldn’t be too hard to work out. It should be fairly loose I think to keep it fun.

So, whatcha think?

[ March 13, 2003, 17:21: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

geoschmo December 4th, 2002 11:46 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Actually I thought about this some more and if you are filling brackets as you go you could allow players that lose to jump into open spots in the same bracket if you wanted. If you did this you could pull this thing off with an absolute minimum of 7 regular players.

Basically it would take five wins in a row to get the KOTH crown. Every loss would knock you to the bottom and you start over again.

Geoschmo

Suicide Junkie December 4th, 2002 11:53 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
This might work well in a turn blitz style too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Given a game turn limit of say 175, each bracket would finish in a week, and you'd have a continuous grinding warzone of a hill http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Ragnarok December 5th, 2002 12:05 AM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
I am liking this idea so far. Turn blitz would totally be interesting as you'd be changing spots all the time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I'd probably attempt to be KOTH. Key word, attempt. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Fyron December 5th, 2002 12:26 AM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Turn blitz would remove the skill factor and make the KOTH dependant upon luck.

Ragnarok December 5th, 2002 01:27 AM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Turn blitz would remove the skill factor and make the KOTH dependant upon luck.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Very true. It would be Blitz just with a ladder format and a KOTH.

geoschmo December 5th, 2002 01:49 AM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Turn Blitz is good in small doses, but I don't think it would be too good for something like this. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Stone Mill December 6th, 2002 02:35 AM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
I dig this idea. Kind of like having sanctioned "Belts." And I bet we could dig up plenty of Don King type promoters, too.

I just need to re-read your Posts and let it sink in. Sounds entertaining, though.

geoschmo December 6th, 2002 03:32 AM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Ok, I am going ahead with this. I was considering waiting till after Ragnorok got his tournament filled up cause I don't want to conflict with that. But since he's decided not to start till after the hoilidays and because this really is a different animal anyway being an ongoing ladder/league rather than a one time tournament I am going to go ahead and get it started.

I have revised the idea a bit after talking to some people. Reduced the brackets from 8 to 4. No it only takes 4 wins in a row to make it to King of the hill. I think this will give the mound a little more turnover. I don't want the King sitting around for weeks waiting on a contender. If anyone feels liek this would be too much, keep in mind you only have to play one game at a time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Anyway, I threw up a webpage with an idea fo the regulations. Check it out.

http://seiv.pbw.cc/koth.htm

Feel free to make any suggestions, and shoot me an email if you want to play. You can say something here too if you want, but the official entries are by email. Be sure you give me your PBW username in the email, that is how I will list you on the website.

I will make as many or as few brackets as we have people that want to play. The winners of the first two brackets that complete will compete for the first "King of the Hill" title.

Good luck all.

Geoschmo

[ December 06, 2002, 01:37: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Ragnarok December 6th, 2002 06:37 AM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
I'll say it here and send an email. Count me in! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Oh, and you don't have to worry about conflicting with the tourney I'm going to start. Nothing wrong with having both going. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Thermodyne December 6th, 2002 09:38 AM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
I'm in, might as well get pounded by some of the best players http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Fyron December 6th, 2002 11:02 AM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
What basic settings will these games have? (map size, starting planets, tech costs, etc.)

dogscoff December 6th, 2002 12:20 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
My suggestion: Keep a list of the complete history of Kings, saying who was king and for how long.

Maybe even create a current king "crown" icon that Kings can put in their sigs and avatars to show off, like a trophy.

geoschmo December 6th, 2002 01:53 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Fyron, check the Koth page, that has the answers you seek. K.O.T.H. Page

Dogscoff, awesome ideas. I will definetly want to do something like that.

Geoschmo

geoschmo December 6th, 2002 06:41 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Here ye, here ye! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Format has been revised. In keeping more with the King of the Hill theme, I have scrapped the brackets alltogether and we are left with just a hill. And the hill has levels. Levels Jerry! But no carpet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I like this cause you don't end up sitting around waiting for the other game in your bracket to finish before you can move on.

Already got 7 players, there is room for as many as want to join the league though. So come on.

http://seiv.pbw.cc/koth.htm

I also added a forum in the PBW forums just for the K.O.T.H. League.

Geoschmo

dogscoff December 6th, 2002 07:08 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
To expand on my previous suggestion, I think you should have a page which lists of all previous kings and the current king. Then have a set of downloadable crown images that a person can wear by putting them into his/ her sig, avatar or webpage. Anyone found wearing royal attire without having earned it will be abused, ridiculed and generally ostracised.

Crown 1: "I once was king". Silver Crown. Can be worn by anyone who appears on the list of previous kings.
Crown 2: "King of the hill". Gold Crown. Can be worn only by the current king.
Crown 3: "King of Kings". Little picture of Elvis. Can be worn only the person who currently holds the record for most consecutive games on the throne. Someone who is the curretn king and the king of kings gets an icon of Elvis wearing a gold crown... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

You could even go wild and award lesser royal titles to people who have never been king...

EDIT: I moved Elvis...

[ December 06, 2002, 17:15: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

tesco samoa December 8th, 2002 06:18 AM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
hey did i not join this ???

Or is this a different Tourny

geoschmo December 8th, 2002 06:22 AM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Tesco if you joined I missed it. This is not the tourney Ragnorak is setting up. This is a continual league, not really a tournament. If you want in send me an email and let me know.

Geoschmo

Cheeze December 8th, 2002 07:22 AM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Maybe there are different kings.

Cruiserweight - 2000pts
Heavyweight - 3000pts
Super-Heavyweight - 5000pts

Who knows? Maybe some divisions will have different kings, and some players perform worse or better with different types of empires.

Fyron December 8th, 2002 07:27 AM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
The number of racial points used shouldn't cause you to play worse than you normally would.

geoschmo December 8th, 2002 05:54 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Yeah, I think the extra complication is unneccesary. I have said I'd start a new hill for Pre-Gold if I get the demand for it. And I suppose people could want a "Team Hill", maybe with 2v2 or 3v3 team games. I really like one on one games though. It's a personal prefereance, not saying everybody has to share it of course. The games just go so quickly.

But I agree with Fyron I don't see a need for different crowns based on game settings. Regardless of the game settings everybody in the game is using the same settings so it shouldn't make a difference.

Geoschmo

geoschmo December 8th, 2002 08:56 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Ok, I have been playing around with the format on the league page. Trying to make it look sort of SEIV like, sort of PBW like. I also added some links to the games for each matchup in case you are curious what the progress of them is. Let me know what you think.

K.O.T.H. League page

[ December 08, 2002, 18:58: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

tesco samoa December 8th, 2002 09:42 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
how many planets at the start ?

Fyron December 8th, 2002 10:01 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Had you bothered to read the page, you would have seen this:

Quote:

All games in the K.O.T.H. league are one-on-one games of SEIV and are to be played on PBW. The default game settings for K.O.T.H. League games will be small midlife cluster, no A.I or neutral players, and everything else will be the default SEIV game settings. Any of these settings can be changed with the mutual consent of both players.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I suppose I could be the king of the hill. Count me in! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

spoon December 8th, 2002 10:39 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
What's the default Turn Duration, if one can't be agreed upon by the two players?

Also, you might save some time by making me KOTH now, instead of making me crush and humiliate otherwise friendly players.

-Spoon

Gandalph December 8th, 2002 10:50 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
The bravado of SE IV players never ceases to amaze me.

tesco samoa December 9th, 2002 12:00 AM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Default settings... Got it.
1 planet
2000 racial points
not so great planet start.

Baron Grazic December 9th, 2002 01:18 AM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
For all you people out there who, like myself, have missed out on the recent Tournments because you do not own Gold, good news.

Geoschmo is so kind, that he is going to have a Non-Gold (SE IV 1.49) K.O.T.H match up too.

To Apply follow the Same Rules but specify that you are a non-gold Space Empires player.

Web page - http://seiv.pbw.cc/koth149.htm

[ December 08, 2002, 23:34: Message edited by: Baron Grazic ]

Cheeze December 9th, 2002 04:18 AM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Fyron, that could be true, but perhaps some people play better when they can choose and use more varied racial traits and special technologies, where the choices might make other players pause or really develop much more slowly and in directions that don't aid them much. Some players may work better in 1 on 1 games, and others may play better when there are many players, using politics and allies to gain advantages.

I agree that the format is simple and allows for quick gameplay and resolution. As long as there is much rending and shrieking http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ December 09, 2002, 02:23: Message edited by: Cheeze ]

sparhawk December 9th, 2002 03:56 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Looking good, I'm in for this challange http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

count me in Geoschmo!!

sparhawk

1FSTCAT December 9th, 2002 04:49 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Oh yeah! I'm IN, baby, I'm IN....

--Ed

Stone Mill December 9th, 2002 05:08 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Oh what the heck... I fear I am getting into too many games already, but I can't resist this one.

I played KOTH as a kid and it just feels like a good time.

spoon December 9th, 2002 06:20 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by geoschmo:

I'll have to think about that one a bit. I don't want to complicate things too much. I kind of like the simplicity.

Geoschmo

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sounds like too much room for complaint/abuse. Players can always negotiate for the settings they want - most players will likely be amenable to suggested changes, anyway.

Though I do suggest that if you wish to minimize the impact of randomness in these games, that you disable ruins and events by default. (Though I suspect that minimizing randomness isn't a goal for these games...)

Another unrelated idea is to give the current King the ability to enforce whatever game settings he wants...

Finally - what is considered "default" for Turn Duration?

-Spoon

geoschmo December 9th, 2002 06:33 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
[quote]Originally posted by spoon:
Quote:

Finally - what is considered "default" for Turn Duration?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is something I have intentionally left alone. I think what most people will find, especially those with little one-on-one experience, is that the games go very fast. Simply by logging onto PBW once a day you can manage two turns a day. Since the turn should process once you upload a turn and then you can do another turn. Gandalph and I started on Saturday and we have already played 30 turns. I wouldn't expect everyone to be able to do that of course.

Another thing you will notice is that when you know the game is waiting on you and you alone, it tends to focus you and make you be more regular with the turns. In a ten or 15 player game the incentive to get your turn in quickly really isn't there because you will likely have to wait on a couple other people anyway.

As long as neither player has simply wandered off the speed of the games shouldn't be a tremendous problem. I don't think we need to mandate it. I would be happy saying the default is after Last player uploads and then just have a talk with anybody that appears to be abusing that.

Geoschmo

Fyron December 9th, 2002 10:07 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Cheeze:
Fyron, that could be true, but perhaps some people play better when they can choose and use more varied racial traits and special technologies, where the choices might make other players pause or really develop much more slowly and in directions that don't aid them much. Some players may work better in 1 on 1 games, and others may play better when there are many players, using politics and allies to gain advantages.

I agree that the format is simple and allows for quick gameplay and resolution. As long as there is much rending and shrieking http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If that is the case, they just need more practice in more varied environments. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

TerranC December 9th, 2002 11:04 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
OOOh, OOOh, I wanna join.

geoschmo December 9th, 2002 11:18 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Stone Mill:
Oh what the heck... I fear I am getting into too many games already, but I can't resist this one.

I played KOTH as a kid and it just feels like a good time.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Quote:

Originally posted by TerranC:
OOOh, OOOh, I wanna join.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Anybody that wants to join needs to send me an email with their PBW username.

Geoschmo

Ragnarok December 10th, 2002 12:33 AM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Gees Geo, you won quick. What turn did you make it to? Last turn I saw on the game was like 2.9. You guys must have started really close together. It makes me worry that if I win the game between me and Thermodyne that I have to face you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif But that's IF I win... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Thermodyne December 10th, 2002 01:23 AM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Who were you playing against Geo? How many turns did it go?

Don’t worry too much Ragnarok, everyone beats me in SE4 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Gandalph December 10th, 2002 01:43 AM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
It was me, it went 52 turns, we did start close, and he got bigger better ships before I did.

geoschmo December 10th, 2002 02:35 AM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Cheeze, that is a valid point. Perhaps I should institute some sort of system for choosing game settings where the players don't have to agree on everything. Maybe the other guy doesn't want 5000 racial points, but you do. As it is now you'd have to lump it because both players have to agree for a setting to be changed. But what if you could say force the racial point change, but in return he got to change another game setting of his choice of another game setting that you could not object too.

I'll have to think about that one a bit. I don't want to complicate things too much. I kind of like the simplicity.

Geoschmo

geoschmo December 10th, 2002 02:56 AM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Yeah, it seems like we went really fast and all cause we burned through the turns. We did like 15 today I think.

Gandalph is a good player. I got lucky.

Geoschmo

geoschmo December 10th, 2002 03:42 AM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Ok, I ave been playing around some with the idea of statistics. Check out the K.O.T.H. League Page and tell me what you think.

Geoschmo

Ragnarok December 10th, 2002 04:28 AM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Ok, I ave been playing around some with the idea of statistics. Check out the K.O.T.H. League Page and tell me what you think.

Geoschmo

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It looks good. I like it.

And speak of burning through turns. Last night me and Therm had to have done at least 15 if not more. At least I think, I don't know I can't really remember Last night much, stupid flu.

Thermodyne December 10th, 2002 06:45 AM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
22 turns on the 8th, and that was after a few start up problems. 12 so far today. Sorry to hear you are sick Rag’s, but that will make it even. I have the sore throat from hell, caught it moving this damn snow over the weekend.

Ragnarok December 10th, 2002 04:58 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
22 turns on the 8th, and that was after a few start up problems. 12 so far today. Sorry to hear you are sick Rag’s, but that will make it even. I have the sore throat from hell, caught it moving this damn snow over the weekend.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Man that sux. Sore throats are the worst. Hopefully this will be the only time I get sick for the winter. Normally I don't get sick that much so I'm hoping. But I hope you get to feeling better Therm. I woke up this morning and seem to be ok. Or at least not as bad as I was yesterday, so it must have been a 24 hour bug for me. Even though my mom had it for like a week.

dogscoff December 10th, 2002 05:52 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Quote:

I have the sore throat from hell, caught it moving this damn snow over the weekend.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My recipe for any and all winter illnesses. I'm currently administering this to my g/friend non-stop recently, as she is wrapped up in bed with all kinds of symptoms:

* Juice of one lemon
* 2 heaped teaspoons of honey
* Some brandy, rum or whisky
* Top up with boiling water
* Add sugar to taste.
You can also dissolve eucalyptus sore-throat sweets (ie lockets) in there for added kick.

A regular supply of this, combined with bedrest & lots of hot tea and spicy food (Madras recommended), will knock any cough/ cold/ sore throat/ flu on the head within a day or two.

Oh, and if you have a slight temperature try to avoid paracetamol/ aspirin. These will reduce your temperature, and a high temperature will kill the bugs making you ill. Obviously if it goes too high it will kill you too, but the bugs will kick the bucket long before you do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

geoschmo December 10th, 2002 06:19 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Brandy, honey, lemon, sugar, spicy food, wrapped up in bed with your girl friend. I don't know Dogscoff, sounds like a good prescription even if you don't have a cold. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

tesco samoa December 10th, 2002 06:49 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
girl friend eh ? think the wife will mind

geoschmo December 10th, 2002 08:45 PM

Re: Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?
 
Well, in my case the wife is my girlfriend, so I don't think she will. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif


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