Non national Thugs between Banelords and Tarts/Elemental Kings?
 

I am somewhat familiar with how to build a bane lord for effective PD raiding.

And although I haven't tested it too much, I think I have a good idea about how to set up a Tartarian or (at least some of) the Elemental Royalty as super combatants or at least heavy thugs.

But a PD raiding banelord doesn't really last long against more elite opposition and Tartarians and Elemental Royalty seem to be a bit more late game options.

What are some good options for non nation specific, cost effective thugs for use against elite troops, not necessarily taking on armies alone, but something that won't die in like two rounds if it runs into hydras, blessed giants or elite cavalry the way a bane lord raider will?

Chassis suggestions and gear suggestions would be appreciated, but I probably am also lacking an understanding of how to get a thug above the PD raiding level without spending a fortune.

I did read Baalz guide to thugging but it was perhaps above my level.

Re: Non national Thugs between Banelords and Tarts/Elemental Kings?
 

Level 1: Black Servant
Level 3: Sleeper
Level 4:
Level 5:
Level 6: Spectre, Most Ice Devils
Level 7: Wraith Lord (Immortal!), Ivy King, Some Arch Devils Father Illearth, Vampire Lord (Immortal!)
Level 8: Lichcraft (Immortal!), Some Heliophagi

The End-game Diversity mod expands not only late game summons bud mid-game thug summons as well. Check it out. It's becoming increasingly popular and as it gets more wear on it, more well-balanced.

If you're looking in blood, the best SC/Thugs IMO are the Ice devils since all of them come with greater than 20 basic protection and Cold Power which means you can slap a Robe of Shadows on them. They can also cast Quickness on themselves, so you can substitute Boots of the Messenger for Boots of Quickness giving you versatility in your miscellaneous slot. The more melee focused ones also have good weapon alternatives--one has a Hell Sword (Life Drain) and one has a Frost Brand. Nycafor has pokey hand thingies that you can't replace, but he's still decent. They are also terrifying underwater opponents especially considering how squishy most underwater stuff is and how fast/cheap you can get them. The Arch-devils are more well-suited to land adventures and are not generally as powerful. I tend to use the Heliophagi and Arch-devils as artillery and the Demon lords cannot use all the equipment slots so they tend to be used either for their special ability (Belphegor/Pazuzu), casters, or the dudes I use to cast "army" spells.

Re: Non national Thugs between Banelords and Tarts/Elemental Kings?
 

Wraithlords & Liches are expensive for thug use. Viable with Soul vortex in dominion, but a lot of gems to risk outside.

Spectres are fragile and expensive. But sneaky and ethereal, which means they can be good with the right randoms. Mostly they're good for magic diversity. If you wind up with ones with path combos you don't need, they're worth sending out.

Banelords are really among the best thugs. They can handle PD with minimal gear. With slightly better kit they should be able to stand up to most elites. You just have to tailor it to the targets. Vine Shield is good against any troops. Pick a Brand based on expected resistance or give them an AN weapon for heavy giants. They're immune to cold and poison, which means Neifel giants and Hydras lose a lot of effect. Flying is good for raiding or anti-buffing SC duty. Quickness boots might be better for elite troops. Luck & MR never hurt. Their starting armor is usually fine unless you need another resistance. Berserk if the hydra's fear is getting to them.

Re: Non national Thugs between Banelords and Tarts/Elemental Kings?
 

Gargoyles with Gift of Reason can be very good.
Pros: they fly, so you do not need flying boots, and they do not accumulate fatigue, so Boots of Quickness are perfect for them. They are also 100% resistant to poison, poor amphibian, have great strength, 80 hitpoints and good protection.

Cons: expensive (10E + 15N for GoR) compared to Bane Lords. Cannot regenerate. You need a mage with Earth 3 and Air 1 to summon them, and Nature 4 for GoR.

Re: Non national Thugs between Banelords and Tarts/Elemental Kings?
 

Sea Kings are expensive but good.

Re: Non national Thugs between Banelords and Tarts/Elemental Kings?
 

Who needs thugs for raiding PD? I've used EA Ermors top-tier mages for air raiding Abysia. Summoned thugs simply aren't worth the gems. Which would you rather use - ~30 gems in thug and minimal gear whose only purpose is raiding PD, or 7-21 gems for (1-3) starshine caps that have other excellent uses? (And that's just so you can teleport for those mages with F2S2D2 picks - if they can walk, leave the caps at home and its just gold, or 7a for flying boots).

Scout well, don't attack heavily defended targets without overwhelming strength, and make your opponent react to you.

Verji's list left off Golems, who are Constr 7 iirc, and strong thugs/weak SCs against the right opposition.

I like wraithlords because they don't need much gear. Hand them a lucky pendant and an AMA and they're pretty much good to go. Maybe through on boots (flying or quickness). Sure, you'd rather keep them in dominion, but if you've got good scouting they trounce PD no problem, and can always run away back to friendly dom.

Re: Non national Thugs between Banelords and Tarts/Elemental Kings?
 

Of course, Abysia's PD is one of the best for raiding with mages. Abysian PD gets slow troops and no range attacks, giving you plenty of time to cast. How would those Augurs do against anyone with PD archers?

I am curious how you script them for raiding though. I've never had a lot of success raiding with mages.

Re: Non national Thugs between Banelords and Tarts/Elemental Kings?
 

MA Caelum: Living Clouds, spells. Air Shield if there are archers in pd. Cheap, easy to retreat and regroup.

Re: Non national Thugs between Banelords and Tarts/Elemental Kings?
 

Thugs aren't only meant for raiding. They have other roles such as handling SC's, beating up other thugs, etc. They're often very useful just for putting out brush fires once your empire really starts getting big.