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CBM - MA Races Rankings
Hello guys, I'm kinda new to the forums, so first of all hi to everyone. This thread is dedicated to a project that -everyone- can join to help. Basically the goal is simple: to create a list of nations ordered by strength from top to bottom. I already talked with some of the "experts" ;) on IRC and we came up with this current, tentative list for MA. (other ages will follow later) The list was made with CBM in mind. I'll get to a vanilla version of this list (which should be, in any case, somewhat similar) only once this CBM list will have settled a bit. The list is far from perfect, but it's aim is not to be "perfect", it can't be and never will. Instead, it's just made to be an helpful tool, both for beginners (they even in this current very "beta" stage can see at a glance if a race is MUCH better than another) and for experts (handicap systems/team games), but we need the list to settle on a much larger input before we can say "ok this list is somewhat reliable" and this is why I decided to open a thread on it. The numbers you see are at the current state probably based off a single guy opinion, so they are "obviously" not averaged, not tested, etc. but I've been on the Internet enough to know that people are prone to discuss more over data (even random data) than over blank cells ;) When you see three identical numbers for a race, they're probably just placeholders: suggest anything even remotely more accurate. For MA, which is the scope of this thread, we decided that Ermor was the nation of reference, having the "best" early, middle and endgame. Ashdod is the only exception, but since as of now it's just too powerful, it'll be treated as such, with values over 100%. So Ermor gets 100% in the 3 phases of a game. It has been somewhat decided that Early game: Rush strategy/Efficiency in expansion in Turns 1-12(or more, if map is very large) Midgame: Everything in between Endgame: Advanced summons and/or end game tactics at a nation disposal The "exp" tag means that to unleash the full potential of that race, an expert player is needed. How can you help? It's easy and you can help however you want, I only ask that you try and be honest in what you say, after all, there's no "right answer" so if you think a race is underrated or overrated, just drop a line, assuming you believe in what you say. I'll give you some examples: Man 70-40-25 It means you think that Man is good at the beginning, mediocre in the midgame and poor (but not downright terrible, that would be 10-0) in the endgame. If you can, please avoid comments like: Oceania is underrated (period. :D) Stuff like this doesn't really help much, because I won't know if you mean that it should be top tier or something. Of course, you don't -need- numbers in your post, just make sure to add whatever detail you consider relevant to your suggestion. If you agree with something someone else said, that is good feedback too. I'll eventually update this message based on comments I receive. Note: I acknowledge something like this might have been tried in the past, but I couldn't find it in the forums and in any case I thought: whatever. (I'm that deep) :D Code:
Early Mid Latehttp://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...7Q&output=html |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
Ok, normally I don't think HoF wins or lack thereof are necessarily indicative of anything. (Small sample size, players choosing or avoiding nations based on their presumed strength so some nations have a larger number of chances than others) But MA Vanheim is not avoided as a weak nation and yet it still has an abysmal number of wins.
Looking at what it has, its got great raiders, decent troops, and decent (early) midgame magic options (TS spam). But that's all it has. Its blood is limited, and it has no cheap hunters nor efficient hunters, meaning blood is at best a sideline for it. Its certainly not going to win the race to endgame blood summons against a real blood power. And that's the only endgame they have. Now, if you take a bless for your sacreds you rate that 100 early game. But if you take a bless for your thugs you'll have a better midgame by far. Those sacreds are mostly irrelevant by midgame since (iirc) they're cap only, and thus really limited in number. thug blessing, otoh, just uses skinshifters, which are still pretty awesome. So sacred blessing strat probably rates 100 50 20 Thug blessing rates 80 80 20 |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
90% of those numbers are flawed and totally unrealistic and untrue. Someone who made it has probably never played MP and loves to read K's posts.
Anyway - you just cannot give same amount of points to a nation that is weaker than other in same game phase. |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
What exactly do you find so unrealistic, and why? Just curious.
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Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
Pretty much every nation.
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Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
Would be interesting to hear the reasons why Pangaea has a flat 60 in all phases, and why Eriu has 25 in early stages. Sounds like somebody who had no clue rolled some dice and came up with those...
IMO Pangaea is amongst the strongest nations in early and mid phases (a combo of tramplers and berserks (with the option to take manikin against any big&scary hostiles) in early game, Mass Protection and the very nice nature summons make it strong in mid game. A "60" is prolly a good number for late game, as MA Pan has access to Death (all the way to Tartarians) even though it doesn't have anything against MindHunt spams. 100-80-60 maybe Eriu having a 25 in early game just is so wrong. The Firbolg together with False Fetter spamming mages will rip apart anything in the early game. While 25 for early game is waaaaaaay too low for Eriu, the number 60 for mid game is quite generous (yes, they have nice raiding thugs, but raiding seldom wins the game for you). 80-50-0 might be more correct. Machaka has the numbers totally screwed up. They have a strong early game, a super strong mid game, and a non-existant end game. 25-75-60 is just so wrong in so many ways :) 100-120-0 would be at least in the correct ball-park. In all, I wonder who the experts have been for these numbers :) Seems like most of the other numbers too have been generated with the stetson theory :P |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
Jarkko-
Machaka: Machaka's early game is as good as Ermor's? Seriously? I don't buy it. Now, you can do two things as Machaka - you can bless your cap only sacreds, which might buy you a great early game but it'll suck later (limited availability because they're cap only and eat resources like crazy), or you can go without a bless and have a pretty poor early game. Midgame can't rate above 100 unless you're Ashdod. And I doubt anyone would say they dominate the mid game, so while I agree they're strongest here, they can't rate even 100, much less over 100. And they have (pretty good) death magic and thus national access to one endgame path. They must be better than '0'. A 0 for endgame implies no endgame magic options. I think it hilarious you find 60 for Pan appropriate because they have access to tarts, but Machaka rates a 0 to you when its death access is at least as good. Eriu: Compared to what other nations are fielding, firbolg are *not that good*. They're pretty bad actually. To pretend otherwise is just crazy. Oceania's icthycentaurs, for example, are vastly superior, and most people wouldn't rate Oceania as having an amazing early game. Someone has to rate near the bottom. This is a comparative scale, not an absolute scale. Now, it may be Eriu should outrank Agartha and Atlantis in the early game, but that's a matter of reducing Agartha/Atlantis or improving Eriu's ranking slightly, not jumping them way up. We aren't going to squeeze most nations into the 80-100 range. |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
Why does Bandar Log have 100 for endgame? This is unrealistic and probably the score was given before the clam nerf. Marignon's 90 is also strange, etc.
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Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
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I am willing to take Ermor on in midgame any time as Machaka, and I'll laugh myself silly at their puny attempts. Quote:
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Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
I have fought an early war against Eriu, they died to massed principes pretty handily.
I suppose if false fetters are so amazing then Man, with actually good troops, rates even better at early game than listed. And TC. And everyone else with air magic - because all of them have better troops than Eriu. Even Caelums troops are better than firbolg. Machaka: Spiders vs. S9W9 SVs backed up by longdead horsemen - betting SVs win that on equal gold, not to mention are much easier to mass. Spiders vs. F9W9 Eagle Warriors - clear victor eagle warriors. Its not even close. Those are what I'd consider the gold standard for early game in MA. |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
I know not every nation can be a powerhouse in every time, but I fail to see how Pythiums power curve falls off in the late game... I mean MAYBE if you wait until everyone else's late game, but Pythium ramps up so fast... maybe I'm just confused, and 90 is not bad...
And whats with the nations with power troops being low in early game? Ulm, Oceana, Pangea, Machaka? How is Ulm weak in the early game? Weak as in if it rushes it'll get clockwork horrors out in large numbers first at the end of early game? I seriously have no idea how it can be bottom tier early game... your first troops can take almost anything... Oceana has recruitable everywhere recuperating light cavalry with 22 hps. They rock hard when you get em, and get better with time. Pangea, see Oceana. These experienced units are hard to remote evo away, and seem to last quite into later game, especially with buffs. OK, so that's probably too much for someone who really hasn't played much MP, but that's my initial reaction. |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
... Who the hell were those "experts" you spoke to ...? Pythium having a lower rank than Ermor?? Rlyeh having a weak early game? Mictlan having a subpar endgame??
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Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
I am not commenting here, because I'd have to make my own list from scratch, it's too much work. And it does not really matter much.
I can partly agree on Machaka vs Ermor - spiders own vestals. Webs to be more precise. |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
KissBlade: I'm not enough of an expert to comment on most of the lategame rankings, but this is a CBM ranking list. Clams have been removed in the latest version.
In general, remember this whole thread was a request for comments, not the definitive ratings. He explicitly stated that many rankings were supplied to start discussion. I assume he was looking for suggested rankings with support rather than just general attacks on the initial list. Where would you put those nations? |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
I still think Pythium is the strongest overall MA nation. No matter what you set out to do ritually, you end up with powerful if incidental communed combat spells. Hydras, assassin, legionaires, AND emeral guards? That's frickin ridiculous. With the centrality of the pearl and the extra gem... You've got to be kidding me. Oh, and you can summon Seraphs too...
Or maybe I'm just kidding. What they really need is elephants to even be competitive. And they don't have a thug, unless you count 3 emerald lords with a couple item each or some powerful magery. I feel as if not giving them a gifts from heaven caster is also a horrible shame. |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
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*When* did you see Eriu field massed firbolgs supported by airmages? What game was that in? The Eriu I see from game to game field Daine Sidhes and get steamrolled, and people wonder why. Man fields their HP7 Prot0 old age crones to cast false fetters? Right yeah, I would like to see that :rolleyes: Quote:
F9W9 Eagle warriors vs Fire Drakes, let me snigger a bit if you think the feathery fellows stand a chance in the flames of hell (sic!). If it is the very early game, when the fire drakes are not available yet, then yes Eagle warriors would be a problem for Machaka, but that would be quite a horrible map to play on if you get overrun by Mictlan on turn 3 (it can happen though, which would truly suck no matter which nation you were playing). |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
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And aren't they subject to twist fate? I mean, I haven't seen the combat, but I can't imagine you'd get many webs to stick against a SV at anywhere near equal gold. (And this is assuming the Ermor player lets you shoot at the SVs instead of making you blow your webbing on longdead horsemen). |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
FYI: Spiders get 4ammo range8 webs each.
Javelins kill Jaguar warriors just fine. Legionaires are a superior defensive, though not offensive, option. Emerald guards won't die very fast in front while the velites throw them. Just my experience. |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
sorry.
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Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
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Heck, most of the time I see Eriu load up on sloth. Mothers can also be A2, fwiw. But Man doesn't even need false fetters to have a pretty decent early game. But it certainly could use them if it entered a really early war. Quote:
Ermor can easily field an army of 20+SVs with 30+ longdead horsemen by turn 5 and still have an expansion army or two attacking indies. That's not even hard, since they're kicking out ~10SVs/trn and reanimating starting on turn 2. On turn 5 you might have conjuration 1. Funny thing about fire darts - they make a precision roll against SV defense, assuming they even hit a relevant square. W9S9 SVs, lets think about that for a moment. Def20 before xp stars. What's your precision again? 15 iff you buffed eagle eyes? (If you even have eagle eyes yet, since apparently you're rushing conjuration for those fire drakes in year 1) And if by some miracle you do hit a SV, twist fate saves them the first time, and fire darts *might* kill a SV if it scores a second hit on the same one. Of course, by that time your position is getting swarmed by quickened SVs. Funny thing about shadow bolts - they aren't range 100. They aren't even range 50. Why would ermor place its 'non-undead commander' closer than the backfield? Similarly, early game, you don't have firedrakes against Mictlan's EWs. |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
Emerald guards? Never saw them used, probably because they have mapmove 1.
Assasins are a very niche unit, rarely used. And I wonder how effective Seraphs can be in endgame in light of clam nerf. Probably if you cast Arcane Nexus, but I do not see how they can be fielded in numbers even remotely comparable to Tartarians otherwise. |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
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Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
squirrellord: I would just hire the low resource spiders against undead (if I was going to hire spiders), so, if the armies were comprable production, you'd have a couple ranks, but, really, hoplites and jav warriors are probably a better choice along with a couple priests.
Festin: I've used that setup to efficiently take indies. Sure the MM sucks but the unit has 16 defense skill and shield and makes an excellent wall. Keep the velites from dying so fast, which ultimately seems to get me a longer overall MM. They'll stop a cavalry charge, it isn't healthy for them, but they'll do it... I ussually let some velites die to the cavalry, and then put the guards in. And if you mix them in with standards 10/1 or 5/1, they won't break unless they take catastrophic losses. Sometimes you'll wonder why you sent them in configured like that... |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
It's fine, but I think the same thing can be accomplished with just principes. They throw javelins like velites, they are heavy infantry only slightly worse than emerald guards, and they have mapmove 2. Add standards, and you have one of the nicest generic infantry armies in the game.
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Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
Wait, you use Velites AND Principes right? I pretty much insist that the cheapness of Velites makes them awesome. They're my most hired early legionaire unit. Late I drop some standards in all my provinces to beef up the defenses.
It might be that you are right though, I ussually pick the emerald guard because I've had good luck with their durability, especially getting them to hirer experience levels without wounds. Assassins have a nice precision and are nice to carry x-bows. Adding a few to a force is similar to sending a mage. If you're willing to make a castle to hire assassins, then it frees up some time to research construction. |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
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On turn 5 you may very well have 20+ vestals with 30+ longdead horsemen. I'll have 50+ brown spiders against them (and if I forgoe recuiting mages, lots more spiders instead). You'll have to kill them twice, and first time you kill them they start to web you in melee. Enjoy your defenseless vestals. Btw. Since when has ranged damage had to go through defenses? Shield parry is the only thing affecting wether a missile hits or not. Assuming you have three vestals per square, the rolls to compared (assuming fire darts vs vestals) are DRN + 6 + 2 vs 2 + DRN + 8. That is a 30% chance to hit a vestal in the square. One hit = one death. There are lots of fire darts flying even from one caster. Sure, they might miss the squre, but when the range is short that is not an issue (even if the darts deviate, they won't deviate that far). |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
No, I only use principes. Velites tend to die a lot, and principes can do everything velites can do, but better. I just don't like light infantry that takes losses and has to be resupplied with fresh troops every other turn.
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Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
You should put the Velites back farther... sure, A few will still die, but you can make a hoarde of em. If lots are dying you don't have enough principes to hold the line.
They're your archers, only Javs do better damage. If you'd used part velites, your army would be considerably larger, and its jav damage would go way up. Resulting in overall greater endurance. |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
Early Mid Late
Here's my opinion with notes. - indicates I haven't played that nation recently enough to comment. Ashdod - - - Ermor 80 80 70 Weak non cap mages, poor magic diversity Jotunheim 90 100 100 Giants + B + D + S Pythium 100 100 100 Good troops, mages & national summons R'lyeh 50 125 150 Awesome recruit anywhere mages + water defense. Great chaff. Shinuyama 70 90 80 Lack of shields can be a problem, no astral or blood Marignon 90 60 70 Weak magic diversity, but angels help end game Vanheim 100 100 100 Great melee, thugs, combat magic, B+A covers most of the S lack Mictlan 80 80 80 A bit one dimensional, not as flexible as some T'ien Chi 70 90 100 Very strong research and great magic diversity C'tis - - - Pangaea 80 80 60 Good alteration carries through mid game, lack of diversity hurts Arcoscephale 60 70 60 Good combat & ritual mages, struggle with mobility Abysia 70 60 80 Make it through midgame and blood kicks in good Caelum - - - Bandar Log 25 45 80 Takes a lot of work to unlock potential Machaka - - - Man - - - Eriu 30 100 0 Raiders + air evo strong midgame, struggles once countered Ulm 50 70 60 Good recruit anywhere combat mages, struggles with mobility Oceania 50 20 0 Nowhere to go with research Atlantis 20 50 60 Recruit anywhere Kings, teleport, acid storm Agartha 10 60 40 Good recruit anywhere combat mages + good blockers |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
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You still have to blow through twist fate, and I'm really not convinced 1 hit = 1 kill after the twist fate goes down. Fire darts doesn't do much damage. Also, lets be realistic, how much do brown spiders cost? And its not like you know Ermor is going to be coming for you turn 1 either, so you've been doing whatever you were going to be doing for expansion. Assuming players are precognostic is a little much. |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
I can understand giving Pythium straight 100s. I mean, they have 7HoF wins listed in the first post, and probably more that haven't been added yet.
I can't understand giving Vanheim straight 100s. It just doesn't fit the data. They have no wins reported in the HoF thread's first post, and only a single win in those since it was last updated. If it was so amazing, you'd think it would be dominating the HoF like Pythium is. I mean, I certainly don't think the HoF is a sufficient sample to tell when a nation is really bad. But there is a significant difference between Pythium's performance and Vanheims. They simply can't be equally good at all phases of the game - Vanheim must be significantly worse somewhere. So all these 'Vanheim is awesome' rankings seem to be based on nothing. |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
When does early game end? Maybe that is what I'm missing.
Here, I'll do 2: Ulm 120 50 10 If you start near Ulm and he send knights up in your shizzle it's really going to suck, and if you're Ulm you can count on sending knights up in his shizzle really sucking for him. Your mages rock and each can make themselves a squad of clockwork horrors as soon as its reasearched. To me, they, as a nation, don't go anywhere, and they lean heavily on your pretender to coddle their units, despite their oft tauted forge bonus. They fall off end-game without a doubt. All in all, there are a lot of things I'd rather have on my border turn 3 than black plates. |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
Ma mictlan doesn't really do blood that well. It's also not the mictlan people speak of as an early rush power. I used to think that the reputation of jaguar warriors was overblown too... then I faced them in mp for the first time and they wrecked a huge army of mine, and I realized that it wasn't overblown at all.
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Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
Quick comparison for you BigDaddy. Try equal gold F9W9 jags vs. black knights, see how you feel about mictlan vs. ulm's early games afterwards.
(And equal gold is probably unfair to the jags, since they're so much easier to mass). MA Mictlan can use jags in the early game just fine. But its recruit anywhere sacred is eagle warriors, which is also pretty brutal. |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
Oops, I edited my post, forgot we were doing MA Mictlan. MA is pretty much bless mictlan. Baalz is right, they are terribly inflexible. Their blood nations are inflexible enough. I don't really like MA Mictlan. They are, however, tough, and it is good old Mict in that you more or less know what they'll do, but how do stop em?
I'd use arbalasts and black knights, and probably some smiths. They just have suck protection. The whole key to killing jags is to hit them two times, so when fighting jags, use more units. The flail guys would be OK, I suppose, but I'd prolly use smiths.. Oh, yes, and guardians. Don't overlook guardians. Yes, I would spend it all on guardians and see what happens. Or maybe half arbalasts... Oh, I can't decide! I could also go with 2.5 short bows per jag or 4 slings... maybe mix it ups with slings and guardians would get me the most startling damage. On the other hand, arbalasts would stand up longer to eagle warriors. Sure, you can give me less units cause of the resource req. But not too much less as I'll take P and you'll prolly take S. I've had my jags killed before. I could probably win with half as much or less spent just on guardians. I'd have to try that out. |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
I'd use Guardians and Sappers, backed up with some Smiths to earth meld to slow them down. And I'd get slaughtered, unless I'm underestimating the Guardians special abilities. I don't think so. They're better against sacred thugs or heavies.
Anyway, you'll have trouble massing enough to equal them, even with Prod-3 and Ulm's resource bonus. Especially since Guardians and Sappers aren't what you need for expansion. |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
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Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
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I think calling MA Ulm weak at the early game is silly. I could spend the bulk of that money on PD and probably have excellent results against them. Probably enough that taking me out would be out of the equation. Archers rail jags, and armored crap kills eagles. Arbalasts are both and Mictlan could find an easier target. Like mid-game MA Ulm. Correction from earlier post: Emerald guard has 15 defense and 17 protection. Principe has 16 defense and 12 protection. The differences are pretty staggering actually, the guard appears to be a much more robust experienced soldier, but costs a whole gold more upkeep. |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
Arbalests fire every 3 rds. They get one shot at jags or Eagles, at extreme range, when they've reloaded they'll be in melee or firing into it. The great thing about Arbalests is that they're one of the few things that can easily hurt your own heavies. Regular Xbows hurt jags badly enough, but you'd probably be better off with indy shortbows. Arbalests are good for heavy sacreds or some thugs.
F9W9 jags or eagles will slaughter your heavies with multiple armor piercing attacks. And you won't massively outnumber them because you're resource limited. |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
I think somebody did tests using Guardians vs Jags after Ulm was boosted in vanilla, and found that guardians kill Jags reliably. But I may be mistaken.
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Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
Obviously with 3 attacks per 2 area or whatever average jags end up with, and a Fire bless these sacreds are going to hit a lot. But Ulms units have protection 20, and 6ap is not great against that, in fact most hits it won't do any damage at all. A death bless would be much more effective. Banefire blessing is the shizzle too. I think water is overestimated for quickness, because, obviously both fire and death double your attacks... whereas water only increases them 50%. It does keep them out of midfield taking arrows though.
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Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
Am I the only one who thinks MA Mictlan cannot possibly be mediocre late game with flying recruitable astral mages who are also sacred and blessable? Also eagle warriors do rock.
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Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
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Also, fire & death blessings don't actually double your attacks. They add additional attacks which (depending on a lot of factors) might or might not be as useful as the original attacks. As one example, F9 blessing won't help your Jags kill Abysians.... |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
I think it's funny that Mictlan is susceptible to slingers until it gets (mass) protect.
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Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
Just a quick note to all:
I read all the comments so far and I updated the list to reflect what I read. Ermor is not 100 100 100 anymore due to more than 1 person pointing out pythium strength. Other various changes. If you comment from now on PLEASE RECHECK THE LIST, thanks. :) |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
I'd kick Vanheim up past 100 for early game, Vans are just about impossible to kill in the early game and you can't invade them very well, because you can't see the Vans. Fighting Vanheim is a huge pain in the butt, and even if the Vans don't do that much damage. They're definitely over 100 in the early game. I'd say 120, maybe more. If there is someone who can crush you early in the game without taking many losses, it's ussually Vanheim.
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Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
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Also, isn't all the bickering about how each kind of rush can be countered by other early troops meaningless? Any strategy, when predicted, can be countered by a selection of research, mages, and troops. The player-player interactions in the early game should probably not greatly influence such a ranking because it's so dependent on circumstance. Expansion efficiency is far more suited to a relatively-unbiased measurement for early game. |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
I don't really like a numerical value so I would rank via letters, S being highest, D behind lowest.
Early Mid Late Ashdod B S A <= this is incorrect. Ashdod's main strength is it's mid and late game. It has a very good early game but recruitable SC/thug chassis really come into it's own mid game and late game summons are ridiculous by Ashdod. Pythium A A A <= Pythium is likely the best all around MA nation. Jotunheim A B A <= Jotun occasionally has trouble midgame before gyjjas really come online and when it's giants don't work well enough. Ermor A A A <= Ermor has no real flaws when played well. R'lyeh B S A <= Rlyeh's early game is actually quite solid between it's troopline. If played properly (aka GO ON LAND ASAP) Rlyeh is easily one of the strongest MA nations with a scarier mid game than Pythium with water control. Vanheim A A A Baalz has addressed most of what makes vanheim good. They are Eriu version 1293018236899.0 Shinuyama B S A Above average troopline and an archer nation with only slight weaknesses to heavy rush. Once mages come online, Shinuyama gets running (often with the game if done well) only slowing down once hitting late game and other late game nations can tie up. Mictlan A A A EAgle Warriors. Flying sacred mages. Astral access. Enough said. T'ien Chi B B B Above average in most categories but nothing will stand out about them. Requires quite a bit of player ability to really make them good. Marignon A B B Great early game. Good mages but old age and fairly predictable mid to late game hampers it. Pangaea S A B Anyone who's played a GOOD pan will know about this. Abysia A A A One of the best MA blood nations. Severely underestimated. C'tis C A B C'tis actually has a very good early game. However, it gets a low rating for one main reason. Players HATE MA C'tis dominion and often tries to contain you or outright wipe you out. Midgame C'tis is fearsome with relief spam and death magic. Natural tart trees is win too. Arcoscephale B B B They're much like TC with more strength early game due to priestess healing your combat pretender. However it's not enough to merit them an A. Caelum A A C Mammoth and temple guards for early game is the well known Caelum combo. One of the strongest midgame nations due to raiding, mage power, etc. Unfortunately, their late game requires a lot of forward planning as their paths aren't spectacular for it. Arguably a B in late game if mid game is good enough. Another reason why these rankings are so tough. Bandar Log B C A Ethereal ELEPHANTS??? Unfortunately, Bandar log is rather vulnerable right after the expansion phase and pre their mages really getting ready. Bandar PD is joked about but honestly, it isnt' too great. At the same time, they're not amazing raiders either despite having stealthed archers since those don't do too well against most MA PD's. Once past that stage, their astral access is obviously a plus. Machaka B A B No idea why Machaka is underestimated. It's early game is decent and it's midgame is spectacular. Their late game isn't bad either since they have nature, death and earth access. Ulm B C C Ulm's main problem is it's early to midgame is an awful transition. And from midgame to late game is a sluggish transition as well. It's not unplayable but you really have to play well and have a rainbow pretender. Man B B C They're like Ulm but has a better transition to midgame. Old age cripples them for late game UNLESS you manage to take advantage of nature for Gift of health and keep it. Eriu A S C Most of Eriu is already mentioned. The main problem is they need something beyond making a paper empire for late game. Nature gives them better midgame than Van but Van's dwarves >>> Eriu later on Atlantis C A B Thuggable kings but they need to get lucky early game. The other ocean power trumps them though spearmen flood isn't an awful strat. Midgame they're in water and if they can keep it, they'll have a decent late as well. Oceania A C D Clam nerf destroyed this nation. Hope you enjoy kythnid flooding. If they can keep waters, they'll be decent late game but too bad they WILL get destroyed by Rlyeh of equal calibur. Agartha C A B Argatha would've got a D for early game except for one reason. Risen Oracle. Possibly the best SC chassis in cbm may allow them to get lucky. Once it gets GoR Umbrals, MA Argatha is quite good. Abuse summons for a sturdy late game. Honestly, as you can see, I think most nations have some hope. It's very difficult to rank how well a nation holds from phase to phase because how it does from an earlier phase drastically effects it's later phases. |
Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
Totally off topic: Why is S rank above A rank in JRPGs? I've always wondered this. Does it stand for something?
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Re: CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!
I think kissblade just wanted to make the whole thing even more confusing by using letters instead of numbers which have the same effect
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