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FASTBOAT TOUGH December 28th, 2014 02:56 AM

Re: MBT's
1 Attachment(s)
1. Even Russian sources say the T-72B3 has a NEW FCS. Many components make up a complete FCS system one I've spoken of recently is the issue concerning the Italian GALAX GALILEO FCS(See Page 29 Post 282). The ARIETE C1 has only certain components of the system on board vs. the full system on the CENTURO. The difference in this case is mostly in the TI/GSR values 40 versus 50 (When submitted later.). The T-72B2 does not possess a "Hunter-Killer" mode of operation, this is the difference in the COMPLETE FCS that the T-72B3 has that capability.

2. I am willing to concede the RELICT vs KONTACT-5 issue however as I noted the whole turret issue still stands in regards to the ERA configuration. Having re-read the army-recognition.com (AR) data and Russian defensenet.com blog (DN) 1. They know some other form of protection is under the KONTACT-5 plates to account for the configuration differences from the other T-72 variants. The first AR reports there is a 20mm layer of applique armor (Very effective normally think MERKEVA as that's a key part of its protection.) around the turret, The DN site believes it to be RELICT on the glacis area of the turret.

3. First with ARENA-E simply think of the TROPHY system by comparison. Which this tank does have.

4. I still stand by the Main Gun as well. Refer back to the original Post for that and the newer AR ref I submitted recently.

I submit things like the word "new" and "A picture(s) is worth a thousand words."...

And I'll save the JANE'S for later if needed.

Attachment 13371
Note on closest tank of 9 on the turret front facing you what appears to be an IR light used by the SHTORA system. This is not unusual as the Russian Army has started to use their armor defensive systems in a "hybrid configuration" the ref touches on this below concerning the SHTORA system. On the turret top you can see the commanders "hunter killer" panoramic site. And finally on the back of the turret you can clearly see the large can shaped radar of the ARENA-E system.

For review...

And since it seems some things might have been missed when the above ref was used to start this conversation, let me post a couple of direct quotes from it. It would seem this goes back to one of my PITA issues I've posted on before.

1. "Refurbished and upgraded T-72B3 tanks are fitted with new engine, new gunners sight, new fire control systemm and have some other improvements. Now this MBT has a hunter-killer capability."

2. "The tank has new fire control system and new ballistic computer. Gunner uses new Sosna-U sight with thermal imager. This sight has day/night and all weather combat capability. The T-72B3 has a hunter-killer capability even though it lacks commander's panoramic sight. Vehicle commander can select a target and lay the gun and let the gunner complete all the aiming and firing process. During that time commander looks for the next target. The tank is also fitted with new digital radio system."

2a. "lacks commander's panoramic sight"-It doesn't anymore/see pic above again/many initial refs left the door open for "down the road" upgrades. That time has already come and gone. Those tanks pictured went West at the time of the article-who's West of Russia and slightly to the South? The T-72B3 is the frontline tank there.

Sorry for the crankiness (Well to a degree anyway :angel) but...
forget about it...good night!


FASTBOAT TOUGH December 29th, 2014 11:27 PM

Re: MBT's
4 Attachment(s)
Suhiir thanks for your suggestion about the JPEG, from how many months ago now? Well to Don's shun-grin here's that pesky poster, but this time thanks to Suhiir, I can finally as I discovered last May tie up the Turkish heavy armor issue with the below supporting data from SIPRI. I also wanted to demonstrate what I feel is a very practical use of this data for you game developer folks out there and others involved in the equipment business. I must apologize for not adjusting the document before printing it out because some of what got chopped off is any improvement on the tanks made before they shipped to Turkey mostly with the improvements made by the Germans with the M-48 tanks (Optics/some FCS) well some of you know how I am with some "tech y things" :pc: and :typing:. I was already a ref-nazi but the Turkish armor situation was in bad shape when all I wanted to do was add the M-60T which lead to the proverbial "rabbit-hole" (I better stop there Don's probably getting bad flashbacks about now! ;)) but I have to thank him for pushing on the matter and thank Suhiir and IMP for their sometimes "hidden" online and offline moral support-THANKS! Sometimes (Rarely) the simplest ref can yield the most results in this case again the "poster" with the documents provided below and all the refs I've already submitted. I can honestly say that the Turkish Heavy Armor boils down to it now with minor tweaks we already applied to the newer tanks already submitted. My concern was with the older tanks to include the continued use of the German LEOPARD 1 tanks. I will in the EDIT phase provide the Post covering the background and source of the "Poster"

Attachment 13379

SIPRI Data...
Attachment 13380 Attachment 13381
Attachment 13382

Go to the website to see how they gather their data and what they do.


FASTBOAT TOUGH December 30th, 2014 12:16 AM

Re: MBT's
But of course the EDIT clock strikes again...but here's if you will the "edited" version I transferred to the "home" thread here...Pg. 7 Post 169 if you want to see the original one or see how we interact in putting this together from my perspective and helping each other lose a little more hair faster than Don and I would like, please go to the Patch Post Thread and follow the process. For the topic at hand it'll be on Pg. 7 Post 65.
On the previous pages in the above mentioned Thread, look for the Patch submission concerning I believe the M60A1 RISE MBT I believe many might find that process useful in some considerations/why some decisions on equipment are made. I was personally (And at times still.) at the time on maybe not "steep" learning curve but, certainly a "hilly" one. Sometimes even when good work is submitted, a little humility and understanding can go a long way to later getting more of what your seeking done down the road providing you are still doing your homework.


Suhiir December 30th, 2014 12:18 AM

Re: MBT's
Always nice when you can find a definitive source as opposed to the usual "find six sources where four use one of the other two as their source and the two that have other sources disagree".

FASTBOAT TOUGH December 30th, 2014 12:27 AM

Re: MBT's
How true sometimes I feel like my head will implode before it explodes!! :soap: :banghead: :censor: :fire: French 105mm artillery! That'll be years our lives Don and I will never get back or least it felt like that at times.


FASTBOAT TOUGH December 30th, 2014 01:13 AM

Re: MBT's
HMmm make that for this Thread Page 17 Post 169-sorry!


FASTBOAT TOUGH December 30th, 2014 02:40 AM

Re: MBT's
4 Attachment(s)
OK after this I'm taking a break. But I'm learning to use my printer for all the other things I can do and if I'm to trying to show the benefit of this site at least from my perspective I need to do a better job getting the info to you, after all you deserve that much. So these I checked them and they're good. A couple of highlights are...
1. At the end of the German section it validates the data I provided concerning the conversion of the LEOPARD 2A4 tanks to the Turkish LEOPARD 2NG (Better than the Singapore upgrade to some degree.).

2. On the last page U.S. section you'll see the M-60 tanks used for the Turkish M-60T (Similar to the Israeli SABRA, but with an updated FCS.) anyway all the data below now...

Attachment 13383 Attachment 13384

Attachment 13385 Attachment 13386

I'm done in have a good night!


FASTBOAT TOUGH December 31st, 2014 02:43 AM

Re: MBT's
I was walking through the park one day when...well this is no musical, so to the topic at hand recently posted about. I was interested in the stories coming out of the Ukraine about them capturing a couple of T-72B3 tanks. What happened was within a month of that story some backed off and said they were T-72B1 tanks but more reliable reporting identified them as T-64BV tanks; no big deal the main tank of the Ukrainian Army is an advanced version of this tank (They are currently modernizing them further now) very plausible with the loss of bases in the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. Then further analysis from Intel agencies were released and other evidence surfaced from news sources and from personal videos (Most famous the BUK-2 launcher being trucked across the border back into Russia minus one SAM in July after the Malay/Indonesian passenger jet was shotdown.) when it noted a "ghost" from the past has reappeared. The "ghost" was the very Russian T-64BV. One site (Ukraine at War) even showed what was identified and to me looks like a T-64A on a Russian transporter parked in rebel held territory in Eastern Ukraine (They were nice enough to provide a satellite pictures as well.). Both possible as Russia along with the Ukraine (Also having produced more of them and again being the largest operator of the type.) still have vast numbers of them in stock still. If the Ukrainian authorities are correct they traced the T-64BV tanks back an active armored unit in the St. Petersburg area in Russia. From here I'll leave you with my thoughts and a couple of points about the tanks.

My thoughts and points...
This tank was never exported think about that for a moment compared against all other Russian types you can think of.
You'll at least understand that below in the background section from some pretty reliable sources; I never realized how revolutionary this tank was in its development at its prime. As a side the Ukraine is reported to be ready to export to the Congo advanced T-64BM1/or 2 tanks making them the first export customer of the the type.

The T-64 base model never really went away per say. Most of them would survive to become the T-64R version which was about the 4th mod in the series. Versions would go out of service but the tanks themselves seemed to just keep evolving. You can see the potential issues here for us.

* There is credible evidence that Russian T-64BV saw combat service in the first Chechen War and the 2008 border incursion into Georgia. The sources below indicate these captured and otherwise documented sightings etc. of the Russian T-64BV tanks shows/or describes them as well maintained.

* I believe the T-64BV is still in service with the Russian military in some capacity. Though I don't feel it's in any frontline capacity; That job has fallen to the improved T-72 types notably the B3 and possible B4 yet to come (ARMATA will I feel be the driver of this type if it becomes operational. The ARMATA is though on track and on time.),T-90 and the ARMATA when it enters service in a couple of years.

* Currently it's being reported the remaining and unpopular T-80 tanks will be removed from service by the end of 2015. The T-72B3 was designated as it's replacement when developed and MANY will be converted to the B3 standard, some estimates run up to or more than a thousand.

* 1991 Russia reportedly scraps around 10,000-20,000 tanks to include leftover WWII stock, T-54 - T-64 tanks.
2005 6,000 tanks reportedly T-54 - T-64 and T-80.
2012 unknown thousands T-55/T-64/some T-72 and T-80.
These numbers would include SPAA and APC types as well.

One background source below well, some people like him some don't. I don't care about the game data but, what I know is his research on equipment is good and for me verifiable. Keep it in that vain of "background" information.


The following are top notch.


This is as good as anywhere...some economics (What you thought I wouldn't do this!?!)

All in all not a bad way to end the year I think, this should keep you busy for a bit. For me back to work this afternoon, so I want to wish you all a HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!! And please have fun but also please be safe out there as well.


FASTBOAT TOUGH January 5th, 2015 10:01 PM

Re: MBT's
Concerning the ARMATA from the Main Forum (FYI: RIA NOVOSTI) new info at the bottom as indicated.

As noted elsewhere the best we can do is mark our calendars for 9 May and hopefully we'll get our first look, providing of course we "see it" at all. I don't know how many remember me posting the "first look" of the T-95 (In the MBT Thread) a few years back, what we saw was a covered tank on a transporter. My wish list for the ARMATA is to see a reliable interior cutaway for the purpose of seeing if the crew will have access to the gun area. As noted the ARMATA is to have a fully automated turret , so you would understand my concerns here though, it would make sense to me that the crew as necessary would have an interior access hatch to the interior to take manual control if required. Can't remember but doesn't the MERKAVA IV have an armored crew compartment as well? Anyway that's my real world/game world concerns.


BLACK EAGLE (My first post in the MBT Thread I believe.)

My feeling in the ARMATA will be a hybrid of a new design with many attributes from the BLACK EAGLE. Even the T-95 was to have been a "lesser" tank then the BLACK EAGLE, the T-95 was designed to be a cheaper version of it. It is very important to remember the time frame of development of these two tanks as compared to the ARMATA, simply stated the economy has been much improved and Russia's ongoing commitment to modernize the military by 2020

To answer an earlier question, of curiosity the T-90AM is not listed in the variant section of ref. one. However as noted the T-90AM was Russian forces designated while the T-90MS was for export. However Russia has both as the T-90MS was an improved model over the T-90AM due to customer modifications. This is not the first time this has happened Mi-24 and T-50/PAF-FA also come to mind as posted else where. To these tanks the info will be in the Patch/or MBT Threads when I submitted them.

I will move this post into the MBT Thread at a later date.

"If something is not impossible, there must be a way of doing it." - Sir Nicholas Winton

New Info Starts here...
Russia now concerned about the ARMATA Rubles increases, we call it the F-35 here...

Russians claim to be arming the ARMATA with an ATGM unknown to the West, or as I've designated it "The Super Whama Dime Thingy Magigy that goes ZOOM BANG PooOOP!!" :rolleyes: however, seriously they have already fielded the replacement to the I believe it was the IGLA MANPAD SAM so I give some credence to the claim. I'll post the other later during this house cleaning.

Now for the headache :sick: but something just isn't right about this so everyone "stand-down" for now. But those Germans...
Is there a difference between this and the LEOPARD 2A7+? That's the issue. At worst a date change, I don't remember when we had it enter service when submitted a couple of years ago.

And finally about 2 or 3 pages back I posted on my MBT work list the following. Well an early win again on this subject matter of tanks for Military-Today for getting the jump on everyone for the following that I can now submit as an ADD for China. First the original data followed by the new info. What's important is I have a baseline tank to build upon when submitted from the article.

It looks like "Thunder Birds Are A GO!"

Well I'm going to enjoy the rest of my weekend with the Granddaughter who'll hopefully scare the rest of this Flu out of system!!!


FASTBOAT TOUGH January 6th, 2015 12:48 AM

Re: MBT's
Before anyone says anything the granddaughter is asleep!?! Alright here's what happened with the LEOPARD 2A7+ in late 2010 KMW was to start the conversion of 200 LEOPARDS to the LEOPARD 2A7+ standard. That obviously didn't happen because if you remember I had posted on a 200 tank deal from Germany to Saudi Arabia which after languishing for over a year the German Government finally canceled the deal. This slowed production of the tanks for the Bundswaher. Those KMW links are dead now (And you think the internet is so good, well it s...s as a librarian.) It seems the 200 Bundswehr tanks are being upgraded and the original ATTICA FCS has been upgraded in that time as well and as already reported in this thread last year as noted at the end of ref 3 below. Recommended action...
1. Change LEOPARD 2A7+ Start date to either 6/15 or 10/15.
2. Change LEOPARD 2A7+ TI/GSR to 50 vice current 45 based on improved ATTICA system vs. ATTICA when submitted.
3. Copy latest one/or two LEOPARD 2A6 UNIT(s) in the game as NEW UNITS to reflect addition of the complete ATTICA FCS with TI/GSR 50. Dates to reflect 1/15-12/20 or latest 6/15-12/20 as these upgrades have been also ongoing for at least a year. Have seen no other information to suggest any other upgrades to these tanks were considered/or done.

Normally I'd be pissed about this but we went with what we had.

So simply I'm just going to say THANKS-JANE'S!!!!

Don I'll get UNIT numbers to you in the early evening have somewhere to be in the morning.


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