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- - MBT's (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45260)

This pairs up to the one I just posted on the APC thread but dealing with NATO MBTs as taught by the USA. Again should be useful in fact checking and again for developers etc. What I REALLY like about the three I've posted is the variant and user country listings on these. Yes I know these are older.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...in0535/ch1.htm

Regards,
Pat

A quick question as it's getting close to submitting my first list of recommendations of new equip. etc. for the game.
The MERKAVA 4 has a carry capacity of eight soldiers from several sources and one specifically states "in lieu of ammo supply" which makes sense. Would it, if it can even be done, be worth it to allow this carry capacity once all the ammo supply is used up? This would happen once the tank is down to it's final ten (Or eleven if you assume one loaded.) rounds which the "revolver" loader holds. A final push to the objective or falling back on defensive positions (Some might call this retreating, I like to think of it as "a reassessment of the tactical situation", yeah you're right retreating!) come to mind. The troops would enter/exit through the rear hatch that was designed for this purpose as well. The MERKAVA 4 is the only one of the type I can find that has this ability, which again makes sense since NAMER is a MERKAVA 4 without the turret.
Pics:
Attachment 10330 and Attachment 10331

Regards,
Pat

Pretty sure this & a Ukraine stretched tank used to be included in OOBs which could carry internal passengers. Either can or it cant though cant switch as ammo reduces & think the practice might have died out at least for the Merkerva. If I remember Hezbollah killed their first Merk with a shot in town fired through/at the rear hatch. Later Ambush with ATGMs also showed some problems but mainly flawed tactics tanks stood up pretty well to them still running despite side penetrations in many cases but proved none to healthy for passengers. Seem to remember if the blast did not get them the tanks fire suppresion system did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH (Post 754121)

The MERKAVA 4 has a carry capacity of eight soldiers from several sources and one specifically states "in lieu of ammo supply" which makes sense. Would it, if it can even be done, be worth it to allow this carry capacity once all the ammo supply is used up? This would happen once the tank is down to it's final ten (Or eleven if you assume one loaded.) rounds which the "revolver" loader holds.

I see one problem with that: how is ammunition stored?
Presumably it is not just strapped all over the place, or we would have seen more tanks blown up during the war.
It must be inside some sort of containers, which would still take up space even after the rounds inside are removed.
Of course those containers can be removed but how much time does it take? Is it something that can be done on the fly or does it take some time?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH (Post 754121)

The MERKAVA 4 is the only one of the type I can find that has this ability, which again makes sense since NAMER is a MERKAVA 4 without the turret.
Pat

From what I have read it does not. It shares components but it is not just a plain Merkava hull without turret.

Marcello as you said think its a pre planned tactic tanks start ammo light & act as transport more realisticly for a half squad. Ukraine if I remember was supposed to be able to carry a Mech Squad but very cramped shoe horned between fighting & engine compartment.
Game terms played with Merkerva modified that way & quite efficent having your own recce unit inboard.

I don't know how to use the quote "thingy" (Don't need to thanks!) so I'll just use my "memory stick".

To the MERKAVA 4:
1) Yes they do containerize the ammo for the reasons stated to minimize the affects of a hit in the prevention of cooking off the rest.

2) Of the 48 rounds carried again the auto loader "revolver" holds ten, one in the breech and one source I believe to be army-recognition.com seems to hint at some ammo stored in the turret. And it also explains the purpose of the "aft" (Had to slip in a NAVY term!) chains as shown in the troop unloading picture to cause premature detonation of incoming munitions that to me is pretty cool, Gotta love "KISS"!

3) GENERALLY speaking don't 8 personnel make up a squad in most armies? But the point being we are leaving out another weapon that is standard issue on this tank to justify it's use as a "heavy" APC (But not equipped with it in WinSPMBT.) the breech loaded turret mounted 60mm mortar that fires primarily HE rounds out to 2400m (Please see my earlier MERKAVA 40th Birthday post and references.) I understand the MERKAVA 4 carries 24 mortar rounds to include illumination rounds as well. So whether the picture depicted is a training situation or a combat one it's clear the tank is being used for that purpose. Anyone that has or is serving regardless of branch knows we always prepare for the real thing. When not training we ate, slept (A little!) trained some more and "field day-ed" and made the brass shiny for the BRASS. I just don't know if that role is practical for the game, but I find the possibilities interesting none the less. Given the resources you better believe I'm the type to use those options against my enemies.

NAMER
1) I stand corrected, I confused chassis for hull, and yes it does use several components of the MERKAVA 4 which it's design was derived from. Also they are both made at the same production facility but more on that in the APC thread later.

And finally THANK YOU (ALL) for your input, I find the process interesting and well worth the effort to communicate with in all honesty I think intelligent folks of varying backgrounds from different parts of the world. But please just don't get me started on that whole CM artillery thing again, OK!?!

Everyone have a good night and a better day!!
Regards,
Pat

Quote:

But please just don't get me started on that whole CM artillery thing again, OK!?

Dont know what you are talking about

On the mortar design decision I think due to 4 weapon slots as Merk carries several MGs like most of their APCs, big on supporting power for infantry.
Conjecture here not looked but the mortar was fitted originaly to the MK1 externaly then changed to external fire on later marks.
It is probably used with HE more for defending the imediate area round the tank possibly at range as an extra weapon vs ATGM teams. Otherwise ranged firing probably restricted to specialist shells beyound games capability like IR maybe even a Para Camera nowadays.
Upshot lets say it has 12-15 rounds of HE
Pros & Cons
Gains an extra splash damage weapon but has few shots vs the extra MG with lots of shots.
From a lethality point of view esp taking into acount its enviroment the MGs are the better bet due to ammo load.
Game wise these tanks are idealy suited to CS duties in open ground leading the advance they are a real pain in the ...
Pop smoke (multiple dischargers) suppress the infantry without recieving fire while theirs unloaded behind the smoke screen & only now go to check what the tanks missed.
Very very effective & going back to carrying troops if no APCs are available 2 tanks in the platoon could carry a squad between them they can scout for the units the tanks missed. The other thing they seemed to use this for was a heavy patrol, unload the infantry & let them go for a wander with the tank as backup if they found something.

If weapons slots are limited, I agree I'll take the MG's over the mortar. I assume ammo slots are limited as well? Concern here is for the LAHAT ATGM which the MERKAVA 4, M60T and ARJUN carry. Can I get a firm "slot" count for weapons and ammo types so as not to waste everyone's time (Including mine.) on these issues. Still think the "Heavy APC" option would be fun to have if there's room for it!?!
As this is leading to the "list" thing, I'm thinking of submitting it on a separate thread to cover all the main topics I'm dealing with. Will maintain the format as worked out last year. Also to save time can I "cut and paste" my sources from previous posts to the "list" with the reader still being able to link to the site for the article?
Thanks in advance!!
Getting a little sentimental, so here's a pic because there's nothing like coming home!
Attachment 10360

Have a good night!!
Regards,
Pat

Saw MERKAVA thread and saw your post that combining an MBT with infantry could confuse the AI.

It is quite simple.
There four weapon slots, therefore a max of four distinct weapons. The first weapon slot has four ammunition slots, HE/AP/Sabot/HEAT.
The other three weapon slots have only HE/AP.
The names don't have to be taken too much literally: Sabot can represent both arrowhead and actual discarding sabots rounds or simply different sabot types depending on the weapon stats.
And via a software trickery you can have AP rounds in the last three slots representing HEAT wrheads.
The max number of rounds that an ammo slot will hold is 255.
There is other stuff, such as being able to fire SAM at ground units etc. but the above is most of it.

It is somewhat limited, in that you have to fudge to represent non standard ammunition such as flechette or HESH, barrel fired ATGMs have to be treated as an extra weapon etc. but it has always been that way. It is sufficient to represent most of the tanks most of the time but nothing more, I suppose it was done for sake of memory/CPU/programming/budget/whatever back in the days.

I know this is on another thread but, since I posted on this as well here well you know...
The following site shows two videos from "Future Weapons" on Discovery Channel. The first one validates that the "Merk" from the beginning was designed for the role of carrying infantry on board and acting as an ambulance. I recognize this is secondary to crew survivability. The second video is well worth watching as as covers the updated capabilities of the "modernized" MK IV with it's new ammo round. Note Germany is fielding a new round similar to this on the latest version of the LEOPARD 2A7+ which is being done now as well. I'll have more on both for my first submission for the "Fall Campaign". Enjoy the videos, they're safe my computer didn't blow up!!
http://autos.kosmix.com/topic/Merkava

Regards,
Pat

Still searching for better interior shots.

Add on, in the second video note pan shot to rear compartment looks like "jump seats" along the interior hull. Also note load sequence could the ammo be stored between a inner and outer hull space? This would provide for crew protection similiar to submarine design with an outer hull than pressure hull (The people tank.) for protection. I agree from the other thread it'd be nice to hear from an IDF tanker.

Regards,
Pat

This first source does a nice overview table comparison between all MERKAVA mods. And does backup as several other sources "kevineduguay1's" info on the location of fuel storage and it's secondary purpose and it seems the same for the ammo storage containers that I believe are embedded into the interior wall which if we think about it makes sense because every source I've come across says the same thing about the design being driven by and for crew survivability so why impede the crews egress with open ammo storage? I'm sorry but I think that at least where the MERKAVA III and IV are concerned and for what it's worth, that these tanks are fully capable of carrying their full ammo load plus troops and or litters as many legitimate sites mention throughout their articles. This tank requires us to think outside the box a little (ME TOO!) it's the only modern MBT like this currently serving in the world with this design. So before some of you (Including my self!) have "CM ARTY :rolleyes::shock:" flashbacks here is that first ref.
http://id3486.securedata.net/fprado/...ite/Mekava.htm
The next one is from one of my regular tried and true sources please take note of the second vid at about the 2:50 mark it'll show an interior shot of loaded combat troops exiting during the combat training already in progress.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product.php?prodID=1602
And finally I promise :yield::faint:, how many times have we looked into equipment and because of some kind of design modification or other it's either increased or it seems in most cases decreased the ammo supply of that vehicle? Not one source I've found or posted has even hinted of that with this MBT. With that I'll say tonight or morning (Kind of both for me right now.) to you and have a wonderful day! HEY RG-41 anyone?

Regards,
Pat

Quote:

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH (Post 756293)

I agree from the other thread it'd be nice to hear from an IDF tanker.

Regards,
Pat

We had a guy posting as "Gingertanker" and I've sent him a PM but no reply so far. What is odd is that AFAIK he never brought this issue up and one would think it would have been one of the first things he would have mentioned when he was posting here.

Don

FASTBOAT,

Thank you.:)

I'm really thinking about doing a "CM ARTY" incoming salvo on this whole MERKAVA 3&4 (I'm really not fully convinced of this capability pre MERK 3.) issue with troop carrying capacity. I think because of my submarine background, I have no problem visualizing this concept. You think we're comfortable on a fast attack submarine where I slept with our food and walked on it in berthing for months at a time? You think because the the temp. was maintained at ... (sorry that's a no go.) a very comfortable level it's for crew comfort? After several weeks our manners go from "excuse me" to "get the ... outta of my way". I can pack for you guys (Drives my wife crazy sometimes.) EVERYTHING you'll need in a sea-bag to fit a six foot long (And I'm taller.) rack that's about six inches deep for 7-8 month's underway, and as a special bonus if your not qualified, it'll be three guys between two racks for the duration. You'd be utterly amazed at where and how we stow our equipment and supplies and maintain total silence in the water. And on our newest class of SSN (Virgina Class.) it's even worse in berthing they have a little more then two feet across to the next bunk can you imagine Battle-stations being manned in less then five minutes coming out of a dead sleep in that? We did it most everyday, sometimes several times a day, and my brothers still do it. Does anyone see or recognize the point I'm trying to make here? Let's review just a couple of points about the MERK 3&4.
1. More so w/MERK4 but 3 as well, they were designed around crew survivability.

2. Ammo is containerized and stored aft to the sides of the hatch to facilitate escape.

3. Fuel is stored between an inner and outer hull to protect against HEAT rounds and the like.

4. Conjecture on my part let's call it "visualization", knowing where the ammo is stored, after the eleven rounds are expended, does the gunner run aft to get more rounds one at a time in the heat of battle? I think not, just because we only had four torpedo tubes doesn't mean we only had four torpedo's. we had a system of racks and hydraulics to load more. Doesn't it make sense if they can store fuel between hulls that they can't load shells in the same manner to the ten round "revolver"?

5. Secrecy, I can understand it about the electronics etc., but why the rear compartment? Again conjecture, but maybe #4 above might not be too far off?

6. I've brought this up before and it's in the "Art of War" somewhere too, but, we have to think out of the box until recently we haven't fought in a truly urban in environment since WWII on a consistent basis. How about your own countries? Aren't we all playing catch up with our equipment to meet this current threat? Look at the net, how many of your countries land weapons programs have suffered because of this? And I'm not talking because of the economy either. Now think about the wars and conflicts Israel has been involved with since 1948, and please people I know this isn't all inclusive I'll give you the Sinai etc. but, the "body of the work" I think they're ahead of us in the "lessons learned" department to some extent.

7. See threads #60 - #62 above.

Finally troops in tanks they can do that I believe.

Respectfully Submitted to ALL with a good night!!
Pat

This will be one of about six MBTs I'll be making a push for this year. This tank has been misrepresented by type (Though even a nationally published Israeli paper identifies it's origin correctly.), been misnamed, I think under armored etc. and just needs a second look within the game. It has gone through a "zero mile" upgrade (A term used by several sources in describing other programs.) which means they've been completely stripped down to "parade rest" reworked and completely upgraded from the inside out. Again this and others will be submitted on "the list" from me within I hope a couple of weeks to a month. This first candidate owes it's modernized pedigree to a lesser extent from the IDFs SABRA but more so to the MERKAVA 3 (BAZ from some sources.) and MERKAVA 4 (Armor, FC and Tracks etc.).
The Turkish M-60T. The first article comes from one the first sources to report on the M-60T Israeli/Turkish joint effort.
http://defense-update.com/wp/2010090...m60t_debu.html as Turkey celebrates it's "Victory Day" earlier this month.
The next one has a nice overview of Turkish forces overall; but note the comments by the M-60A3 TTS and more importantly the one's by the M-60A1 RISE/Passive (Which might be another Turkish OOB issue for their M-60A1 tanks?) this source is backed up by others already presented in this thread.
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/ar...hp/t-2324.html

And since everyone loves a parade:party:here's a pic:
Attachment 10479
For further background on this thread concerning the M-60T please refer to PG.2 Posts #15 & #17, PG.3 Post #25 and
PG.6 Post #58.

Regards,
Pat
:capt: (Kind of reminds me partly of my "old" job.)

You wouldnt guess it was an M-60 would you.

It's too bad you weren't around a few years ago. One of our main playtesters had been a crew chief on a Boomer way back when( which, incidentally, was his callsign ).

Don

Pat,
Great info; I love reading your material. You always back it up with proven sources. Keep contributing!

Don OR Andy,

Any chances the Merk 4 will get major upgrades to it's current capabilities?

FASTBOAT,

The ammo loadouts for Merkava MkI and MkII with a full 8 man squad aboard was stated as 14 rounds. (Tanknet) The funny thing is that the ready rounds for those Mks is 6 on the floor of the turret basket. So if the back space is filled with infantry then the other 8 rounds in two 4 round containers are somewhere in the turret area.
The MkIII has a 5 round ready magazine that I think is mounted on the floor of the turret basket.
The 10 round Magazine of the MkIV is in the turret bussle. The bussle on the MkIV is larger than the other Mks. Not quite Abrams large but large.
Im starting to wonder how many rounds are stored in the turret bussle.

Here's a video from IMI of Israel of the M-60T MKI (2004) as it was going through initial developmental trials and testing for the Turkish Army in Israel. And it has some relaxing music as it's shooting at targets and ends the debate on the M-60A1 being the Turkish platform; though Turkey plans to update it's M-60A3 tanks to the M-60T standard as the ALTAY MBT program has been delayed for various reasons. The ALTAY is similar to S. Korea's (Partnered w/Turkey in the ALTAY program.) K2 MBT. First ALTAY prototypes for evaluation not expected until 2013 at present. It could be one of the last new tanks to make into the game before it "expires" in 2020.
Anyway for your viewing pleasure about 5 min. long.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC1dQ...eature=related

A short video of the M-60T I believe getting ready for the Victory Day Parade. Maybe you experts might see something useful in it's makeup as shown (Remember I do Subs!?!). < then 1 min. long.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU1vrUEoqgc&NR=1

Also research into this or other topics has lead to some natural "off shoots" such as the M-60A1 RISE/PASSIVE was the main MBT of the USMC until they recieved their M1 ABRAMS and served with the CORPS in Desert Storm. This is an end date issue in the game. Turkey actually got their M-60A1 MBT'S from the CORPS when the U.S. "donated" the tanks to them.

Hope your weekends are going well!! Mine's just starting!!

Regards,
Pat

At AAD 2010 being held @ Cape Town SA the question is being asked if the SADF might be seeking a new MBT, you decide, and I'll track this.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/aad_2..._mk_2_aad.html

Enjoy your weekends!

Regards,
Pat

For the purpose of my list of inputs for the next patch, are the USMC M60A1 RISE tanks meant to be the same as the
M60A1 RISE/PASSIVE tanks? The "PASSIVE" was a slightly later upgrade. The answer will possibly affect two other countries. For other folks that included myself, the M60A1 RISE was an engine improvement program similar to the current M1A1 TIGER engine improvement program. The PASSIVE part of the M60A1 RISE/PASSIVE added a "STARLIGHT" targeting system.

Pic: Attachment 10573
Source:
http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/pics/m60.html scroll down about four pictures to the one above with explanation.

Thanks in advance!
Regards,
Pat

Combined. The engine upgrade does nothing game wise

Don

I was looking into something else and came across this website (Again!) and started reading. This series of articles concerning India's MBT program just sounds so typical of what's happening everywhere in the weapons procurement area. We know the results as posted to this thread already about the duel in the desert between the ARJUN and T-90 (The T-72's though originally to also participate were withdrawn as you'll see why if you read the articles here posted and earlier on this thread.) and that the ARJUN is in further production also to include the MKII production to have moved up to next year vice 2012. Though posted on this site the author also wrote these for the Business Standard. I hope you find these worth reading, so here's a lessons learned on how not to run a weapons program.
1. http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/...trials-in.html

2. http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/...jun-tanks.html

3. http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/...armour-of.html

Bonus:
4. http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/...armour-of.html

5. http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/...sian-t-90.html
Please take note of the comparison chart at the top of the article it looks like they took the best of what's offered by what most people would consider the top five tanks in the world.

Very interesting at least to me anyway and in line with what most of my other resources have said as well concerning the "broader bigger picture" on this subject.

TAKE CARE!!

Regards,
Pat
Always watching, listening, reading and learning.

Well I stayed with the site as posted previous to this noting that some major international stuff is posted as well but, looking for more on ARJUN. These next three articles except for orders and upgrades, about close the loop on presenting the arms procurement cycle. If your following along then you'll appreciate the last article as it's "the icing on the cake" for the procurement process and typical to move onto "the next best thing." so good reading to you.

1. http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/...jun-tanks.html this marks the immediate move to the MKII and eventual back fit to all the MKI tanks as posted already to the thread.

2. http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/...c-day-for.html IMOD release on procuring an additional 124 ARJUN's. Based on the above article that should make the ARJUN MKII available by Jan. 2012.

3. http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/...rs-100000.html

I hope you enjoy the rest of your weekends as mine is just starting.

John if you reading per some of our earlier comments, "CINCLANT HOME" has declared this my "social network" so I have a little more freedom to carry on!

Regards,
Pat

Quote:

CINCLANT HOME

:)
Could be a keeper

John,
Just passed 24yrs. wouldn't trade her for even a Bugatti Veyron Super Sport, not for even two of them! As discussed will present VIRSS to simulate HITFIST. Still working on the "list" but things like the M60T issue has taken me down the M60 tank series "rabbit hole" and slowing the whole process up. Sometimes the "net" isn't all that helpful and just full of conjecture. As you might say I'll "muddle" through it and will make the call, present it and see what happens. Anyway back to it for a little longer.

Regards,
Pat

Quote:

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH (Post 760842)

I'll second Don on this.
From my own research while revising the USMC OOB I found the difference between the M60A1 RISE (1979) and the M60A1 RISE/Passive (ca. 1983) to be negligible in WinSPMBT terms. What I called the M60A1 RISE/ERA in my OOB revision (ca. 1988) is the upgrade to the M60A1 RISE due to the addition of the ERA system.
Not that Don needs me to second him :angel But I've found a second opinion does help verify what we already know.

This seems to be the best spot to to raise the following possible issue.

I have noticed that the Chinese ZTZ-99/Type 99 lags somewhat behind the times in-game, in terms of fire control and possibly ERA/APS. More specifically, I am talking about the ZTZ-99A1 and ZTZ-99A2.

Public sites such as sinodefence, army-technology or armyrecognition mention fire control improvements both for the A1 and A2. A1 is mentioned to possess some kind of ERA while A2 is mentioned to have an Active Protection System. What specialized sites like Jane's have to say about this, I do not now, I don't have a subscription.

Still,it stands out that a Fire Control value of 40 remains constant between ZTZ-99,ZTZ-99A1 and ZTZ-99A2. This is contrasted by the improvement of the armor scheme, as does the improvement of the main gun's penetration.

Would it be over-estimating the capabilities of the ZTZ-99A1 and A2 if I were to propose the standard FC improvement increment of 5 between eras? 45 for A1, 50 for A2?

Also, would ERA on A1 and A2 and an APS on A2 merit a good look, or is it just hype without base?

Game already
base & A1 already have 1 shot of VIRSS A2 gets 2
A2 already has advanced ERA

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoPlayer (Post 761650)

I wouldn't mind seeing such a change. As it is, the top Chinese MBTs are way too expensive and provide too little. IMO it would be better to either increase the capabilities/stats of them or decrease the price. I can't see how Chinese tanks can be so much more expensive than (I think) all their Western counterparts.

All tanks use the same cost calculator factors so walk through all the variables and you'll find the answer

Don

For your comments sorry for delay in transferring this.

First installment for the 2011 patch. If no end date is given assume 2020 for current game.
MBTs
Add:
A1. USA/JUN 2010/M1A1 SA/ED/RESET/As in the game. Mods needed per refs above existing M1A1 ABRAM levels. Improved electronics and sensors, improved armor against IEDs and mines and can be in theater upgraded with the urban TUSK pkg. Recommend base and mirror unit w/TUSK up armor pkg.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...a-tanks-02535/
http://www.army.mil/-news/2009/03/05...t-at-anniston/A2.
IRAQ/DEC 2010/M1A1 SA/As in the game. Mods needed per refs above existing M1A1 ABRAM levels. As above w/o the advanced ERA pkg. and BFT program.
Recommend base and mirror unit w/TUSK up armor pkg.
Please note these refs to include some bleed over info to both types.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...013/#more-5013
http://www.usf-iraq.com/?option=com_...684&Itemid=128
http://www.dapss.com/mpi-news/0709/0709C-iraq.htm
http://www.stripes.com/news/u-s-tank...i-army-1.89069
http://www.deagel.com/Main-Battle-Ta...000516002.aspxC1.

C1.Change: IRAQ/M1A1M to M1A1 SA per refs. above.

A3. USA/JAN 1977 – DEC 1986/M60A1 RISE Passive/C4/RB 105mm L51 M68 w/63 Rds, M240 7.62mm w/5.9 Rds & M85 12.7mm w/900 Rds.The USA developed the ERA packages late in the life of this tank but, never to be used them. The development of the M60A3, M60A3 TTS and the dawn of the M1 stopped this. The USMC actually got them from the USA stocks during Desert Shield prior to combat operations. RISE Passive was the pinnacle of the M60A1 MBT.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ound/m60a1.htm
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/cv/tank/M60.html
Post #73.
Pics:

A4. TURKEY/JUN 1991 or JAN 1994/M60A1 RISE Passive/As in the game. Mods needed per refs above existing M60A1 RISE Passive levels, with ERA. These are the USMC tanks that were donated to Turkey. The confusion in the dates comes from the net, I found a document that I couldn't recover that showed Congress did not approve the release of the more advanced M60 series tanks for export until 1993. I will attempt to recover this if possible, for now, I can only say I saw it. I feel the JAN 1994 date is best for all foreign M60 advanced tanks (M60A1 RISE Passive and M60A3 TTS). From what I can tell Turkey is the only country to have recieved the M60A1 RISE Passive tank, all other U.S. serviceable units were upgraded to the M60A3 & TTS versions when these became available to the USA. NOTE: ALL M60 series tanks are still in service with the Turkish army. If not change of end dates are required to 2020. See M60T below refs to support this if needed.
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/ar...hp/t-2324.html
http://www.turkishworld.multiservers.com/equipment.html
http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/...e_Turkish_Army

C2. Change: USA (If added.) , USMC & TURKISH (If added.)/M60A1 RISE to M60A1 RISE Passive or just M60A1 Passive based on Posts #73 and #74 to avoid confusion and identify the most important mod to the M60A1.

A5. CANADA/NOV 2010/LEOPARD 2A4M CAN/RESET/As in the game. Mods needed per refs above existing LEOPARD 2A4 levels.
The improvements are primarily in all around armor protection against IEDs and mines. And some sensor upgrades. Don't know but is the thermal site on the turret pictured below on the frontal view new as well?
http://www.kmweg.de/2922-YWt0X3BhZ2U...ws_detail.html
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/18620/
http://www.janes.com/news/defence/id...1018_1_n.shtml
http://communities.canada.com/ottawa...ghanistan.aspxPics:

A6. GERMANY/JAN 2011/LEOPARD 2A7+/As in the game. Mods needed per refs above existing LEOPARD 2A6 levels. The improvements are primarily in all around armor protection against IEDs and mines, sensors, remote operated secondary weapons station and munitions.
http://www.kmweg.de/21874-bD1lbg-~PR...opard_pso.html
http://www.kmweg.de/2922-YWt0X3BhZ2U...ws_detail.htmlA more detailed account use page advance for both above. Note links to left for LEOPARD 2A4M CAN and DINGO 2 purchase for later post. Also German LEOPARD 2A6 tanks will be RESET to this standard during major depot maintenance. Also provides update to countries such as Netherlands having updated all their A5's to A6 levels.
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/leo2.htm A very good site I believe from someone who is a member of our forum. Also addresses upgrades of these tanks i.e. 2A4 to 2A5 from other countries, has this issue (For the longer term.) been looked into for the game?
Post #60 Should provide a working basis for the German multi-purpose munition as well off those videos. The video on the left if I remember goes into more detail on the IDF APAM-T M1171 round.
Pic:

A7. INDIA/JAN 2012/ARJUN MK II/As in the game with LAHAT. Mods needed per refs above existing ARJUN levels. Will have LAHAT ATGM, added two tons of additional armor of a hybrid ceramic type also will add next gen ERA to the turret, auto loader and improved sensors and electronics.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...984/#more-4984
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Sec...4101274452185/
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-F...rmy-Orbat.html Official Army website, might be of some interest though it looks like it hasn't been updated in several months.

M1. Mod: INDIA/MAY 2009/ARJUN MK1/As in the game with LAHAT and date change as indicated. Mods needed per refs above existing ARJUN levels. Of LAHAT and date change there is no doubt, however as I stated in my "mission statement" I'm no expert in converting raw data into game data and just have to rely on my instincts of what I'm reading. With that in mind, I believe the ARJUN might deserve another look based upon the above refs and previous posts provided below. TI/GSR looks good at 40, just not sure of armor or FC based on the refs and the way it outperformed the T-90S in every category. When I read that the armor is similar to the venerable Challenger 2, the wheels start turning in a novice like me. NOTE: All ARJUN MK1 tanks will be upgraded to the MKII standard during major depot maintenance and I would not think much before mid to late 2013 as the current order of the 124 MK11 tanks starts winding down, will track this.
Posts: #9, #19, #36, #75 and #76 some bleed over (#75L) for MKII as well.

M2. Mod: TURKEY/JAN 2007 - DEC 2009/M60T/RESET/As in the game with 60mm mortar 15 to 25 RDs and date change as indicated. Net conflicts here based on rounds carried on MERKAVA 4 and SABRA. They are for all tanks here internally mounted and tied into both sensor and FC for suppression (or elimination ) of ATGM teams, snipers and infantry.
TURKEY/JAN 2010/M60T/RESET/As in the game with LAHAT 6 - 10 RDs and date change as indicated. Mods needed per refs above existing M60A3 IMI ST levels as currently named in the game. Though the TI/GSR is less then the MERKAVA 4 but supposedly has the same FC unit installed is of a lesser issue than I believe it's armor ICON defense numbers. Most of these references presented or already posted refer back to having many of the systems of the MERKAVA 4 installed such as FC, sensor and other electronic upgrades, weapons and armor (My focus is on the frontal turret and hull area.). The source will illustrate this reasonably well, it's the IMI press release on delivery of the last M60T to Turkeys MOD. Please the note the close up shot of the M60T, that armor looks the same as on the MERKAVA 4. I just feel it deserves another look is all. LAHAT again net conjecture go low or go mid would be my guess high might be advertising.
http://www.imi-israel.com/vault/docu...d%20m-60a1.pdf
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/ar...hp/t-2324.html
Posts: #15, #17, #25, #66 and #71.

C3. Change: TURKEY/M60A3 IMI ST to M60T per refs and posts above.

C4. Change: TURKEY/End Date to JUN 2009/M60A1/ As in the game. Mods needed per refs above for M60T. I feel this a good approximate time that the last of the Turkish M60A1 tanks would have had to start the RESET process to the M60T.

C5. Change: TURKEY/End Dates to DEC 2020 as needed./M60 series/ As in the game. Mods needed per A4, M2 and C3 their refs above if not already done.

M3. Mod: TURKEY/JUN 2008 - DEC 2020./LEOPARD A1T and A4T UPGRADE/As in the game. Mods needed per refs above LEOPARD A1T & A4.
Rough guess on the start field date, upgrade was completed in NOV 2009. I've also seen some blog information to suggust the A1T recieved some armor upgrades as well, it makes sense considering the investment in this system, however unless I missed it I can't provide you with anything concrete. Your call on the armor.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...59&c=EUR&s=LAN
http://www.ssm.gov.tr/home/projects/...d1A1A1A4T.aspx
http://www.aselsan.com.tr/urun.asp?urun_id=79&lang=en

C6. Change: TURKEY/ End Dates to DEC 2020 as needed./LEOPARD series up to and including A4T/As in the game. Mods needed per refs above LEOPARD A1T. The LEOPARD A1 T is the first version purchased by Turkey and just completed a major overhaul of it's FC and associated systems in NOV 2009.
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/ar...hp/t-2324.html
http://www.turkishworld.multiservers.com/equipment.html

M4. Mod: Israel/2010/MERKAVA 4b/As in the game with TROPHY system 6-10 shots. Mods needed per refs above MERKAVA 4b . These sources would lead you to believe it has an even newer version of hybrid armor. This is one reason I didn't also use the armor request for the M60T to be compared to the 4b. What's not in doubt is that the first IDF Battalion to operate with the improved MERKAVA did so about two weeks ago with the TROPHY system installed. TROPHY shots again net conjecture go low or go mid would be my guess high might be advertising. This close in protection system might be hard to model in the game but, have brought this up with John (Imp) and thought that VIRSS as the game uses it might be a short term solution to getting it in the game. The troop carrying issue well that's been discussed to infinitive but, I guess the only option you is a heavy apc. My feeling carry 6 so more ammo is available. Your call.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/merkava4/
http://www.defense-update.com/newsca...kava.html#more
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/18649/ MERKAVA 4 w/TROPHY exercise.
http://www.eurosatory.mod.gov.il/merkava.htm#topPage
http://www.janes.com/events/exhibiti...aks-cove.shtml
Posts: #45, #60 (With video fm "Future Weapons show.), #61, #62 and #65. Troop issue #52 and #56. Pics:

C7. Change: TURKEY/2012 to 2015/BLACK PANTHER to ALTAY/As in the game. Many of the refs for the M60T make mention of some of the issues and delays in the ALTAY MBT program. Best estimates are that the ALTAY prototypes will be ready by 2013 and barring any major teething problems fielded by 2015. Picture is good as compared to current 3D renderings on the net for the ALTAY.

C8. Change: USA/Dates as follows for all types of Sheridan's/As in the game. Mods of dates needed per refs for SHERIDAN all types.
A. M551/JAN 1968 to JAN 1977/ Base model.
B. M551 TWO BOX (M551 CS in the game.)/JAN 1969 - JAN 1977/Modified for operations in Vietnam. Kit installed for turret and weapons stabilization after removing missile components (Except pwr. sup. & rate sensor.) w/no missiles. These modifications allowed for the increase of 152mm FLECETTE rounds and MG ammo stowage. This end date (Otherwise 1975 your choice.) allows for 2yr. overlap in conversion to;
C. M551A1/JAN 1975 - DEC 1988/This added the ANVVG-1 LRF (Some indicate ANNVG-1 LFR.) For info and clarification before I move on you need to know the following: In FY 1980 The SHERIDAN was phased out by the regular ARMY. In FEB 1984 the Arkansas NG retires the SHERIDAN, it would be the only NG unit to have used them. However the 82nd AB Div. (AIRBORNE, ALL THE WAY!! for those who served.) convinced the ARMY to keep them which they did.
D. ADD/M551A1 TTS/JAN 1989 - JULY 1997/UPGRADED with the ANVSG-2B TTS (Some indicate ANNSG-2B TTS.) These tanks again saw combat in Panama and Desert Storm with a better combat reputation then it had in Vietnam with the 3-73 Armor Batt. of the 82nd AB Div., in JULY 1997 they were finally retired to be used at NTC CA.
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/cv/tank/M551.html
http://www.82armor.com/82nd_armor.htm This source was leaned on more because I'll go with the men and woman who've served and used the actual gear every time if the info can be corroborated with others.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ound/m60a3.htm Same system as on M551A1 TTS.
Post: #7

D1. DELETE: TURKEY/M1A2T FNSS/Due to political reasons this was DOA. Current ref. shows who has what in the ABRAMS foreign market.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/abrams/

D2. DELETE: TURKEY/T-84 YATAGAN/Though it was one of four tanks tendered, Turkey went with the LEOPARD 2A4. The YATAGAN has only been exported to one country, Pakistan.
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t84.htm
TRANSFER (?) to Pakistan, I'm a little tired right now but went back to check and didn't see it there unless I just forgot the Pakistani name for it.

D3. DELETE: INDIA/MBT-EX KARNA/Meant for export but DOA when ARJUN was delayed.
http://frontierindia.net/tank-ex-ideal-t-72-upgrades
I think this might be the worst of it, I hope! If again any additional info is needed please again ask by the numbers. All seems in order and I really hate rabbit holes now!?!

Regards,
Pat

Good Morning!
I like to keep my refs handy in my "favorites" it's easy for me to hold them, get them, paste them and when finished delete them. So here's a couple of news items I've been holding until after I got my first patch page for 6.0 (?) posted. Now it's time to filter out more in preps for the next post.
1. With the cooperation between Israel and Turkey having gone so well until a few months ago, it was thought that Turkey would be the first country to benefit from the export of the MERKAVA and possibly the TIGER APC. It might've offered Turkey a cheaper alternative to pursuing the ALTAY program (The first test prototypes are not expected until 2013.) but things have chilled after the GAZA resupply incidents this past summer in which at one eight Turkish citizens were killed by Israeli forces. Also earlier this week Turkey removed from their "Red Book" several countries not friendly to Israel such as Syria further straining relations. Now it seems Columbia is now mentioned as a front runner, only time will tell.
http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/glob...did=1000598168
The Red Book issue:
http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/695/
But maybe perception isn't reality, you be the judge.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4577398

2. Ukraine to upgrade Peru's T-55 tanks, welcome the TIFON-2.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/18826/
Pics;
Attachment 10637 Attachment 10638
Attachment 10639

Don't want to be timed out!!
Regards,
Pat

The M551 SHERIDAN has come up many times in this thread and elsewhere. It was the last light tank to serve the U.S., though the need was expressed by the Army in particular the Airborne who didn't want to lose the close support option they offered. There were three contenders I'm just going to use one source which is good enough for this purpose. All were killed due to cost, delays and at the time political considerations. One got all the glory (I remember hearing quite a bit about it even in the national news at the time.) because it was so technically advanced, the second would provide the gun & mount for the MGS and the last would be the only one to see the light of day but not with the U.S. and is still in service today in an upgraded version, it's also in WinSPMBT in both versions.
1. For the Glory the M8 BUFORD:
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/m8_buford.htm
Pic: Attachment 10640

2. The Contributor the EXPEDITIONARY (Also very advanced.):
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/...onary_tank.htm
Pic: Attachment 10641

3. The Protector the STINGRAY:http://www.military-today.com/tanks/...light_tank.htm
Pics: Attachment 10642 it's offspring:
Attachment 10643 and Attachment 10644

Take care all and good night!
Regards,
Pat

Boy those pics of the TIFON-2 (T55M8A2 TYPHOON.) well let's just say "stunk to all high heaven" these should be better with a little more info as well on the tank. I guess everyone is worrying about "keeping up with the Jones" in this case Venezuela who just recently completed another arms deal with Russia to include the T90S supposedly. They also are in line to get the S-300 systems that were destined to go to Iran until Russia called off the deal to comply with the recent UN sanction's.
http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/t55_tifon2.php
Pics:
Attachment 10645 Does someone recognise the IFV in the background?
Attachment 10646

Have great day! Got to get ready to make a buck or two!
Regards,
Pat

1) first, assume the tank being photographed to be at the manufacturer's plant. Therefore the APC is one of theirs, too.

2) Then a quick click on the various APC links on the web site you quoted, and the "BTR-4" linky seems to be the beast in question.

looks like another proposal looking for sales - since it is not something I recognise as being in service anywhere, nor does the manufacturers site mention any customer.

Cheers
Andy

Info here for comments as desired, these were just posted for submission for the next patch.
MBT- yes I found one more from my notes from the beginning of the year. For continuities sake in the MBT section will continue "number" system where left off.
A8. UKRAINE/JUN 2010/OPLOT-M/ADD 9K119M REFLEX (NATO Des. AT-11 SNIPER-B #Missiles UKN/As in the game. Mods needed per refs above existing OPLOT levels. I'm allowing a one year delay in the fielding date to avoid duplication in these tanks w/o Zaslon and with it now to save a slot unless you have room for both. This tank is slowly coming off the production lines but is a major improvement defensively to all other Ukrainian tanks. It features a new third generation ERA known as Nosh-2 which is equal to the current Russian Kontakt 5 ERA and some claim superior to it, plus side skirt protection was added. Also it has the Shtora countermeasure system and it was fitted with the Zaslon APSystem as well. Also it has improved sites, FC and situational awareness.
http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/articl...hp?forumID=608 They know tanks they built them for the Soviet Union.
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/oplot_m.htm
http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/t84armament.php Please use the links, though based on the original OPLOT they are helpful especially about the stats on the 125mm KBA3 SB main gun.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3009.html The Shtora-1.
http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-...m-Ukraine.html
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3705.htmlAs currently on Ukraine’s T-84 and T-84 YATGAN. Notice no mention of the OPLOT (Lower left.) which was available when the YATAGAN was produced, the logical conclusion is the OPLOT must have Nosh-2 system or it just could be an omission for the base Nosh system.
http://www.milparade.com/digest.php?...fnum=95&lang=1 A Russian source a short note 3/4 of the page down. Seems to say the Ukrainians "borrowed" the base system of the time and further developed it.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3706.html More on Zaslon.
Pics: I guess they don't copy over sorry, already deleted off my computer see PATCH POST.

M5. Mod: POLAND & MALAYSIA/PT-91 TWARDY UNITS 009, 010 & 018 & PT-91M PENDEKAR UNIT 500/As in the game. Mods needed per refs above existing PT-91 & PT-91M levels./Intentionally looked liked Malaysia was missing the base PT-91 TWARDY but after many nights of research and in dealing with other related issues to Malaysia I'm now satisfied that the PT-91M is it's only MBT to date. The army-guide.com contract section is a great tool, though it caused some confusion as noted below. Have seen no data on Polish Units 009 & 010 however, based on the refs it seems that Poland’s Unit 018 and Malaysia's Unit 500 are under protected based on info concerning the ERA pkgs on both. Other issues are quick noted in the below refs also concerning the improved PT-91M. However through some reading between the lines it became apparent to me not to add the PT-91 to Malaysia though at the same time I feel they have more (~110 from many sources.) PT-91M MBT's then shown by some refs.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/contracts.php Enter country from menu note for Malaysia it shows both versions contracted for, this started the "ball of confusion" as MANY sites supported that info. Add the PT-91 & PT-91M totals and I believe the number of tanks was 106.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product179.html For PT-91 TWARDY
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3431.html Please note Para 7 about the main gun as it might affect the PT-91M PENDEKAR as it's in the game for Malaysia as UNIT 500.
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/pt91_twardy.htm Please note Para 2 and the bottom of the ref in the variant section covering the PENDEKAR.

C9. Change: MALAYSIA/UNIT 500/PT-91M to PT-91M PENDEKAR.

Regards,
Pat

Well as I see it now we are down to the following as probably the last brand new designed tanks that will get into the game and I am willing to list them in the order they'll likely to appear in the real world and ours.
1. Japan the TK-X or TYPE-10 is ready to go. With the economic situation this tank was put on the back burner. Now thanks to N. Korea and the growing influence of China, it'll probably get into production within the next couple of years or sooner. Also Japan is seeking much closer ties with S. Korea and Australia which is now seen as a key defensive partner in the region.
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/tk_x.htm
Pic:Attachment 10706

2. Turkey the ALTAY which I've posted on in conjunction with the M60T. Sources say it's still on track for prototypes by 2015 and fielding by mid 2016.
http://www.army-technology.com/proje...ainbattletank/
Pic:Attachment 10707

3. India The FMBT is due in 2020. India has been very active in regards to weapons development and procurement (AKASH, ARJUN MKI and MKII etc.) logically you would think due to it's neighbor to the west and the issue with Kashmir. But that would be wrong to some degree, they're looking north to China as well. They've built just recently two more air bases in the north and are looking to build more. The ARJUN MKII is meant to counter an armored threat from there as well until the FMBT comes on line.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/20291/ It's not much.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/ The BROADSWORD homepage an excellent source for Indian military and international affairs.
Pic:Attachment 10708 Obviously an ARJUN pictured but the write up indicates some of the technology to be used with the
ARJUN MKII and FMBT.
Attachment 10709

Regards,
Pat

Eh, I thought the Turkey-Korea future MBT was recently cancelled...

That "FMBT" sure looks like the old "Black Eagle"

Don

I agree ALTAY was in jeopardy at one time. When relations were on a much better footing with Israel before the start of the
M60T program and others, Israel even then saw a partner in an unfriendly neighborhood that politically would as act as an influence in the relations between Israel with Syria and to some extent Iran. This cooperation had made Turkey the leading country to receive the MERKAVA 4 with that tank why move on with the ALTAY? It would've been the cheaper alternative vs. taking a tank off the drawing board. There were of course other political factors in play as well (As Turkey announced they were going forward with ALTAY early last Spring.) and the MERKAVA deal was DOA before the events of this past summer which made the international news when 8 Turks were killed by IDF forces which further eroded relations between the two nations. All this has been already reported on in this thread. So the bottom line Columbia is now the leading candidate for the export version of the MERKAVA 4 and Turkey is moving ahead with the ALTAY. And Israel and Turkey are trying to "mead fences" at this time.

I thought the FMBT looked somewhat familiar, but I think two factors are in play as a generalization in design:
1. What do we base the new design on and make it ours?
2. How often will the design change due to political and military realities before we even see the final prototype design?

Back slooowwwlly to the final list.

Regards,
Pat

I did some further check, I was wrong. The ALTAY is still alive as a program.

As a Mod (M4) I addressed in the first "patch post page", the trophy system is one step closer to be fitted on all MERKAVA 4 tanks, though it is already installed on many as this article and others I've posted have indicated. What I found interesting and don't recall having seen before mentioned, is that the culprit that caused the IDF tank losses in 2006 is also mentioned in this article and it wasn't by RPGs as suspected by some. Sorry you'll just have to read it though it's about 3/4 of the way down.
http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/...38694681e25619

Canada to get 40mm GL's and get all the Dutch LEO 4 tanks just purchased (100) by Rheinmetall to the LEO 2A4M CAN standard. An issue I've had to re-address again.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/20708/

Have presents to wrap have a good night...well morning!

Regards,
Pat

Eh, I thought it was well known that the losses were due to the Kornet atgm which magically appeared outside of Syria.

IDF announces successful training deployment of the TROPHY system.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/20742/

Regards,
Pat

Well I've been talking about TROPHY for awhile and now the IDF is fielding it along the border after HAMAS successfully fired a KORNET (AT-14) at a MERKAVA 4 on the border earlier this month.
This was on my first "patch post" as a mod to the MERKAVA 4. I'll be posting my "economy subscription" version of the article from my ref.
http://www.janes.com/news/defence/la...1229_1_n.shtml
I hope everyone has a Happy New Year!!!!

Regards,
Pat

Just a little tank news:

1. ARJUN MKII ready for trials in June.
http://www.army-technology.com/news/news107583.html

2. LEO 2 A4M CAN deployed note gun definitely looks like the
120mm L44.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/21760/

Regards,
Pat

This is the raw data only as submitted from the last patch post I submitted. It's been my policy to repost these into their "home" threads for comment or not.

MBT's AGAIN!?!Don might have to rethink the MBT Item A6: CANADA/NOV 2010/LEOPARD 2A4M/RESET/Came across this article on 6 DEC 2010. The Leopard 2A6M tanks Canada leased from Germany are being returned (Now) after all. This might change the complexion of the Q&A discussions we had concerning this issue. This was on the first patch page submitted.
http://www.army-technology.com/news/news102921.html The last line says it all where things are headed, but that's for next year I would think.
UPDATE ALERT 12/07/10! I went back to the Canadian source I put in Post #21 of this thread. But I also want to draw your attention to Post #22. Here are the two points gleamed from this source.
1. Keep the LEOPARD 2A6M: 40 of the 100 Dutch tanks will be RESET to this standard therefore the return to Germany of the 2A6M tanks is a wash. 20-40 will be upgraded to 2A4M standard above what they got from the Germans. The rest will fall into utility conversions.
2. Might have to reconsider adding the 2A4M as it does have the 120mm SB L44 vice the L55 gun as I thought in Post#22. So we're left with a LEO 2A4M with the protection level of a LEO 2A6M with an improved 120mm L44 main gun.
http://casr.ca/doc-news-kmw-leopard-2a4m.htm
Para 1 will also link you to the Dutch tank deal within the site if desired.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-canada-03208/

C10. Change: UKRAINE/OPLOT/UNITS 061-063/Add 9K119M REFLEX
(NATO Des. AT-11 SNIPER-B) 6 Missiles. Noticed from refs that ATGW load has no affect on conventional ammo loads from refs. Must be due to size that addition of these doesn’t take up that much room as compared to conventional rounds. Am under the impression from further looking into other countries platforms this is just about a "universal truth" across the board.
http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/t84armament.php
http://www.pmulcahy.com/tanks/ukrainian_tanks.html
See bottom of the page. And yes I saw the number if it is 100% correct, however six works as that's what's in the game now for the T-84 tanks as well. Changing the number to 5 missiles would not only affect the Ukrainian tanks but would spill over to Russian ones (T-80 and T-90 series.) as well and any one who uses them outside the Ukraine and Russia that has the ATGW. I say Das Vydonia to a couple of rolls of toilet paper and keep the six packs instead!

Regards,
Pat