.com.unity Forums

.com.unity Forums (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/index.php)
-   TO&Es (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=108)
-   -   MBT's (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45260)

blazejos June 17th, 2021 05:12 AM

Re: MBT's
Modernisation program "Wilk" in Poland which my be consider a way in which direction MBT's evolution and usage my go in next 20/30 years in this country. This tank is consider as a replacement for older and most numerous T-72/T-72M1 and PT-91 "Twardy" and also mentioned earlier T-72M1R. Leopards after future modernisations will be kept in units.

There are consider such options
  • Domestic tank Wilk
    Designed by OBRUM IV generation 60t tank. Two man crew and remote turennt. Designed in some way similarly to T-14 Armata thick armour on front of hull and light armour in torrent. Armour with use of polish technology designed for PT-91 and also of german IBD Deisenroth, AMAP-B technology composites. Active defense system ASOP is planed in cooperation with Ukrainians - ASOP hard-kill "Zasłon". Also soft-kill SSP-1 OBRA-3 Picture and reactive armour based on polish experiences with ERAWA-3. As we talk about gun here is considered Rheinmetall 120mm Rh 120 LLR L/47 or Rheinmetall 130 mm Rh 130 L/51

    Early graphic of projected tank


  • M1 Abrams tank
    American government offers used Abrams definitely M1 variant


  • K2PL
    South Korea offers their K2 Black Panther in version K2PL with better turrent and hull armour than their variant which will be manufactured in Poland together with transfer of technology and know-how. They are already involved in production of K9 Thunder chassis for polish Krab.

    based on https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/10...zation/page/6/

    South Korea offers full technology transfer and polonization. K2PL itself is newly designed, better turret and hull for K2 Black Panther subsystems. South Korea offers to fund R&D phase and provide Poland with preferential credits to build production capabilities in Poland. Besides that this offer includes large cooperation in terms of both military and civilian industry. K2PL is considered as one of the favorites, also because South Korea is investing a lot in Poland, including large Ion-Lithium batteries factory and new Central Airport Hub
    also Czech army is interested in cooperation with Poland during production and introduction of K2PL probably as (K2CZ) to their armed forces.


  • Altay MBT

    Turkey also offers their main MBT

FASTBOAT TOUGH June 24th, 2021 09:46 PM

Re: MBT's
Just a quick shout out...
UK MOD has decided the CHALLENGER 3 WILL be equipped with the TROPHY APS after all.

I'm on the IPad so you'll have too go to the armyrecognition.com site for today's news to get the story or wait until I get home.

Alright then just imagine the Captain Emo-G-Ine here!

FASTBOAT TOUGH July 4th, 2021 11:58 PM

Re: MBT's
I'm posting the following as it provides a simple overview of what makes a post WWII/Cold War/Modern MBT a GEN 1-3 version and speculates on what might constitute a 4th GEN MBT. But my main purpose is the available and various color schemes of these tanks offered and many other combat vehicles as well. I'm sure somebody will find this useful. :dk:

Still getting back into the "groove" at work...lots changed in the time I was gone.

Got things to take care of, have a good night/morning and as always a GREAT Day!!

I haven't forgotten about the articles I said I'd post while gone, however still tracking down some further information to confirm a tank I thought we'd see before games end apparently will now, not make it after all.


FASTBOAT TOUGH July 6th, 2021 01:41 PM

Re: MBT's
So I posted this list of MBT's several years ago I believe there was 10 total, I thought might make it by games end 2020. But as you'll see, a couple would've made that deadline but for the extension to 2025.

I'll list them from memory though, I might fall short by a couple.


2. ABRAMS M1AC (SEP 3) - IOC; expected FOC Mid 2023

3. ALTAY -PROTOTYPE; 18 MONTH countdown clock is still at 0. DOUBTFUL

4. ARMATA - PROTOTYPE; what happens here affects the IFV version as well. Russia has shifted assets to the very capable T-90M. At best 2024. DOUBTFUL

5. K2 PIM - OPERATIONAL, but in very limited numbers.

6. LEOPARD-A7V Improved - PROYOTYPE; will transition with new designation. Also more likely to a transitional tank first. Assets moving towards joint development MBT with France, possibility UK and Netherlands. Looking in from the outside Poland. Possibly late 2023 or 2024.

7. LeClerc XLR (Scorpion Program); RESET, French are accelerating the whole Program. If EVERYTHING falls into place, FOC might be reached by Late 2023-Mid 2024.

8. There's been talk of a new Chinese MBT I believe briefly touched on in my last Post. DOUBTFUL or 2025 at best. The focus is to build up the NAVY and AIR FORCE at present for continued POWER PROJECTION.

9. I can't remember.

10.The focus of this discussion; CHALLENGER 3 - RESET; From MOD, IOC 2027/FOC 2030. I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO STATE THE OBVIOUS HERE. With IOC already at 2027, things tend to shift more to the "RIGHT" then come to the "LEFT of NEVER."

That should cover it.

Todays my Monday-I'm out!



FASTBOAT TOUGH July 7th, 2021 05:42 AM

Re: MBT's
Now I remember what #9 should've (Though not the reason I'm up at this "ungodlily" hour. :D) been in my last post.

Of course and how could I even forget :rolleyes:...

9. INDIA!! - ARJUN Mk II "The Ferrari of the Desert" - Probably the best tank they'll have with possible exception of their T-90MS. Currently a compromise was reached between DRADO and the Army with the acceptance of the interim ARJUN Mk 1A which is a "world class" tank. It might need a date change though however. To ARJUN Mk II I believe they will get this tank (It's the transitional tank to their indigenous "Future Tank Program".) but I believe it'll be DOUBTFUL (Finally got that spelling right.) we'll see it see it in the game.

Back to bed!!

How could I forget INDIA!?! :shock:


FASTBOAT TOUGH July 13th, 2021 01:44 AM

Re: MBT's
Export version of the M1A2C (SEP 3) anyone?

Australia has already begun the process. Actually, initially they were looking at both the M1A2C or the M1A2 "SPEC" version modified to their needs. It seems now, it's the M1A2C from which Congress is pending approval of the foreign sales deal.
"Initial operational capability is expected in 2025, with rollout to brigades expecting to be complete by 2026." NOTE: This ref. is from 9/20.
"According to the Military Balance 2020, Australia currently has 59 M1A1 (AIM) configuration tanks (hybrids with a mix of equipment used by the U.S. Army and U.S. Marine Corps but ***without depleted uranium layers in armor).*** NOTE: Where indicated with ***, provides a PERFECT example of what I've been talking about for years. The "Big Boys" DON'T FULLY SHARE THIER TOYS-REASON-OPSEC.
NOTE: State Department approval.

Poland it appears is leaning towards the same tank themselves, Though the ref besides their own sources, also comment on an interview conducted by Defense24. I follow this site and didn't see the article but it was released end of day by "ArmyRec", so it just might not have been processed in time by the "others" yet.

No we won't see them.


blazejos July 14th, 2021 05:55 PM

Re: MBT's
Today 14.07.2021 was made a decision in Poland.
Poland will buy ASAP M1A2 ABRAMS SEPv3 and first tanks will be in next year 2022.

Official governmental website google translator because as for now no English version of this info


DRG July 14th, 2021 07:04 PM

Re: MBT's
So the question is does this have the same DU armour as the US version and if no how are they going to be built without it in a year...?

The next question is what shells are being supplied for the main gun.

As Pat noted above.............. The "Big Boys" DON'T FULLY SHARE THEIR TOYS-"

and I have a feeling that will apply in this case but exactly where and how is the other part of the question

FASTBOAT TOUGH July 15th, 2021 03:57 AM

Re: MBT's
I pointed this out specifically in my last post under Australia. The answer simply NO DU Armor for ANY foreign user of the ABRAMS.

When the Iranian militia were operating the Iraqi M1A1 SA tanks, and yes, we wished they hadn't but we really weren't that concerned about it because no OPSEC issues were compromised. If it were, trust me, their would've been any thing left of those handful of tanks they had except scrap.

That's why we've always recovered our tanks from the battlefield. This applies to all the major tank producing countries.

We never sell our Submarines (Though Russia has sold some out dated nukes to India.), Our foreign sale ships go into the shipyard and get completing stripped of our advanced FC, Sonar, Radar etc. etc.

UK did the same when OMAN bought a couple of hundred CHALLENGER 2 tanks w/o their advanced armor. OMAN actually upgraded the armor package on most of their "fleet" just a few years back.

We buy (As well as others.) Russian equipment all the time. And they buy ours. Except we don't buy them from each other. Hell we've even bought about 2 or 3 OPLOT-M tanks from the Ukraine just in the last couple of years that I know I posted in here.

Why would Israel always turn around and improve the jets we sell them if it were the "top shelf" USAF version? That's the first thing they did as they started to get their F-35's in country. Their "U.S." F-35 were/are getting upgraded to the F-35i improved Israeli version.

There's only about ten countries that could be considered major producers of heavy armor in the world, They keep the first tier tanks for themselves and always have. We're very happy to sell you a second tier or third tier version of our tank but, you won't get our Armor Package, FCS, Electronics, Comms, Ammo or our latest Powerplants and Packs. At best you'll be a couple of Generation behind.

However, you'll buy the tank anyway because you don't have the Industrial capacity, Financial resources, Technical know how plus it's better than what your using now, and I can go on and on, to build one yourself.

Foreign sales develop capital for the seller to advance their own technologies and future projects.

That's the English version above.

This is still pending full U.S. Foreign sales approval. Those tanks will need to be RESET to remove all sensitive Armor components etc. etc. There'll be integration issues at Poland's end, not least of which will be training T-72/PT-91 crews.

Let's NOT get ahead of ourselves here!!!!

We just don't have stripped down versions of these tanks laying around.

Poland has never operated these tanks. However, Australia has. What's my point here?

1. Crews are trained on ABRAMS.

2. Australia put their request in first and is ready to stroke the check.

3. China is the bigger threat then Russia.

4. 2 & 3 will ensure Australia get theirs first and will reach FOC also first.

5. We would do well to follow the Australian timeline as laded out in the refs I posted in my last.

I've been watching these things for a very long time, and I hate it when we feel the need to "jump the gun" on these projects to more often then not, have to turn around and change it, delete it or something else.

We're not in a race out here and I'm getting tired of all the rework we've had to do over especially these last few years, when I have years worth of equipment that is already in service but not in the game. I'm just simply ending this with...



DRG July 15th, 2021 07:44 AM

Re: MBT's
That was my point... how DO you remove the DU armour? I have no idea how it's installed and one year from announcement to delivery is just too quick unless this is something that's been in the works for a few years already.

Announcements of intent are all well and good but I only get interested (generally.... there have been lapses ) .... when it's delivered and made operational so these are not going into the Polish OOB until that happens

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:04 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2022, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.