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-   -   Updates in light of Ukraine war (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=52845)

FOARP March 21st, 2022 05:18 AM

Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Some things presently in the game fairly obviously need updating in light of the war in Ukraine:

- Ukrainian OOB, add Javelins, NLAWs, Panzerfausts, Stingers, Starstreak.

- Active protection systems (e.g., Shtora) DO NOT WORK, or at least there are no reports of any of them stopping even a single Stugna-P, Javelin, or other anti-tank weapon. Why this is is hard to say - could be poor Russian maintenance but Ukrainian tanks also seem to be suffering the same thing.

- ERA is also a lot less effective in reality than it is in this game, at least not against tandem warheads or top-attack weapons.

- In reality T-72s, T80s, and T90s appear much more vulnerable than they do in this game. Of course there is selection bias in the videos that you can find online, but there is little evidence that the armour of these tanks is very effective against even close-range auto-cannon fire (cf a Ukrainian BTR-4 taking out a Russian T72B3M from the side with its 30mm cannon in Mariupol).

Aeraaa March 21st, 2022 05:37 AM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Oh geez, not again...

Mobhack March 21st, 2022 12:10 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Definitely someone who hasn't bothered in the slightest to actually read the board posts since the invasion of UKR started...

DRG March 21st, 2022 03:34 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
YES.... we have been paying attention to current events:doh: and there has been ongoing adjustments made starting the day after the Russians crossed the border.

What source claimed the 30mm kill ?? I want to know just what "taking out" means in that event..... did the tank burn and explode or did the crew bug out?

There is a LOT of BS flowing from both sides ......don't add to it

DO YOU MEAN THIS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt06PvmqD7Q

If yes it claims " damage " but that tells us nothing about the actual "Damage"


And here's a PRIME example of the BS flowing like water

https://www.businessinsider.com/vide...ariupol-2022-3

Quote:

The video appears to show a Ukrainian armored personal carrier damaging a Russian tank and destroying another.
The "other" was not a "tank" ( MISINFORMATION] but it does go on to say

Quote:

...shows a Ukrainian BTR-4 damaging a Russian T-72B3M tank and destroying a BRM-1K armored vehicle

which is a LONG way from taking out a B3M from the side and as sure as the sun rises that 30mm autocannon on the BTR-4 can chew up a BRM-1K

vyrago March 22nd, 2022 03:15 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mobhack (Post 851907)
Definitely someone who hasn't bothered in the slightest to actually read the board posts since the invasion of UKR started...

his account looks relatively new, its not like you're getting a ton if visitors here anyways. Maybe give him a break?

I'm seeing a real noticeable gatekeeping/toxicity here from the old guard towards people asking about updates, add-ons, features etc.

vyrago March 22nd, 2022 03:25 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FOARP (Post 851902)
Some things presently in the game fairly obviously need updating in light of the war in Ukraine:

- Ukrainian OOB, add Javelins, NLAWs, Panzerfausts, Stingers, Starstreak.

- Active protection systems (e.g., Shtora) DO NOT WORK, or at least there are no reports of any of them stopping even a single Stugna-P, Javelin, or other anti-tank weapon. Why this is is hard to say - could be poor Russian maintenance but Ukrainian tanks also seem to be suffering the same thing.

- ERA is also a lot less effective in reality than it is in this game, at least not against tandem warheads or top-attack weapons.

- In reality T-72s, T80s, and T90s appear much more vulnerable than they do in this game. Of course there is selection bias in the videos that you can find online, but there is little evidence that the armour of these tanks is very effective against even close-range auto-cannon fire (cf a Ukrainian BTR-4 taking out a Russian T72B3M from the side with its 30mm cannon in Mariupol).


I agree with you! to each of your points.

- I have not seen one totally verifiable video or photo evidence of active protection working. You would think that after nearly a month, there would have been something. In short: active protection might need a nerf.

- ERA a tricky. I have seen two videos of frontal hits on T-80s with an unknown HEAT warhead (RPG, Pz 3?) where the ERA did appear to work.

- You're right here. The footage of the BTR-4 penetrating the T-72B3M has even been verified by another 'game': war thunder. Side protection on T-72s in some places is no more than 60mm. Autocannons might need a slight boost.


Futher: i've argued that modern AGTMs like Javelin need a boost. Ive done tests with Javelins vs T-80s and always seem to average about a 25% kill rate, with over 50% being intercepted by CIWS/VIRSS. This has clearly not been observed in Ukraine. Data from defense analysts suggest javelin effectiveness is about 93% overall. That includes all targets however: MBTs, APCs, IFVs etc...

DRG March 22nd, 2022 06:53 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
We have made adjustments to the way the game calculates the effects of active defensive systems and in the next update they will be somewhat less effective but no matter what we do someone will have differing opinions. It's been like that since the start. It's why WaW even existed. There is no way to make everyone "happy" and it will take months at best for the truth and BS to be sorted out when it comes to who did what and what effect that has and if in the end it means an adjustment to the code we will make adjustments to the code but right now the "truth" is whatever someone on either side want it to appear and real data is not going to be available for a while yet but if we think something needs tweaking we will or have tweaked it.

In regards to the first post, it was obvious either what had been said and written on these forums since the start of this had not been read or it was thought we are living on the moon

Quote:

some things presently in the game fairly obviously need updating in light of the war in Ukraine:
Well DUH.

The actual capabilities of the systems we try to simulate in the game can NEVER BE KNOWN until they are tested in combat and then we make adjustments to try and bring reality and the game closer together but to think we are unaware that certain things "fairly obviously need updating" is just a BIT insulting like we are somehow unaware of events. Hence the response given

Quote:

Autocannons might need a slight boost.
NO...... but the steel side armour on those tanks may need lowering which I have already said we are looking into on another thread

We were already working harder on this than either of us wanted to and Andys doing it with a broken shoulder then this all started requiring us to be even more busy making adjustments almost all of them based on guesstimates because nothing is really known for sure

Karagin March 22nd, 2022 08:00 PM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
So let's hold off on updating things, say until this time next year, when we all have time to digest the information and figure out the actual facts...if that is not good for some then so what, I would rather have you guys in good humor and health and not burnt out. You and Andy have done amazing work.

FASTBOAT TOUGH March 23rd, 2022 02:54 AM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
Add JAVALIN's to the Ukrainian OOB? I do believe Don and I had already done that about two years ago at least. You NEED to check the OOB first or at a minimum, I think..., I'm not sure if..., I believe they might (or not) ....

I believe this is getting out of hand. I believe, if these distractions keep up, we won't see an update until June.

I know that there was a plan on what were the top items they wanted to get done for the next release. Normally all "outside" inputs would've been ended by FEB./or beginning of March.

What we think we know is JAVALIN & NLAW performing a little better than expected. T-72 GENERALLY speaking up to maybe the T-72B3 (Considered a 3rd Gen MBT. aren't so good, however it is no secret with Russia it's always been about numerical superiority it is estimated they operate around over 2000 - 3000 of them.

There's ALOT of technical issues that need looking into.

Karagan is right and I'll go a little further in saying we NEED TO GO TO "ALL STOP" concerning any further changes concerning this war period for the next release.

We experienced the cost of all this "over exuberance" about ~4+ years ago. The cost?

I do believe it was a lay off that lasted over a year with a 1.5-year gap between releases. I believe that was a summer release.

This is not "Burger King" where you can have it your way!

More like Andy and Dons Diner where they offer a good meal and a fair price with a daily "Very Generous Potluck" meal. Can you guess were we fit in metaphorically speaking!?!

This war is not ending anytime soon, kind've more like the Battle of Britain with the resolve of The Blitz.

Time to take the "Very Generous Potluck" meal off the menu.

I'm ready for the just a good meal served when ready without the extra frills. That analogy has now made me hungry!

So, I'm off to bed instead.

Andy get well, I think a shot or two of some of FINE Scottish Whiskey or my preference INNIS & GUNN from the Whiskey or Rum barrel will do you well. Or maybe just a "spot of tea" of which you add any of the afore mentioned items, maybe not so much the Innis & Gunn. ;)

Don, have a couple cold ones, shoot some targets and have a nice walk.

On second thought, shoot first and the rest as you see fit. :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG March 23rd, 2022 05:17 AM

Re: Updates in light of Ukraine war
 
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/18/u...s-russia.html?

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/16/u...pgtype=Article


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