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-   -   MBT's (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45260)

FASTBOAT TOUGH January 3rd, 2022 10:29 PM

Re: MBT's
 
Well, I should address the last post first, those dates are good as posted for now and I concur with them. The German LEOPARD 2A7V is still going through the OPEVAL process at this time. Going back to 2018 from my files.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/dece...o_hungary.html
https://milmag.pl/en/assembly-of-hun...pard-2a4-mbts/
https://www.armyrecognition.com/germ...ions_data.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...n_germany.html
https://militaryleak.com/2020/07/30/...ks-to-hungary/
(AGAIN, FIRST TANK delivered.)
https://defence24.com/hungarian-leop...-cost-analysis
(Note the articles above describe them as the LEOPARD 2A7+.)


A couple of the above were posted, however, since they don't have them, I'm not as concerned about posting much on them.

But I see FROM THE ABOVE POST, it looks like they have them and we're already changing dates. It should also be clear now that HUNGARY is NOT getting the LEOPARD 2A7V. LEOPARD 2A7+ is simply an improved 2A7.

NORWAY: From my last the next day this, never mind here's what I got...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...tle_tanks.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/weap...gian_army.html
(A TANK-PROTOTYPE) (Also whether it's the K2NO or LEOPARD 2A7, it's expected they'll be fielded SOMETIME in 2025.)


THAILAND: This is a "preemptive strike", before someone else sees this and determines that Thailand has retired their M-41A3 tanks. Only this unit in the article title has. From the ref.-
"The Royal Thai Army’s 6th Cavalry Regiment, 3rd Cavalry Brigade, now operates the Chinese-made NORINCO VT4 main battle tank. The cavalry battalion, which originally operated the M41A3, has now switched to other vehicles. The 8th Cavalry Battalion. 3rd Infantry Brigade, received the M48A5 tanks from the 2nd Cavalry Battalion, 2nd Infantry Brigade, the King's Guard, that has received T-84 Oplot-T main battle tanks.

At present, it is understood that the last tank cavalry battalion that still uses the M41A3 light tank is the 4th Cavalry Battalion, 1st Royal Guard Brigade, Defense Studies writes."
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe..._commando.html

I'm only here to help, I have more data than you think and would be happy to provide it in the appropriate thread as needed.

Anyway, Grandson just today started College at SCAD in Savannah(!!), Daughter is here holding up well, so far, thank God for CINCLANTHOME! And I couldn't be prouder!! :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Pibwl January 4th, 2022 12:16 PM

Re: MBT's
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH (Post 851331)
The German LEOPARD 2A7V is still going through the OPEVAL process at this time. ...

A couple of the above were posted, however, since they don't have them, I'm not as concerned about posting much on them.

But I see FROM THE ABOVE POST, it looks like they have them and we're already changing dates.

Note, that what they already got is Leopard 2A4, named 2A4HU, not 2A7HU. They were delivered between 7-12/20 and entered service in 25th Mech Brigade.
2023 date for A7HU is according to Hungarian author's article from 2021 Polish magazine.

Speaking of Leopard 2:
Poland

26 Leopard 2A5, 31 Leopard 2PL - for several years (not known closer) Poland has some of DM-63A1 ammunition as well, so a performance (and name) of 120 mm Mesko gun (pen. 82) should be the same as appropriate German gun, but I don't know which one (120mm L44 WG01 with pen. 86?). "Mesko" is wrong name in this case, because Polish Mesko works produce only own PZ-531 APFSDS, but according to Polish military press, its performance is "probably similar" to basic DM33 round (surely not much better).

Leopard 2PL might receive a new icon, if you would bother - it has different turret (A4 with aditional armour) - https://www.konflikty.pl/aktualnosci...ia-do-wesolej/ picture:https://www.facebook.com/pancerni23/...9630339523031/

Regards
Michal

blazejos January 7th, 2022 10:08 AM

Re: MBT's
 
2 Attachment(s)
Some info about polish WZT (wóz zabezpieczenia technicznego) (vehicle of technical assistance) ARV for armoured units which existing in polish OOB they were widely exported and not used only by Poland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WZT

ARV

WZT-1 build on T-55 chassis since 1970 first polish indigenous engineering armoured vehicle whih have some roots in soviet BTS-2 never exported only used by Poland also as base chassis to build SP Neva SC

here nice photos of restored WZT-1 for Museum http://www.muzeumwp.pl/woz-zabezpiec...nego-wzt-1.php

<p><a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WZT-1.jpg#/media/File:WZT-1.jpg"><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/WZT-1.jpg" alt="WZT-1.jpg"></a><br>By Unknown author - &lt;a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.mon.gov.pl/pliki/Image/obrazki_do_stron/strona_76_wzt1.jpg"&gt;http://www.mon.gov.pl/pliki/Image/ob....jpg&lt;/a&gt;, <a href="//commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WZT-1.jpg" title="Attribute to Polish Ministry of National Defence">Attribution</a>, <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=3242019">Link</a></p>

WZT-2 improved variant this time build on T-55A chassis. Since 1973 in LWP. Poland have 600 of them now around 80.
Export customers
  • Iraq most destroyed in war 1991
  • India 196 vehicles
  • Yugoslavia late 80's still 16 vehicles used by Serbia probably was sold more vehicles.

<p><a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Polish_WZT-2.jpg#/media/File:Polish_WZT-2.jpg"><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Polish_WZT-2.jpg" alt="Polish WZT-2.jpg"></a><br>By &lt;a href="https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministerstwo_Obrony_Narodowej" class="extiw" title="pl:Ministerstwo Obrony Narodowej"&gt;Ministerstwo Obrony Narodowej&lt;/a&gt; - &lt;a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.mon.gov.pl/pliki/Image/obrazki_do_stron/strona_76_wzt2.jpg"&gt;http://www.mon.gov.pl/pliki/Image/ob....jpg&lt;/a&gt;, <a href="//commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Polish_WZT-2.jpg" title="Attribute to Polish Ministry of National Defence">Attribution</a>, <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=4489199">Link</a></p>

Nice photo of WZT-2 in LWP service
https://i.pinimg.com/600x315/91/0c/4...7c34fa5279.jpg

WZT-3/ WZT-3M introduced in 1988 on T-72M chassis after test in 1986-1988. around 20 produced for Poland used until 2003 when all polish vehicles were upgraded to WZT-3M more unified with PT-91.
  • Yugoslavia buy in 1989 40 vehicles from poland with license rights to production know as M-84AI locally
  • Croatia still have vehicles from former Yugo army
  • Serbia still have vehicles from former Yugo army
  • Kuwait they buy them together with Yugo tanks M-84A in 1989 they were from their production lines as M-84AI
  • India they buy 228 in years 2004-2007 WZT-3M and in year 2011 production rights for 204 vehicles so they have totally 556 WZT-3M

here manufacturer website with data https://bumar.gliwice.pl/en/strefa-militarna/o/wzt-3m

WZT-3M in polish units new camo
https://live.staticflickr.com/4837/4...e208890087.jpgWZT-3 armoured recovery vehicle by Adrian Kot, on Flickr

WZT-3M n polish units older camo
<p><a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:POL_Warsaw_WZT-3.jpg#/media/Plik:POL_Warsaw_WZT-3.jpg"><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/POL_Warsaw_WZT-3.jpg" alt="Ilustracja"></a><br>Autorstwa &lt;a href="//commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Hiuppo" title="User:Hiuppo"&gt;Hiuppo&lt;/a&gt; - &lt;span class="int-own-work" lang="pl"&gt;Praca własna&lt;/span&gt;, <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0" title="Creative Commons Attribution 3.0">CC BY 3.0</a>, <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=2588332">Link</a></p>


And here in Indian service
https://www.bharat-rakshak.com/ARMY/.../0612.jpg.html

WZT-4 this time based on PT-91 chassis
as for now not used by Poland only 6 vehicles in Malaysia
  • Malaysia they buy them together with PT-91 they have 6 vehicles of WZT-4
here manufacturer website with data https://bumar.gliwice.pl/en/strefa-militarna/o/wzt-4

https://bumar.gliwice.pl/storage/off...O3-cropped.jpg

WZT-5 also know as ARV 3 PL
here Bumar proposing vehicle based on Leopard chassis as for now not introduced to polish army is still in development but is possible tht will be a AVR vehicle for Polish Leopard units
https://bumar.gliwice.pl/en/strefa-militarna/o/wzt-5

https://bumar.gliwice.pl/storage/off...Mj-cropped.jpg


Engineering Vehicles

B-72 Klon
build in late 70's early 80's based on WZT-2 with special manipulation device and PWL-D boxes Mine-clearing line charge devices on both sides build only in small number for LWP but more just only a prototype used by Polish army.

source https://docplayer.pl/13981391-Osiagn...ieryjnego.html

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1641577944

MID (Maszyna inżynieryjno-drogowa) know also as Bizon-S
Production based this time on PT-91 parts and chassis is some why crossover of WZT-3M with WZT-4 with manipulation device. To Polish army introduced in 2000 in number 7 vehicles.

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1641578268

In 2003 also 3 vehicles introduced to Malaysian army together with PT-91 and WZT-4. Malaysia received modified version MID-M

In April 2021 also Polish army modernised their MID 5 vehicles to standard MID-M 4 was left in older version

source https://obrum.pl/modernizacja_mid/

Photo of MID-M for Polish army
https://obrum.pl/wp-content/uploads/...020-scaled.jpg

Pibwl January 7th, 2022 05:33 PM

Re: MBT's
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by blazejos (Post 851344)
MID (Maszyna inżynieryjno-drogowa) know also as Bizon-S
Production based this time on PT-91 parts and chassis is some why crossover of WZT-3M with WZT-4 with manipulation device. To Polish army introduced in 2000 in number 7 vehicles.

We already have the last one (#240).

FASTBOAT TOUGH January 18th, 2022 02:33 PM

Re: MBT's
 
I'll be brief, even for me!?! I've gotten a better picture on what's going on with the USMC MAIN ARMOR situation with this "representative" article. And I quote:

"At the time of the initial overhaul announcement, the Corps had 452 tanks at its disposal. By December 2020, 323 had been transferred to the Army. The *remaining tanks were scheduled for transfer by 2023, which included tanks in overseas storage and aboard maritime prepositioning ships, according to Marine Corps Systems Command."

By my count that currently leaves the USMC with 123 MBT's of these "survivors" it would be safe to assume that the FEP series are the ones still with us in the active/overseas storage/prepositioning ships. All others should have an END of DEC 2020

But "On the Fly" recommend the following changes for the FEP.

1. UNIT 464 leave as is for now.

2. UNITS 465 & 466 CHANGE/END to DEC 2023 IAW article vice DEC 2020//

3. Again all others should be gone by DEC 2020. This, however, DOES NOT include Engineering models.

If you want me to "comb" through the USMC OOB for "stragglers" you need to let me know.

Remember these service times publications get their information from the military component they represent for their active duty service members and DOD civilian workers that read these papers.
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/new...ing-its-armor/

I'm off to see the wizard!?! I just don't know about that "OZ" thing though!?! ;)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG January 18th, 2022 04:11 PM

Re: MBT's
 
846 is a "104 CS MBT " M1A1HC FEP-T and 847 is a 59 MBTM1A1HC FEP-T that exist to 12/2025

Those are the only ones that still extend the MBT and CS MBT formations to 12/2025 ( Mount a plow on the front and the are " Engineering vehicles")


464 is a UC 106 used in the "Urban MBT" formations

MarkSheppard January 27th, 2022 09:15 PM

Re: MBT's
 
For Ukraine...(OBAT 079)

Per Wikipedia
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._Ground_Forces)

Following heavy tank losses in the 2014 war + cold war, a lot of recapitalization of the Ukrainian tank fleet has been going on -- they were forced to bring back the T-80 due to losses in T-64s.

T-80BV M19 - T-80BV modernized with the same basic package as the T-64BV-2017 (Unit 030 T-64 Bulat M17). No official designation, but since the first unit was delivered in January 2019...I'm going with T-80BV M19. As of March 27, 2020 over 88 updated T-80BVs have up been delivered to the Ukrainian military since January 2019 at a rate of circa 6 tanks per month.

DRG January 28th, 2022 08:49 AM

Re: MBT's
 
Done. With new Icons

halstein January 29th, 2022 11:30 AM

Re: MBT's
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH (Post 851296)

ALSO, EGYPT wants to produce the K2. We already know (Or should.) that Poland passed on it in favor of the SEP V3, however, it made it to the final two (As the K2NO.) in NORWAY against the German LEO 2A7.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...ttle_tank.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

The K2 and Leo 2A7 are currently being tested in Norway, if our newspapers are to be believed. It has not been without discussion among Norway's top brass, as some of them considers tanks to be obsolete.

FASTBOAT TOUGH February 18th, 2022 02:17 PM

Re: MBT's
 
POLAND: The sale of the M1A2C (SEP V3) has apparently been approved pending sign off by the President. Don't get too excited, Para 5 will put that into perspective...
"Implementation of this proposed sale will require approximately (22) U.S. Government and (52) U.S. contractor representatives to travel to Poland for a duration of up to five years to support equipment fielding and training. "

1. These tanks will have to be built without adversely interfering with our current Army production requirements.

2. These same tanks will have to BE RESET to replace our more advanced electronics (FCS etc.) and have the DU armor removed
and replaced by either with an Applique or Ceramic armor package, normally of the foreign sales end user's discretion.

3. I would expect that a foreign sale M1A2C (SEP3) armor package would "fall in" about where the USA M1A2 SEP armor package is. Also TI/GSR 45 would make sense as well.

This will take time. We are HIGHLY unlikely to see Poland getting these fielded before DEC 2025.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...to_poland.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:


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