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-   -   Mod: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen - v0.75 minor update (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=38038)

Sombre March 15th, 2008 09:31 PM

Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen - v0.75 minor update
1 Attachment(s)



-- version 0.75

-- TWEAK - remove 1 astral income

-- TWEAK - major reduction of magic weapons, now only on the Temple Guard halberds (it was severely limiting options vs Lizards, which was lame)

-- FIX - Salamanders now animals!

-- TWEAK - Stegadons considerably higher cost in res and gold

-- version 0.7

-- TWEAK - Poison res values changed across the board to better match dom3 styling

-- FIX - Crest plate for warchiefs, no crest plate for skink scouts

-- TWEAK - Temple Guard now spawned by Slann when they first arrive in their 'awakening' state

-- TWEAK - Both 4th and 5th gen Slann more expensive to recruit, but same upkeep

-- TWEAK - Sacred spawnings now have armour for e9 bless, but still no helmets

-- FIX - 3rd gen shapechange further fixed, doh

-- FIX - flood of serpents cost bug fixed

-- version 0.6

-- FIX - Skink Warchief given swamp survival

-- FIX - 3rd gen Slann shapechange fixed

-- FIX - One who fathomed the depths now amphibious as intended

-- FIX - Tail Spines now ranged attack

-- Version 0.5

-- CONTENT - Nakai the Wanderer national hero added

-- TWEAK - Temples now cost 600

-- TWEAK - Sweeping morale changes to reflect effectiveness of 'cold blooded' in the warhammer tabletop - effectively it's +2 ldr - so skinks have same ldr as humans

-- TWEAK - Repriced commanders according to new scheme

-- TWEAK - Spawning of Huanchi moved to conjuration, descriptions tweaked

-- TWEAK - Blowpipes no longer ignore shields, do more damage, skink hunters better prec

-- TWEAK - Skink costs reduced significantly

-- TWEAK - Slann can no longer ever be empowered in blood

-- TWEAK - 4th gen Slann slightly more likely to get nature, another 10% on elements

-- CONTENT - Terradon summon added

-- CONTENT - Stegadon recruitable added with placeholder graphic, no attack sprite

-- CONTENT - Added flood of serpents, rain of snakes and serpents of sotek spells

-- CONTENT - Added Third Generation Slann

-- CONTENT - Added Second Generation Slann of the Seas

-- CONTENT - Added watershape to Tzunki spawning

-- CONTENT - Added Nightscale of Huanchi, Bloodscale of Sotek, Deepscale of Tzunki, Sunscale of Chotec

-- Version 0.4

-- TWEAK - Tepok spawnings now teleport (fly)

-- TWEAK - Temple Guard gold and resource cost raised

-- TWEAK - Terradon mount attacks att improved

-- TWEAK - All summoned sacred spawnings now upkeep free

-- FIX - Resolved weapon ID conflicts with CBM and my other MA mods + Tomb Kings

-- version 0.3

-- Changed salamander breath to avoid conflict with cbm

-- Added Skink Shamans

-- Reduced cost of skink cav and terradons, made terradons size 3

-- blowpipes more accurate, less damaging


Ok, these guys are now out of beta and into version 0.2

They have a lot of their stuff ready and are essentially playable. They still need more spells, the stegadon troop, heroes, a better flag, some graphical tweaks and of course the 2nd and 3rd generation slann summons. These will all come in time.

------------------------ ORIGNAL POST --------------------------

Today I started work on the Lizardmen from Warhammer Fantasy Battle. I'm still working on Empire and other stuff, but I really like the look of lizardmen and feel inspired to do their graphics.

Before that though, here's a rough overview of the nation. The thing that makes them unique is basically their crazy powerful Slann mage priests. The /weakest/ of these guys are basically the best mages in warhammer and I'm going to translate this to dom3. The downside being their ridiculously high costs. Lizardmen will not have massed battlemages because they will lack the steps between basic mage and uber mage - you either get a skink priest or you get an incredibly expensive Slann. There's no all purpose middle guy.


Extremely potent Slann magepriests
Access to all paths but death with top tier astral
Specialised troops like kroxigor, stegadons and salamanders
Excellent morale across the nation
Devastating and relatively easy battlefield communions


Below par skink province defense
Temples and forts very expensive
Slann are most expensive mages in the game
No real mid tier combat mages
Somewhat weak against missile fire

Shovah32 March 15th, 2008 09:59 PM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
Sounds like fun. To me, it seems like the Saurus troops wont be as good as they should be. If they are only getting weak armour then that protection 8 will be killer. Natural protection of 10 or so seems better to me. Slightly higher strength, maybe 13(perhaps even 14), also seems more appropriate - right now they're barely above tough humans. I know that they shouldn't have too much armour thematically, and I don't think they should in game, but they will need something to keep them a little above alot of the heavier human troops in terms of survivability with all the missile weapon love that exists.

Which units will be capitol only? Temple guard seems likely, and maybe chameleon skinks(although I hope not). Possibly some of the bigger beasties too.

And for commanders? I would guess 4th generation slann, but what about the 5th generation guys? Sure, you don't want them having too many slann, but large cost should handle that. And having both slann capitol only would both really reduce the magical strength of lizardmen and also mean that 5th generation slann would rarely get used, even if they were alot cheaper than the 4th.

I know the second generation slann will be completely badass, but any idea about their actual magic levels?

Just throwing some random thoughts around.

ps: If you don't finish this quickly, you may have to start getting all your anonymous mail scanned.

Sombre March 15th, 2008 10:14 PM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
I'm actually not planning on making Slann or Temple Guard cap only (they can teleport between their cities after all). Instead they'll be restricted by seriously high costs. Well the Slann will anyway, the Temple Guard will just be an average level sacred.

As for the Saurus, they actually are fairly vulnerable to missile fire in warhammer, where toughness 4 will only get you so far, but you might be right that they need natural prot of 10+. I don't want missiles to be their bane or anything, just one tactic that works ok against them. They will be very cost efficient and powerful close combat troops though. Regarding their strength, in Warhammer they hae strength 4 which is the same as Ogres and strong orcs, humans, dwarfs etc. I gave Ogres str 14 in dom3 because they're size 3 - clearly they're at the top of the group that has strength 4 in warhammer. Meanwhile strength 4 humans, such as those found in the empire, might only get str 11 in dom3. So Saurus will get either str 12 or 13. They're subsantially stronger than humans, but they aren't like ogres or trolls or kroxigors or anything. Also their Obsinite weapons will have nice stats, so they'll do enough damage in close combat I'm sure.

The second generation Slann will probably be rocking something like S6 guaranteed, with 4s and 5s in other magic coming up too and chances of higher levels. I'll need to think about it but believe me they really will have crazy magical powers. They'll be H5 for one thing, being basically the holiest (and oldest) things in the entire warhammer world.

Shovah32 March 15th, 2008 10:27 PM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
I am very glad to here that Sombre, very glad indeed. Now get to work, before I get out the whip.

samoht March 16th, 2008 01:41 AM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
I just tried out both of the other Warhammer mods you've done and I'm impressed.

I've always thought the Warhammer universe could lend itself well to the Dominions style of gameplay and you managed to really capture the feel of the Ogre Kingdoms and Skaven. I don't know if you're looking for any input/feedback on those mods, but I'd be more than happy to tell you more of what I think via PM if you're interested.

I'm very much looking forward to this one being completed.

Just a couple general questions tho...

How long does it normally take for you to complete a mod like this?

Do you plan on making mods for all of the various Warhammer armies?

DigitalSin March 16th, 2008 04:31 AM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
Thank god for you, Sombre. I've been kicking around the idea of making a lizardman mod for god-knows-how-long, however never got around to making it due to school and other games distracting me. If you want some input, I'll be glad to help!

Sombre March 16th, 2008 06:08 AM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
I love any input on any of my mods. I prefer over the forums than by PM, but it's your choice.

It usually takes me ages to complete a mod. I don't have a huge amount of free time to do this stuff and graphics are hard because I'm no artist. Lizardmen are quite graphically demanding too.

I plan on making mods for all the warhammer nations, yes, eventually. That's a matter of years though at this rate ;]

I have Empire about 20% finished, but I was getting a little tired of them and wanted to do something different.

samoht March 16th, 2008 11:45 AM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
Well sweet. What program do you use to make all of the sprites?

And with the Empire you could more or less just take sprites from the game, maybe recolor them a bit, change a couple stats and give them new descriptions... unless you're going for all original artwork.

I can't wait to see the Dwarves and Orcs/Goblins... you know... ages from now.

One idea for the Lizardmen... I don't know if you've already thought of this but maybe make a new pretender for them and make it an Old One. It would work well with their fluff, and the way the game works. One of their gods coming back to claim dominion of the world.

Sombre March 16th, 2008 01:51 PM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
I've pretty much decided I don't like doing pretenders for my mod nations. I will try to give them appropriate ones from the available selection though.

I've done quite a few sprites for the empire. I don't like working from base sprites, though I do sometimes use them as templates. I use Paint Shop Pro for my graphical editing.

I might bump the empire thread and put up some preview artwork or something. It's not my best work though.

As for Orcs and Goblins, Okin was working on them. Llamabeast has actually done a nation very close to Tomb Kings too and they play well.

llamabeast March 16th, 2008 07:54 PM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
Ooh wow, this is really exciting! Lizardmen would probably be top of my personal list of mods I'd like to see, so I was very happy to come home to find this post! I think the Lizardmen are thematically super cool.

I really like the analysis you've done as well, you have a good thorough style of planning things before you get stuck in.

I think I agree with Shovah's comments about the Saurus' prot and strength, though I guess playtesting will really be the best way of find out what works well.

I'm intrigued to see how you do the Slann (cost/magic). The unusual nature of having rare, super-powerful mages may make them quite a different nation to play off the bat.

Valandil March 16th, 2008 08:40 PM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
Not totally sure about your saurus stats. In WH they have ws4, giving them above average attack and defense. You're values do not reflect this adequately, in my opinion. In fact, in WH, saurus warriors, especially blessed ones, are probably in the top five infantry units. Your version would be in the bottom third, especially compared to eg. Panpiper's chaos warriors.

It occurs to me that these lizards will actually have MORE Slann, and flying ones at that, than most nations can field high mages. Being recruitable everywhere, AND summonable via ubiquitous astral, they will likely be massed. With native s5+, basically any army in the game will disingtegrate against lizard magic after about turn 45.

I honestly, if it wer my nation (and it isn't,) would shift the focus more towards the elite saurus infantry and monsters, and away from massed Slann.

By the way, Sombre, do you remember the old edition, when Slann Lords were fully capable combat toads? Otherwise known as the "flaming sword of rhuin" era?

Sombre March 16th, 2008 09:08 PM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
Uh,.. I don't see how being recruitable everywhere and summonable (these are different units mind you) will lead to Slann being 'massed'. They're going to be expensive both to recruit and to summon, which will prohibit massing them. The idea with restricting them to cap in order to restrict numbers is fine if you're accepting people will basically build 1 a turn because they're such a great deal. That isn't how I'm planning on doing things. I'm restricting their numbers by making sure they aren't a no brainer deal. Very powerful very expensive. It's a particularly weird that you're basically calling them overpowered when you have no idea of their cost and only a rough idea of their magic. People would mass them if they were an amazing bargain or something, sure, but they won't be and the regular units will be priced in a balanced way, so you won't end up ignoring their troops to recruit just commanders.

As for the Saurus - I have the lizardmen army book here and they have WS3, I1. Possibly they have WS4 in some ealier/later edition, but I haven't seen that. WS3 = roughly att 10, I1 = deduction to fighting skill in my book. But believe me with the bonus bite attack they will offensively be plenty dangerous. I'm willing to put their prot higher, but I really think you're overrating them in WH. They rarely break but they are MUCH worse than chaos warriors. Chaos Warriors have far better weapon skill, initiative and armour and everything else is pretty even. Compare the points costs. I'm not going to balance the dom3 versions against panpiper's chaos warriors either, because I have my own system and I'm not really familiar with panpiper's mod.

Temple Guard have WS4 and I2 and in dom3 terms I'll probably give them 12 att and 10 def or something.

Valandil March 16th, 2008 11:28 PM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound so hostile. In the newest book, saurus are WS4 I2. According to my lizardman player friend. He might be cheating me.

I have no idea whether slann will be overpowered, probably not given your reputation as a modder, but, in my extremely limited experiance, gold is not really an obstacle to mage produciton late game, and astral pearls are crazy common.

Kristoffer O March 17th, 2008 05:34 AM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
Hi I would probably make WH S4 = Dom Str12-14

So with the Saurians being cool I would go for Str 13 and perhaps increase the HP to 15.

Wardens and Black Lords have something like that in str (perhaps12) and HP IIRC and I guess they would translate as S4 T4 WS4 units.

Kristoffer O March 17th, 2008 05:37 AM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen

Cool of you to make the mod.

JK has an Lizarman army. My brother has a Skaven army. When you have finished this you have to make a dark elf army!

Although, I agree, both Skaven and Lizardmen are cooler http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

HoneyBadger March 26th, 2008 01:29 AM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
I'm really, really excited about this mod. Lizardmen are my favorite Warhammer nation. I don't care for the "look" of them as much as some of the other nations, but I definitely appreciate the theme and the units themselves.

YAY WEAPONS! YAY MAGIC! YAY DINOSAURS! ok there's my inner 10 year old.

Plus, I trust in Sombre's ability to create masterpieces of pixel art.

It's all good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Sombre March 30th, 2008 12:05 PM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
Slow going so far. Mostly been working on stats, but I should have a unit graphic or two to show in a little while. The Saurus are like slightly bigger, spikier, blue Ctis slave warriors.

Lizardman armies are very blue overall.

Valandil March 31st, 2008 05:32 PM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
I have a crazy friend with a yellow and red lizard army, but in general, I suppose that's true.

Any hope of implementing something like drain magic into dominions? I can't think of a way, but I'd love to see it. One of my favourite spells.

Sombre March 31st, 2008 06:23 PM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
I think the only way I could simulate drain magic is probably with a national mr buffing spell. There isn't much else I could do. I suppose I could give them an anti magical creature spell as well.

Valandil April 3rd, 2008 02:57 AM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
Yeah. That's about what I concluded too- dispel is ritual only, etc.

Hmm. That's fine, though. Slaan will probably have plenty of other stuff to do anyways.

Sombre April 3rd, 2008 09:32 AM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
Work is veeery slow because I'm so busy right now. So don't hold your breath for this one. I think I may be able to work on it during lunch break at work though, which would give me enough time to do some code and a little graphical stuff each day.

Sombre April 6th, 2008 01:37 PM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
1 Attachment(s)
Here's a Saurus preview pic to wet your whistles/pants/lizards.


Not 100% finished but nearly.

I decided to give all obsinite weapons the magic tag and +1 att to make up for the underwhelming saurus attack stat I'm going with. Thus the Obsinite sword is 1 att 0 def len 3 dmg 7. Pretty nice piece of kit. The obsinite spear is len 4 att 1 def 0 dmg 4 and costs less in resources.

DigitalSin April 7th, 2008 04:47 AM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
Sombre. That is some absolutely epic art.

Amhazair April 7th, 2008 06:45 AM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen

DigitalSin said:
Sombre. That is some absolutely epic art.

Amen to that.

Sombre April 7th, 2008 08:42 AM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
I should have a skink graphic done by the end of today. They seem a little bit big at the moment (as does the saurus in fact, for a size 2) but skinks in warhammer do seem to be larger than goblins, smaller than humans. That actually gives me quite a few units:

Saurus Warrior (sword)
Saurus Warrior (shield)
Skink (blowpipe)
Skink Archer (poison arrows)
Skink Skirmisher (jav + shield)
Skink Cohort (shield + spear)

The tricky graphics will be the big dinosaurs and the Slann, but overall Lizardmen have a lot less stuff than, say, skaven. Also many of their units are re-equips or recolours of other ones. Sacred spawnings for instance just get different coloured markings, while temple guard are just Saurus with bone helmets and a little bit more decorative gold and stuff.

Glad you like the Saurus so far.

DigitalSin April 7th, 2008 09:09 AM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
Really, that looks almost like you've taken a picture.

Sombre April 7th, 2008 09:19 AM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
I like it too, but more and more I'm thinking I'll need to decrease the size. I just put it next to an Ogre and it's damn near as big.

I'll shave off a few pixels and repost it. It'll still be big for a size 2, but hopefully a bit more reasonable.

Sombre April 7th, 2008 09:28 AM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
1 Attachment(s)
Ok here's the slightly smaller saurus next to a size 3 ogre and a size 4 ogre tyrant.


He's still a very large size 2, but I think a bit better now. Shame he looks ever so slightly less impressive :[

Edratman April 7th, 2008 10:04 AM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
Sombre, your graphics are stunning.

DigitalSin April 8th, 2008 07:56 AM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
Yeah, from the little I know about Warhammer that looks about right. Don't sweat it anyway, I seem to recall them being described as large humans.

Sombre April 8th, 2008 09:57 AM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
I've finished the skink. I'll upload tonight.

Tomorrow I'll start on a salamander or cold one I think. Both should be relatively straightforward. The salamander is practically a fire drake anyway.

Sombre April 8th, 2008 05:25 PM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
1 Attachment(s)
Skinky skink.


Kristoffer O April 8th, 2008 06:21 PM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen

DigitalSin April 9th, 2008 05:19 AM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
...You are so damn talented.

Sombre April 9th, 2008 04:33 PM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
1 Attachment(s)
Thanks. I don't think I'm that good. Just good source material and plenty of practice doing dom3 sprites.

Now KO, he's got actual talent.

Salamander ho!


DigitalSin April 10th, 2008 08:56 AM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
Haha, think all you want, it won't change my opinion. My brother does the same thing all the time.

llamabeast April 10th, 2008 09:01 AM

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen
Wow, the salamander is _really_ nice!

Sombre April 10th, 2008 05:41 PM

Saurus Cavalry!
1 Attachment(s)
Saurus Cavalry!


Again, probably not 100% finished. The cold one doesn't look quite right somehow. The stats on these guys are scary though.

llamabeast April 10th, 2008 08:08 PM

Re: Saurus Cavalry!
Is the saurus perhaps a bit far back on the cold one's back?

Wauthan April 10th, 2008 08:23 PM

Re: Saurus Cavalry!
Awesome sprite-fu Sombre. Looks like you're shaping up for yet another box office smash hit.

Zeldor April 10th, 2008 08:35 PM

Re: Saurus Cavalry!
Anyone else also thinks it is Ichtyid sitting on the tail of that green something?

Sombre April 10th, 2008 08:43 PM

Re: Saurus Cavalry!
They're like that on the model. I think it might be to get the model to stand properly and bear its own weight. There is a saddle involved though.

I could shift him forward a bit no problem. I'll have another look later and maybe change it.

Sombre April 11th, 2008 04:57 PM

Re: Saurus Cavalry!
1 Attachment(s)
Chameleon skink!


He's such a cutie. Nasty poison weapon though.

Endoperez April 12th, 2008 08:11 AM

Re: Saurus Cavalry!
1 Attachment(s)
Nothing to see here, move along...

Sombre April 12th, 2008 08:58 AM

Re: Saurus Cavalry!
I've changed the Chameleon slightly to give him more of a jaw, which differentiates him from the regular skinks a bit more. It's similar to what Endo did. I can't be bothered to upload because it's such a minor change.

Next units will be,.... some different sacred spawnings I think. So basically recolours of saurus and skinks. They will all be summons apart from the red crested skinks who are buildable. All non sotek sacred spawnings will have the sacred tag. If you are going to go heavily for a sotek themed nation then you probably won't want a heavy bless, because Sotek = heretic in the version I'm doing. You'll get fun blood summons and spells though.

Sombre April 12th, 2008 04:32 PM

Sacred spawnings
1 Attachment(s)
The sacred spawnings.


Sombre April 14th, 2008 10:12 AM

Re: Sacred spawnings
Sotek = hig berserk, poison immune, not sacred
Tzunki = amphibious, coldres, sacred
Tlazotl = morale 30, higher mr, sacred
Tepok = mr 17, possibly something else, sacred
Chotec = fire immune, elevated AP, sacred
Quetzl = elevated prot, sacred
Huanchi = stealth, survivals, mapmove 3, sacred

Red Crested skinks are not sacred, have minor berserk and better fighting stats than regular skink, plus better morale (slightly).

Saulot April 15th, 2008 03:34 AM

Re: Sacred spawnings
The lizards look quite nice. I particularly like the irregular shield shape.

Sombre April 15th, 2008 07:19 PM

Re: Sacred spawnings
1 Attachment(s)
Skink cavalry and temple guard. Bit plain these.


DigitalSin April 15th, 2008 09:22 PM

Re: Sacred spawnings
Mad. Keep up the good work Sombre, I may just start to idolize you.

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