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-   -   Welcome Star Legacy Development Group! (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=44832)

Tim Brooks February 3rd, 2010 01:19 AM

Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Just wanted to be the first to post and say Welcome!

Really looking forward to Star Legacy. Maybe some newer members don't know it, but Shrapnel actually has a great history in space 4X gaming...


Kindest regards,

Combat Wombat February 3rd, 2010 01:35 AM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
This is in-house then like 82nd?

Tim Brooks February 3rd, 2010 07:26 AM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Hi Combat Wombat:

Nope. Not in house. The Star Legacy Development Group is doing this one. Maybe they will stop by and discuss their backgrounds some. Alot of quality SEIV modders are a part of this design and dev team.:D

Regards,

Ed Kolis February 3rd, 2010 10:59 AM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Yep, I'm on the programming team ;) I won't steal anyone else's thunder though... hey guys, c'mon out and announce yourselves! :D

Gandalf Parker February 3rd, 2010 11:16 AM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
SHOTGUN!
Ummm.... I mean calling first seat on beta team?
NDA already on file. :)

Gandalf Parker
--
Do not give me a powerful ship and a few stars with a few options.
Give me a Universe and unlimited options.

SamuraiProgrammer February 3rd, 2010 11:50 AM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Looking forward to watching this develop. Good Luck!

getter77 February 3rd, 2010 12:51 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
It'll be interesting to see how this shapes up. Visually then, I guess the closest thing for the style would be something akin to AI War?

Ed Kolis February 3rd, 2010 01:03 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
getter77, you're here too? Funny, there sure is a lot of overlap between people on the Angband forums and people who play 4X games...

Wydom@ker February 3rd, 2010 05:22 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
This sounds interesting, its been awhile since a really good 4x game was out, so I'll have to keep an eye on this one.

getter77 February 3rd, 2010 09:02 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Kolis (Post 729626)
getter77, you're here too? Funny, there sure is a lot of overlap between people on the Angband forums and people who play 4X games...

Heh, I try to be visible in all manner of places where the fine works are being undertaken. Besides, how else will I find interesting things to help come to fruition? :cool: Count me in as another entity that'd likely be up for beta testing down the line depending on how the details hash out.

Maybe I'll see you in my topic in the Scallywag board over here as I start to get the game revived up somewhere in 2010....at least after I finish my now ongoing work on the beta testing for Soldak Entertainment's latest game: Din's Curse.

Gandalf Parker February 3rd, 2010 09:51 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Oooh Scallywag. There is an example of giving the players a ton of tools then not much happened.
Id like to see that kicked up.

Alikiwi February 4th, 2010 02:58 AM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Well, being one working on it, I can only say it's getting very interesting, and some sample graphics I've seen look pretty good (and no I didn't do them). Lot's to sort out yet, but I think everyone will be pleased.
We'll try and throw out a few hints on its direction from time to time.

Xrati February 4th, 2010 12:06 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Well, I've already PM'd Tim and told him I'd be happy to be on the playtest group. :D

With that being said, let's start getting some of those hints out! And you know who I'm talking to!!! :doh:

Alikiwi February 4th, 2010 11:00 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
;) who? No, surely not! Ok, how about this (ssh it's classified), hopefully open ended ability possibilities, so not a finite list that limits what Modders can add to the game, but the ability to add any ability.
Vector based movement, and possibility of Traders who are AI only that add to the background storyline, but are also useful.
More if I get 'offical' clearance to drop a few more hints.. :happy:

MarkL February 5th, 2010 01:42 AM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Good to see another title in the works.

How about throwing us a few bones to mill over.

Has this one anything to do with the space title hinted at in the War Plan Pacific beta forum?

Cheers MarkL

Alikiwi February 5th, 2010 04:39 AM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
I haven't read that forum, but i can say with 99.9% certainty, no! This is a whole new game from the ground up, taking the best ideas of anything (relevant), and developing whole new ideas. You can check out the discussions over here > http://www.kenvsthecity.com/se45/
This is very much in the discussion stage, with prototype development, and testing new layouts, system views etc. It is very likely that the system view will be scrollable (is that a word?!) and zoomable :D

Xrati February 5th, 2010 11:58 AM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Quote:

system view will be scrollable (is that a word?!) and zoomable
They are now!!! :confused:

Thanks for leaking the top secret info! I'll report for you having to kill me now... :D

Alikiwi February 5th, 2010 05:06 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Thats a worry, how did you know I'd have to kill you for telling you top secret information? Ve have ways of makin you talk, before ve kill you of-course :-)

MarkL February 5th, 2010 06:41 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alikiwi (Post 730023)
I haven't read that forum, but i can say with 99.9% certainty, no! This is a whole new game from the ground up, taking the best ideas of anything (relevant), and developing whole new ideas. You can check out the discussions over here > http://www.kenvsthecity.com/se45/
This is very much in the discussion stage, with prototype development, and testing new layouts, system views etc. It is very likely that the system view will be scrollable (is that a word?!) and zoomable :D

Thanks for the link, to that site.

I like the idea of a "scrollable & zoomable" interface. For some reason (apart from activation to get patches) I could not get into "Sins of a Solar Empire" but I think the zoom to mouse pointer is an excellent idea that should be copied when ever possible. For me Sins has one of the better interfaces I have seen in a long while. But the tree on the left of the Sins screen could use a bit of work to be more user friendly.

I do not know if it is decided but I think 3D for space battles is really needed if you want a wide rather than very niche market.

I also like the idea of surface combat, a must I think.

This looks like something to keep an eye on, as I not found a game of this type that really suits me yet.

Cheers MarkL

Gandalf Parker February 5th, 2010 07:37 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Wouldnt 3D combat mean that modded add-on nations would hve to be done in 3D?
Everything has its pros and cons.

Alikiwi February 5th, 2010 08:48 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Unfortunately Gandalf is correct. The game will be in 2D although we are hoping to allow for 3D later, and perhaps 3D in portions such as an intro scene. However, if the whole game was 3D then Modding would be restricted to a very limited number of people I think.
One of the main aspects we want is for the game to be highly moddable by as many people as possible.

Gandalf Parker February 5th, 2010 09:09 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Thank you. Personally I feel thats part of where SEV went that made me thrilled you referred to this as SE4.5

Ed Kolis February 6th, 2010 01:10 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Yeah, speaking of "open-ended ability possibilities", I'm pretty excited about using Python as a scripting language for this game... yes, a REAL language that people actually know and use every day! ;)

One of the things I'm hoping to do with the Python scripting is to sort of unify the "data files" and the "scripting" aspects of modding... in my mind you could have small Python scripts embedded in a data file as formulas, and maybe even let formulas refer to other arbitrary data fields in the same record - e.g. instead of

Code:

<Tonnage>500 - 50 * Level</Cost>
<Cost>250 - 25 * Level</Cost>

you could have

Code:

<Tonnage>500 - 50 * Level</Cost>
<Cost>Tonnage / 2</Cost>

to reduce copy/paste errors... I'd just have to check for infinite reference loops and throw a parse error if that happens, instead of crashing the game! ;)

And yeah, on the topic of arbitrary abilities, what I'm hoping to do with abilities is have preset abilities that do stuff automatically, but then also a "Custom" ability which you can throw any data you want into, similar to the AI Tags in SE4/SE5, only you can throw any number of values into them, not just two, and then scripts could check for that ability and do stuff with it...

Take all of this with a grain of salt though, and moderators, feel free to edit this post if I went over the edge... I do have a Python scripting prototype, but not anything that parses formulas out of data files or checks for abilities yet... I just don't see either of those as too difficult given the tools available :)

edit: Speaking of editing, my XML tags got messed up... forum admins, why do they get removed even INSIDE the code tags??? And what is this "vote now" button on the post-editing interface, anyway?

Xrati February 6th, 2010 01:38 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
I'll bet you say that to all the geeks? :p

getter77 February 6th, 2010 02:59 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Python eh? You lot going with the land of 3.x onward or idling in the land of mid 2.something as Stardock has wound up deciding to do for Elemental while hoping some stuff gets caught up in the latter day Python?

Good to hear on the 2D aspect, after this current beta is successfully wrought I'm likely to invest in the small size Intuous4 tablet and throw gobs of time into the thing to aid in such dimensional endeavors.

Ed Kolis February 6th, 2010 04:10 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
2.6 probably... the changes in the 3.x series seem a bit... controversial ;) Not to mention that 2.6 is the version currently supported by IronPython (the .NET implementation of Python with which I've actually had success making a script prototype)

Louist February 6th, 2010 08:32 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Welcome! Mr Kolis I have enjoyed a number of your SE:IV mods, and I'll be waiting to see what SLDG will be creating.

Out of curiosity, what 4x game(s) have influenced the team the most? And are you just beginning initial design?

Also, I miss the old Kryten avatar. In my mind it was synonymous with your name :)

Edit: I posted without reading the last two pages. I have to say that the idea of a SE:IV.V has cemented my interest.

Alikiwi February 7th, 2010 01:34 AM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Louist said
Quote:

I have to say that the idea of a SE:IV.V has cemented my interest.
We aim to please! Ever played Imperium Galactica 2? :-)

Louist February 7th, 2010 02:03 AM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
I have to admit I somehow missed Imperium Galactica, though I've run through the usual suspects, of which my favorites were Stars!, SE: III & IV. If you can offer the customization and modification options in-line with SE, I'm already sold :)

Black_Knyght February 8th, 2010 05:16 AM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Can't wait to start the modeling for this. We're working on some excellent stuff here.

Edi February 8th, 2010 07:50 AM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
If you're looking for people for the beta, sign me up. I missed the entire SE series and I'd love to have a good 4x space game for a change.

EDIT: I also have NDA already on file and I can get a lot of things done if I get fired up about something, as the dom3 community can attest to. :D

Timstone February 8th, 2010 02:58 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Great to read that so many well known people have joined Shrappie in this fantastic initiative. :up:
I hope some kind of site will be up soon and will be refreshed more often that the site of Malfador (not trying to ruin the good reputation of The Maker :D).

KnightWhoSaysNi February 8th, 2010 03:32 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Hi folks. I read the press release and I really hope you can pull this off. To date, Master of Orion II from 1996 probably remains one of my all-time favourite PC games. Galactic Civ II was alright, but I felt that it had limitations. I've been waiting for another excellent ultra-addictive and fun 4X space strategy game for a really long time.

One thing I hope you strive for is the KISS rule when overseeing complexity. Some strategy games I've seen have a feel as if you're doing your taxes. A visual feel to things rather than reading a bunch of text helps too.

Regarding fleet combat, will it be turn based or real-time? If the latter, will be it like GCII where the AI takes over completely? Or will it have some player control with perhaps a useful Baldur's Gate style pause feature to issue orders? (that might be problematic in multi-player games though)

Anyways, I'll be following SG's development. Good luck!

Arralen February 9th, 2010 07:50 AM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Call me when there's something to test.
And maybe before that ;)

Alikiwi February 10th, 2010 02:42 AM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Combat will be turned based as it's a turn based game. In single player you will have tactical (you control), but also a strategic option to let the AI do it all for you, as will happen in a PBW game.
KISS, oh you mean keeping it simple (phew!), yes you will have the option to manage most of it, or let ministers do it for you. Some functions may be automatic by default with the option to do your own thing. For example basic building on planets will be automatic, but if you want to add something you can.
Traders will be AI only, and we hope to have rogue asteroids or meteors, and yes you will be able to target them if they are heading your way..... (sssh TMI):D

Gandalf Parker February 10th, 2010 12:56 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
PBW game? Do you mean PBEM game? Or are you planning on PBW being the official server?
But that does bring up a point that I was curious about. Will there be an effort to be abit more supportive to hosting sites?

Xrati February 10th, 2010 02:39 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
It's probably a good idea to limit the number of sites as too many can cause more problems then can be fixed in a short time.

Ed Kolis February 10th, 2010 03:29 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
We were discussing the possibility of having 2 separate programs (host and client) like you'd posted on the other forum, Gandalf... an intriguing idea that came out the other day in discussion was to include a dedicated server which you could run as, e.g. a tray icon... but that in itself would probably need to be separate from the host program itself, such that the host could be run manually (for PBEM or an OS that doesn't have "tray icons"), or from the GUI (in a single player game), or by a separate autohost (for PBW).

Arralen February 10th, 2010 06:51 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Actually, I've been pondering to do a sci-fi TBS on my own for quite some time, but I realised that I wouldn't get anywhere on my own, and the last bunch of folks that I talked to had basically the ressources (skills, webspace, etc.), but now it looks like most of them won't have any time to spare (one is going into business for himself, the other one got job in the gaming industry, etc. :rolleyes: )

So maybe I could help you out with some ideas, before I forget 'bout them :

"Architecture"

Have a "master" program with GUI, that lets the player
a) set up a game (settings like no. of players, AIs, etc.), and supplies the current "rules" file to all clients
b) admin the server (which is commandline-only, and could be run from batch file as well) via TCP connection so remote admin is possible
c) add player (clients; make TCP connection, or load up emailed turn files)
d) plug-in AIs, which work like player clients in all regards
e) "morph" (start other GUI in background, minimize itself) into a player client for doing a turn

Have a "server", which takes order files, generates the turn files, according to the games "rules" file he's been provided with.

Have a "client", which basically is the GUI every player (on the master comp as well) uses to display his turn and issue orders

Have "AI plugins", which are standalone programs, which take standard turn files, and produce standard order files, which they send to the server via TCP (must run on the server, if there will be some kind of serial no copy protection. Otherwise players could make their own client which proposes to be an AI and play for free)


There's a big catch to this, though (at least, one that I realised ;) ):
The "rules" files must describe the complete game, no functions or values can be hardcoded, or you'll will end up doing the same code three times for server, clients and AIs, and most likely will introduce nasty bugs that way.
Unless you forgo complete "sanity checking" of the order files on the server side ... what would open the door wide for all kind of cheats :(

Alikiwi February 14th, 2010 12:28 AM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Classified information has been leaked :D Who me? Actually, in recent discussions, we are looking at dual atmosphere types which is more realistic. Seems very likely we will have Tugs, ships that can actually tow those crippled ships, rather than blow em up cause you haven't got a repair ship handy.
There will be at least 1 Nomadic Race and a Monster Race (pure AI) plus Pirates as well as (previously mentioned) Traders.
Population and Troops will probably require seperate Quarters, they are not cargo really. Weapons may have a firing order, so that weapons which can't reach their target (like engines, cause shields are still up), won't fire until they can achieve their goal. Saves wasting precious supplies.

Edi February 14th, 2010 07:30 AM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
This is starting to sound better and better! :)

Louist February 15th, 2010 05:40 AM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Engines as weapons are very cool if rarely used.

Sandow February 16th, 2010 02:52 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
I'm going to be one of those voices who cheers for 2D. It's much easier for me to create mods when the graphics are essentially simple.
My all time favorite 4X games (after SEIV of course) is Emperor of the Fading Suns. After multiple patches it actually became an addictive and playable game with turn based ground combat as well as space slug-fests.

Alikiwi February 17th, 2010 04:41 AM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Being a Modder myself, 2D is the best way to go. Less chance of a slow pc, and although great graphics is nice, it's the gameplay that brings you back time after time! Mind you, you'll find the graphics pretty damn good anyway :D
Now, where did I leave that Rescue ship? I've got a crippled cruiser needing a tow.... ;)

Xrati February 17th, 2010 02:15 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
For those with older comp's, 2D is great. There is no real reason for 3D graphics in a 4X game. If you want 3D then go buy one of the 'Shoot'em Ups' or 'Flight Sims' out there. Those are, after all, combat sims and this IS a turn based strategy game, not real time. No need to mix the two. ;)

InfStorm February 17th, 2010 02:38 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
3d would be cool for computer controlled fights, but 2D is much easier for people to use when controlling the fight. Brings back days of Starfleet Battles, Star Fronties space battles, and many many others growing up. (hope I'm not dating myself whoth those references.

Looking forward to seeing more about the game's content. Hope there is more to planet management and ship construction than was in Stars! or the Space Empires series (or others).

Edi February 17th, 2010 05:44 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Oh, the Star Frontiers reference gives me quite enough of a date, but it is because I am so intimately familiar with that.

Oh, the glorious battles we had, I still remember many of them now, 18 years later, and how the GM was fit to chew the hex map and the tabletop for good measure when his best laid plans disintegrated under the withering hail of one in a million shots worthy of Luke Skywalker's trench run...

:D

MarcoPolo February 18th, 2010 04:54 PM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
I think the game combat system can be 2D and a half :P and still be quite gratuitous. You need only look at "gratuitous space battles" to see an example of 2D space battles done correctly and still with a sense of grandour and epicness. I challenge anyone to say this 2D combat wouldnt enrich the gaming experience enough for this game.

The battle arenas or battlefields could reflect some of the landscapes or solar system conditions found in each users territory (eg nebulas, asteroid field, gas giants) All this could throw in conditions such as reduced speed, or debris field damage or sheilds being inoperable making armoured ships more valuable in such scenarios. The possibilities are endless.

I would also encourage a grading system of resources were each solar system would have either an abundance or ore or gas minerals depending on how many terrestrial or jovian planets it had. Also developing a solid infrastructure in your home solar system before venturing off into space should be the early focus of each player, (this being developing better technologies for resource collecting and colonisation, where the player could experience its own growing pains when colonising its own solar system)

Id like to see tech levels visible on a planetary scale. By this i mean its possible to visit a planet were all the inhabitants are still pre space faring, this could throw up interesting govt options which would align the player with good or evil politics. It could mean that a player would decide to either protect non-space faring nations without interference, trade with them raw materials in exchange for your technology and ultimately become a member world of your empire or exploit them(slavery) or annihilate them for colonisation(genocide)

Also having varying tech levels when doing a planet scan, would allow the player to decide on a wealth of new diplomatic options that would otherwise been only the same old boring good vs evil ones. Also if a player gets into the habit of just taking over planetary systems like games in the past, it quickly becomes a race for resources in the most uncreative way. This way a player can still gain other things, like favour amongst the other races when trading or negotiating treaties or border disputes, going by the way its handles its politics in the past with small nations or even non space faring worlds.

Just one of my many ideas for this game:P

Sorry for the longwinded descriptions.

Alikiwi February 19th, 2010 05:24 AM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
GSB, already looked at that. Certainly nice graphics but at least we will be able to control our ships and move them as we see fit. They will also be able to retreat if thats necessary ;)

Quote : Also developing a solid infrastructure in your home solar system before venturing off into space should be the early focus of each player,

Thats a player choice (certainly not mine :-) ) and the player/s will have plenty of choices. The idea of finding primitive (pre space flight) races has also been considered, and hopefully will happen.

A far greater flexibility in treaties is also expected and hopefully when you ask an AI for help, you will actually get it! The ability to steal enemy suplies from their ships is an uncomfirmed rumour :doh:

Timstone February 19th, 2010 11:20 AM

Re: Welcome Star Legacy Development Group!
 
Alikiwi:
Hehehe... you've spilled some beans mate. Care to share more? :D


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