(Zlefin) i concur it is beneficial to encourage such things. but i did remember that this all started when you were not noting a difference between the giving of gems to archae, and the giving of the vps to wraith.
(Zlefin) so i want to get that matter settled.
(Squirrelloid) i don't see a difference in *kind*
(Squirrelloid) i do see a difference in degree
(Squirrelloid) but slippery slopes are dangerous beasts
(Zlefin) well, the end of this slope is actions that cause you to lose the game directly.
(Squirrelloid) So, lets assume that there are two nations battling it out for the win. There exists some amount of material advantage which will let A defeat B and win the game
(Squirrelloid) lets call that amount of material advantage X
(Zlefin) ok.
(Squirrelloid) how much of X can you give a nation and have that be acceptable
(Squirrelloid) Knowing other nations could also be contributing to X, how does that effect that judgement?
(Squirrelloid) i haven't seen an endgame with gemgens, but 1300 gems strikes me as a *lot* of material
(Zlefin) what if it isn't?
(Zlefin) from what they said, their income was about 500 gems/turn
(Squirrelloid) that's what, a couple hundred tartarians they didn't otherwise have?
(Zlefin) so is 3 turns of gem income a LOT of material?
(Zlefin) maybe 100 tarts, though it'd depend on gem type, but what if you already have a thousand tarts?
(Zlefin) it may be a lot of material in an absolute sense, but in relative sense, not so much.
(Zlefin) But there's another important distinction to make.
(Zlefin) given the nation A and B
(Squirrelloid) ok, on is 3 turns of income a lot: you're making 1k gold net. You get the 3k gold lucky event. Is that a lot? My experience says it is
(Zlefin) suppose A has an advantage over B.
(Zlefin) and that the difference in that advantage is an amount of material Y
(Zlefin) what about giving B material equal to Y so that the two nations are evenly matched?
(Squirrelloid) it does change the eventual outcome of the game. It is also unlikely to make bystander nation C the win, imo
(Squirrelloid) I mean, i don't have a problem with giving gems at all
(Squirrelloid) but it is an attempt to change or ensure the winner of the game
(Zlefin) Is C more or less likely to win the game, than if A just rolls over everyone?
(Squirrelloid) If we assume there's some ordering of nations: A,B,C... such that A)B)C)...
(Squirrelloid) And A,B )) C+
(Squirrelloid) I would likely judge that any improvement in C's chances to win are negligible. And that D+ don't see any real improvement in chance to win
(Zlefin) they may be negligible in an absolute sense, but in a %wise sense it may be large, like, it might double your chance of winning from .1% to .2%
(Squirrelloid) Lets think about this a different way - we're ok with Kingmaking play as an acceptable practice, yes?
(Zlefin) certainly in competitive games, optimizing unlikely chances is part of success.
(Zlefin) i'm not sure what the community stnadards are on kingmaking, that's kind of what we're discussing right now
(Zlefin) and there's sorta two issues: what is properly acceptable behavior, and what behavoir makes for a more enjoyable game for everyone.
(Squirrelloid) i see kingmaking as integral to diplomatic strategy games, i suppose, so this is a hard discussion because I'm looking at those lesser nation's motives as 'we'd rather have B win than A', not 'I could win if they exhaust themselves'
(Squirrelloid) which i would guess the latter motive is applicable to maybe one or two of them
(Zlefin) my understanding is that the community is very accepting of the latter reason, and fairly acepting, but certainly less so, for the former.
(Squirrelloid) its just the latter reason is vastly implausible for most players, and likely highly implausible for someone not already in contention themselves
(Squirrelloid) I mean, if there are any AARs of a nation winning because he gave gold/gems to B, and A and B exhausted themselves, allowing C to win, i'd love to read them
(Zlefin) that reminds me, there's a project for this i've considered doing, which would be to specify some number of (preferably plausible) examples, and have the community vote/discuss, as to whether they think each are acceptable. to get a better sense of community standards.
(Squirrelloid) the game just doesn't favor underdogs coming from that far behind
(Zlefin) it depends on the power difference between AB and C, i'm sure if they're closer in power levels, so that C is somewhat still in contention, then there are cases
(Squirrelloid) well, the thing is, if C is close enough he probably doesn't want to send gems himself
(Zlefin) indeed, the game does not. though if the two who are fighting both leave you alone, and you can say, devote 100% of yoru gems to making even more clams
(Squirrelloid) (although he may encourage other nations to do so)
(Squirrelloid) (assuming he can't gain their gem gifts for himself)
(Squirrelloid) it might vastly improve the game if losing your capitol, and failing to regain it in some timeframe, meant you were removed from the game
(Zlefin) it also sometimes has to do with national matchups, especially earler in the game, where some nations are good/bad vs other nations.
(Squirrelloid) i've mostly been thinking about late game scenarios - sure, i can accept a time component on it
(Squirrelloid) but once you get to lategame that's all there is. Things aren't getting better
(Zlefin) things cna change, the research level doesn't change
(Zlefin) so you'd have to get an advantage some other way. the most obviuos way with gem gens, is to be try to make more gem gens than the other players
(Squirrelloid) indeed
(Squirrelloid) I think the removal of gemgens is going to further entrench early dominance as the key to winning, as an aside
(Zlefin) there may be other ways depending on the victory conditions.
(Zlefin) to a degree, but dominance too early in the game gets you piled on.
(Zlefin) the removal of gemgens is really more about mitigating the late game micro, that gets relaly stupid when people have 500+ gems/turn and are making 30 new clams a turn
(Squirrelloid) yes, i'd believe it
(Zlefin) it also leads to the annoying strategic situation where (without vps especially) territory doesn't matter much, since the bulk of one's income comes from gem gens, not from sites in teritories or gold from territories.
(Zlefin) and usually all those gem gens are on units sitting in the capital, behind 6 different domes.
(Squirrelloid) I don't know, i find it hard to stomach blanket acceptance of gem gifting by assuming 'they're just trying to wait for the powers to exhaust themselves before making a grab at victory', which feels like praying for the tooth fairy to be real
(Zlefin) i'm not sure i'd stomach blanket acceptance, there may be other more specific cases where it makes more sense.
(Zlefin) especially things that have more to do with national matchups, like nation C is good vs B, but bad vs A, but nation B is good vs A.
(Squirrelloid) no one's really questioned those 1300 gems though, which i doubt all came from might-be's looking to wait for their opportunity
(Zlefin) well, with those gems there's a lot more grey area.
(Squirrelloid) i mean, i'd bet you'd find most gem gifting is a player who wants a rival to lose than is actually planning for the win himself
(Zlefin) the fact that it's possible for those to encourage mutual annihilation fo the top 2 powers.
(Zlefin) yers, that may be the case; thoug halot of gem gifting is also done at the point where a player decides they can't win themselves. though in that case, it sounded like the gems were more payment for service than anything else
(Zlefin) (i.e. help me defend vs them and i'll pay you some gems)
(Squirrelloid) i mean, again, bad judgement is possible, but that sounds a lot like "i'm going to lose, but if you keep me in the game i'm willing to dig a deeper hole for myself"
(Zlefin) with the gems, there IS a grey area where it could help you in the long run, with giving awy the actual win, there is NO grey area.
(Zlefin) also, the actual community stnadards for this game have a partial role-playing element in my experience, the role-playing of a pretender god.
(Zlefin) well, being in the game means you technically have a chance, when your'e out of the game you have no chance at all.
(Squirrelloid) there's no roleplaying niche for the leader of a defeated nation to invite his friends in as occupiers rather than suffer under a conqueror?
(Zlefin) i think there's some leeway there.
(Zlefin) but from what i heard, r'lyeh wasn't being conquered by arch.
(Zlefin) if r'lyeh got trashed and was being invaded by van, and had no way to sotp it, that'd be another story
(Squirrelloid) Some things do become inevitable
(Zlefin) well, when we get into communtuiy standards things get a bit vaguer, i'm reporting my impressions here.
(Squirrelloid) its turn 6 and (crazy dual/triple blessed unit of choice) is massed on your border. Do you (a) assuming they'll wander on to someone else or (b) realize they're going to eat you, and you can't stop them
(Zlefin) my impression, is that allowing an ally to take some of your stuff, when you're being invaded by an enemy you can't stop is rather different from when you still have defenses, and they're not invading you, and they might not be able to invade you without leaving themselves vulnerable to someone else.
(Squirrelloid) i mean, clearly aristander's situation wasn't that hopeless, but everyone can make projections about where they think the game is going
(Zlefin) from a role-playing perspective, it seems rather like, hmm, A&B are well matched, while either could crush me if they fully committed to it, doing so would cuase them to lose to the other.
(Zlefin) therefore, any attack they do will only represent a part of those forces, and i may eb strong enough to repulse that part.
(Squirrelloid) don't get me wrong, i'm an eternal optimist
(Squirrelloid) but i have some friends who can be pretty defeatist when things look down for them
(Zlefin) i'm a cuatious person in terms of making judgements, far more cautious than average.
(Zlefin) i know, i'm more of a fight to the end person
(Zlefin) i can call it a win if i'm alive at the end of the game
(Zlefin) even if i didn't win.
(Squirrelloid) i fully support 'screw my enemy', but i like being the one directly doing the screwing. Passing stuff to other people isn't my style
(Zlefin) i prefer to screw the enemy as mcuh as possible and bleed them as much as possible, and I only giveaway stuff when it's at the final moment, or if giving away stuff is to my benefit
(Squirrelloid) i can understand that sometimes you're in no condition to do that, however. Re: Marveni in VC3
(Zlefin) (like giving fire res rings to an ally so they can beat back abysia)
(Squirrelloid) (who ultimately gave his cash and gems to me right before he died because none of his actual neighbors would intervene)
(Squirrelloid) which gives me a longterm goal =)
(Zlefin) i certainly prefer to limit transfers to right before death.
(Squirrelloid) at some point i think alliances where one nation is really propping up a bunch of client states gets into a grey area
(Zlefin) i agree.
(Squirrelloid) I mean, ultimately those nations are just extensions of the larger nation, and the idea of them 'giving' VPs to the real nation involved is more like a recognition of that reality
(Zlefin) of course if there's enough client stats, then they could conceivably try to ally with an outside power at some point and overthrow the conqueror.
(Zlefin) from a role-playing point, staying alive for an opportunity.
(Zlefin) and there's certainly degrees to how clienty they are.
(Squirrelloid) at the point it becomes 'i would have been conquered if you didn't militarily intervene', they stop existing as a separate entity in my mind
(Zlefin) hmm, as i think about it, it rather seems like an anti-suicide rule.
(Squirrelloid) (assuming that's an ongoing state and not a one time thing)
(Zlefin) they become a vassal entity; i'm pretty sure in real history, they sometimes had enough local power to break free at times, at least if the conquering power waned or had to go focus elsewhere.
(Squirrelloid) indeed
(Squirrelloid) but real life doesn't have victory conditions
(Squirrelloid) Hmm... i should set up a game with explicit rules for vassals
(Zlefin) i guess the point isn't so much that they are a separate entity, but that they are a reasonably separable entity.
(Zlefin) explicit vassal rules would certainly make things clear.
(Squirrelloid) i mean, i have this feeling that vassal VPs should count towards your total
(Zlefin) that's reasonable, though the game itself doesn't support that of course.
(Squirrelloid) of course, but most games end in concession anyway, right?
(Zlefin) yes.
(Squirrelloid) if graphs are on, its independently verifiable
(Zlefin) though one of the points of vp games is to make it so the game can actually end by the game code rather than by concession
(Squirrelloid) heh
(Zlefin) concession is more often used in nonvp games
(Zlefin) i don't know what percentage of games iwht reasonable vp conditions actually end in concession, that may be much smaller.
(Squirrelloid) i've seen a lot of games which are 'hold N capitols for K turns', which also is basically a pre-agreed concession
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