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-   -   MBT's (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45260)

whdonnelly March 27th, 2012 08:02 PM

Re: MBT's
Thanks, to you and whoever else helped, that's good stuff!

FASTBOAT TOUGH March 29th, 2012 01:25 AM

Re: MBT's
OOB EQUIPMENT UPDATE: As I've done in the past, I try my best for any equipment submitted in a Patch Post and as refs become available to update it's status if game entered. This helps validate my ref sources and other info submitted for a piece of equipment. Now you know the why (And you won't see that again!:rolleyes:) So... Turkish ALTAY on track game fielding date 1/2016 is right on target.


FASTBOAT TOUGH April 29th, 2012 11:30 PM

Re: MBTs
Well for those that have been following along in the Patch Page Thread I had a question concerning weapons rng. (4,000m+) and the TI/GSR to match that ability. We know the Max. TI/GSR is 50 held by the Merkava 4/4b. I openly eluded to 3 OOB's, 3 MBTs and 1 IFV. I indicated more time to evaluate the information was needed and I am now prepared to present my findings w/% of certainty of increasing the TI/GSR to a minimum of 50 and adding to the list.
1. USA M1A2 SEP V2 and the current BRADLEY. 100%
2. Russia T-90MS (Also test bed for the ARMATA.) 100%
Some of these are based on the fact that delays in some programs can be linked with technologically advances made during the delays for an improved weapons platform for any branch of service.
4. Turkey ALTAY 100%
5. Russia ARMATA 100%
These next two are under rated except by what the publications say about them. I believe based on their lack of "history" in this area there's a bit of a bias out that goes contrary to what they write about these tanks.
6. South Korea K2 85-90%
7. Japan TYPE 10 (TANK X.) 85-90%

I've already posted on all these and the info is throughout the thread. Don will get more specifics info later in the Fall if needed.

Will have to post later the info I have that the USA 2ND HBCT already fully been reequipped with the M1A2 SEP V2 and improved BRADLEY, site is done for maintenance.

Re posting this site for you designers.



FASTBOAT TOUGH April 30th, 2012 12:24 PM

Re: MBT's
Here's the article showing that the USA 2nd HBCT (Heavy Brigade Combat Team.) is operating with the new M1A2 SEP V2 and improved
M2A3 BRADLEY. The improvement allows for positive target identification from ~3000m+ currently to ~4000m+ and as noted the optics/FCS has now caught up the capabilities of the ammo at over 4000m lethality. I will be posting soon that the current U.S. TOW is in final evaluation status with much improved optics/FCS as well. The range has also been increased to double the current advertised range, it might be fielded this or early next year.


FASTBOAT TOUGH May 3rd, 2012 03:56 AM

Re: MBT's
I need to step back on my last two posts and point out what factors I'm looking at to get to the assumptions of why those tanks listed thus far and to be listed below should probably have their TI/GSR ratings increased to 50. So what are my baselines? Well first off the MERKAVA 4/4b a tank well discussed in the past in this forum that has caused a person or two to get banned for their "over enthusiasm" on the topic at the time, but as most agree is a very formidable weapon and easily in the top ten in the world as are some of the ones listed already and to come below. The other is now the M1A2 SEP V2 so I have a baseline of known MBTs and capabilities. What are those capabilities? Simply this can the tank identify a target out to ~4000m+ and can it hit it using either conventional ammo or missiles if so equipped or with both. I will list a tank below that I thought without even looking would easily have made it into the group however, it can only identify a target to 2500m with a target recognition range of 5000m. I hope you caught the difference in terms and recognize what each means. I don't presume to know the criteria that Don has used, this is an independent study if you will of the information I (As well as you can find.) have found through my sources. Now you know how I got there and here's the rest...
8. UK CHALLENGER 2 with TOGS II ~2006 @ 100%.
9. UKRAINE OPLOT M @ 100%.
10. GERMANY LEOPARD 2 A7+ @ 100%. Note: The late model A6 versions are unknown at this time and to further complicate matters the latest foreign versions as well though off the top of my head I suspect the Swiss and Swedish versions might be in play(?).
11. France LECLERC @ 0%. The last known upgrade was ~2006+ with a second generation system as described above coinciding with one of the refs as supplied below. Second generation I know limits the TI/GSR to 40 unless additional info is found, this was discussed between Don and myself concerning a couple of tanks about two years ago (M60T?) in the Patch Page Thread.
So this is my work list, some might be in the game already others as noted require a further look as this is preliminary at this time.
And before it gets brought up, China from what LITTLE is out there is at mid level second generation at best for now.


If I hurry I can get ~6hrs before work, sooo much better then when I was on the (das) boat!?! Have a great day all!!

:capt: He sails on again!! :rolleyes:


FASTBOAT TOUGH May 15th, 2012 02:48 AM

Re: MBT's
The news keeps coming so along with it the work list to some extent...

1. About ARJUN MKII I agree with the updated start date. I might be looking at a date change for ARJUN though, but I'm not ready to "pull the trigger" on that yet and not here either. But some issues have come up. The big one being Russia is trying to push the T-90MS over the ARJUN MKII. As you might or not remember the Indian Army set up a head to head competition between the ARJUN and T-90S (Platoon or Company of each, can't remember.) over a period of a month with the surprising result (It performed better then expected by it's Army supporters and Developers.) re-soundly beat the T-90S in all categories. The push is for the same with the updated versions of each. Thus far the ARJUN MKII is doing very well in the current evaluation process that included ~100 upgrades all together.
Also LAHAT and TROPHY addressed here.

2. Keeping the only plant open in the U.S for tank production, don't worry Congreess stepped in on this one.

3. RTA COS reviews the OPLOT though I must say it looks like the "M" to me as we discussed was a possibility when I submitted it for 6.0 and I see provision is already in place should it be.

4. Iran equipping ZOLFAGER with new FCS. Also I believe the ZOLFAGAR 2 is in the game and should be deleted as it's only a prototype test bed.

5. This caused a stir in India.

6. Russia scrapping a lot of "T's" from the Army. Dates could be an issue here for current inventory in both the Army and OOB.

7. The push is on for the SAF to find a new tank. I believe last year I noted they were looking into LEO 2A4, T-90S, OPLOT and one other that escapes my mermory now, but should in this thread. This still comes from the "You think!" catagory. The OILFANT is to under gunned and thin skinned for the neighborhood it's surrounded by.

8. Armor and Jets going into storage in Austrialia, yep budjet cuts again.

9. Indonesian human rights issues could stop sell of Dutch LEO to that country.

10. Italian CENTAUROS to Russia? Could happen they have already ordered the LMV (See MRAP Thread.).

As of 1 JUNE I'm shutting down the "news" side of things in all "my" threads to focus on the Patch Page inputs. As many know, if you have an issue or piece of equipment you want looked into, I'll answer and do my best to help. So it begins (Not that it really ended.) this news format was intended to help me stay organized and it gives you a view of my work list and how things change. Update #1 HELOS 3/4 done from last year to now. Jets will be next with VISION issues to be asked and hopefully addressed as SNIPER, LITENING and Russian and Chinese systems are prolific now. That's just one mans thoughts. So I'm ready for Don too be :tough: :mad: :re: but hopefully :rolleyes: :) once in awhile as long as I don't do too much of these
:doh: :banghead: :pc: :deadhorse: well one can hope anyway ;)!! So to start the 2012/2013 Campaign I promise NO EQUIPMENT INPUTS FOR NEW ZEALAND!?!


gingertanker May 20th, 2012 08:11 AM

Re: MBT's
i havent been here for a long time and now i saw a pm regarding some questions about merkava. i looked around the thread and saw some heated discussion. if someone can write shortly what the main points of content were, i will try and help. ofcourse my intimate knowledge is with the Mk II, not with the merkava mk IV. But i have seen them operate and i know very very well the tactical ideas behind the design.

FASTBOAT TOUGH May 20th, 2012 02:26 PM

Re: MBT's
Well welcome back then! The hot topic of two years ago now I believe, had to do with how many combat troops the MERKAVA was able to carry internally. As I recall the number ranged from 2 to 8 combat troops depending on who chimed in on the topic and the source material presented. I think I settled on 6 even though I presented info that indicated 8 as well. When that was addressed in the 5.0 or 5.5 Patch the carry went from 0 to 4which seems a reasonable solution to the issue pending further definitive information. See Patch Page Thread Post #3 Item M4. Also see the MERKAVA Thread currently resting on Page 5 of TO&Es. More recently and in the last couple of posts I used the MERKAVA and the newest version of the ABRAMS M1A2 SEP V2 to start a conversation/investigation on other tanks whose vision should be increased to 50 (Like the MERKAVA currently.) based on known current FCS on board those other tanks.


gingertanker May 20th, 2012 05:41 PM

Re: MBT's
Ok...So, i can accurately reply about the merkava mk II, and if i makae mistakes, they will be very minor and the result of changing my position and not having been in a merk for some 4 years now.

The "corridor" or "back-corridor", as we call the rear entrance of the merkava was originally installed to allow easy bail-out for tank crews. it replaced bailing out from the turret hatches, and allows the crew to mount/dismount the tank quickly and without climbing up and being exposed to enemy fire. this is effective to the point that in the Mk IV, the quick mount drill is done by the rear corridor, not by hatches.

to the left and right of the corridor are the main ammo stocks, made of 12(im almost certain about this, if im wrong dont kill me), 4 round milspec-fire resistant polymer cases. they are capable of being assembled and dissassembled, so you can choose to have more or less ammo cases. in maximum capacity they hold, as noted 12X4 round=48. in addition 6 rounds are carried in a rack just under and to the left of the gun, near the loaders legs. these are used for quick loading, with the 4 round cases in the back used to refill the 6 round rack or if needed load to the gun. There is also a possibilty, almost always used for white phosphorus rounds, to stack rounds in the lower front area of the hull, just outside the turret ring, in(up to 3) removable 2 round up-right polymer cases. this is meant for the WP, which is far more accurate if allowed to stand upright before firing, for technical reasons i cant be arsed to spicify right now.

so, the corridor is placed in the center rear of the hull, with 6 4 round packs to eahc side. it is roughly(dont take me to court) 1.6-1.75 meters long, and allows a man to more or less lay, allthough probably will have to bend his knees to fit in properly. it would be a hard press for 4 infantry troops to fit there, and almost impossible if you consider their gear. I would say 2 easily with full gear, 3 with some of the gear in the rear outside storage. 4 would be possible, but so severly unconvinient that they would arrive half dead to the combat area. i think in the merkava 4 its a little roomier, so i imagine they could do 4 guys with some discomfort and alot of good will.

but! the ammo stocks can be very easily removed, and with one side removed you could have 24 rounds left in the tank and easily carry 6 men or maybe more. with all rear ammo removed you can fit in two strectchers with wounded and 2-4 medical team. so lets assume for the best mix of troop and ammo(Mk II), you could have only 24 rounds in the rear+6 ready to fire+6 in upright cases=total 36! and still carry 6 men easily in the back. 36 rounds aint that bad. i would assume(although i dont know for sure), that the same is true for mk IV, only probably less rounds, possibly 24-26, because 120mm is bigger.

hope this clears some things up.

FASTBOAT TOUGH May 20th, 2012 07:22 PM

Re: MBT's
Yes this helps and backs up the points that were brought up as the topic was being addressed in the MERKAVA Thread from the crew issues, ammo reduction and a couple of others related to trying to get the numbers to work in fact I believe the picture I submitted in Patch Page Post #5 shows 4 soldiers exiting the MERKAVA IV while it's engaged. It sounds like 4 is reasonable to you as well? Also I thought the MERKAVA IV is about a meter longer then previous Mks as well, but would need to go back and check to make sure.


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