.com.unity Forums
  The Official e-Store of Shrapnel Games

This Month's Specials

Bronze- Save $10.00
winSPMBT: Main Battle Tank- Save $5.00

   







Go Back   .com.unity Forums > Illwinter Game Design > Dominions 3: The Awakening

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old November 14th, 2006, 11:39 AM

Sheap Sheap is offline
Second Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Lakewood, CO
Posts: 596
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 1 Post
Sheap is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Standard special ability, totally pointless?

There is not any hero in the game that can turn the tide in a war by himself, unless you get a very good hero VERY early (the chances of getting a hero are based on your scales, especially your luck scale).

There is a big zone between "what is the point" and "overpowering" and every hero should be in that zone. A hero won't really provide any flavor if you can't do anything with him besides shuttle troops around, maybe his text is interesting but you really need a gameplay effect to appreciate it.

There's more than one way to become a hero - one way is to do ordinary things very well, and another way is to do extraordinary things. There is room for both in the game. Taking the example of Ulm, I agree a powerful mage would not make sense, but a powerful priest might (given that Ulm has lousy priests normally, but doesn't really have a problem with religion other than lack of interest). Or a vampire in the middle era or a mage with the forge bonus in late era, heralding or recalling a different time. These are ways they could be different from the usual without really being out of place. A hero with a really strong siege or fortification bonus wouldn't really be different, but could certainly be better without just having tiny stat bonuses like most Ulmish heroes.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old November 14th, 2006, 12:02 PM
Nerfix's Avatar

Nerfix Nerfix is offline
Lieutenant General
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Hyvinkää, Finland
Posts: 2,703
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Nerfix is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Standard special ability, totally pointless?

Don't 2/3 out of the Ulmish heroes ride Unicorns and get Recuperation? And good stats also. Seems good to me.
__________________

"Boobs are OK. Just not for Nerfix [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Smile.gif[/img] ."
- Kristoffer O.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old November 14th, 2006, 12:11 PM

thejeff thejeff is offline
General
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,327
Thanks: 4
Thanked 133 Times in 117 Posts
thejeff is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Standard special ability, totally pointless?

They do. But they're still just slightly better heavy cavalry. If you try to use them as thugs, they die quickly. A little slower if you give them good equipment, but then that's a big investment on a fragile unit.

The recuperation doesn't help much, since they're just as likely to die outright as to get an affliction.

If you don't use them as thugs, there's no advantage over other commanders since they're just moving troops around.

A boosted Smith or Black Priest would be just as thematic, and much more useful
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old November 14th, 2006, 12:59 PM

FrankTrollman FrankTrollman is offline
Second Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 559
Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
FrankTrollman is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Standard special ability, totally pointless?

One of them even comes with leather armor, which means that unless you make her some blacksteel pate she isn't even heavy infantry. Ulm Heroes should be in character for Ulm. They should start their life with real Blacksteel equipment and real blacksteel weaponry (such as a Star of Heroes, not a "morningstar"). That would be in character. A hero that has really nice forged equipment.

As is, they are just on the upper end of normal human stats. They don't even win a one on one against recruitables from groups that are specifically superhuman such as Iron Woods or Man.

There are some heroes that really open new vistas - such as Angerboda or the Seer King. But the guys who are just a normal warrior with stat bonuses equivalent to a star or two - that's just lame.

Or to put it another way: Special Character Magicians get the equivalent of dozens of gems worth of empowerment, it is not unreasonable for special character warriors to come out of the box with a handful of gems worth of equipment.

-Frank
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old November 14th, 2006, 01:10 PM
Graeme Dice's Avatar

Graeme Dice Graeme Dice is offline
General
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,013
Thanks: 17
Thanked 25 Times in 22 Posts
Graeme Dice is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Standard special ability, totally pointless?

Quote:
B0rsuk said:
You should be playing Heroes of Might and Magic 5. I'd rather play a strategy game.
I really wish there wasn't so much hatred directed towards those parts of the game that make Dominions unique and worth playing. The throwing of armies of mundane troops at each other is not that part of the game. Even the AI can manage to do that.

What makes the game worth playing is the ability to use magic and combinations of magical items to defeat your enemies. If people want a game where mundane troops are boosted by magic, but the actual magic isn't that powerful, there's the Age of Wonders series. I prefer Dominions with magic that actually matters and can win battles by itself.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old November 14th, 2006, 01:13 PM

thejeff thejeff is offline
General
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,327
Thanks: 4
Thanked 133 Times in 117 Posts
thejeff is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Standard special ability, totally pointless?

The base of the problem is that the game doesn't really support really good "human" warrior types.

Essentially because even with buffs and the best equipment you need enough hit points to survive a few lucky hits.
Given that some of the heroic abilities can give serious hp boosts, why not a hero with 2 or 3 times normal hps?
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old November 14th, 2006, 01:45 PM
Endoperez's Avatar

Endoperez Endoperez is offline
National Security Advisor
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Eastern Finland
Posts: 7,110
Thanks: 145
Thanked 153 Times in 101 Posts
Endoperez is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Standard special ability, totally pointless?

Quote:
FrankTrollman said:
One of them even comes with leather armor, which means that unless you make her some blacksteel pate she isn't even heavy infantry. Ulm Heroes should be in character for Ulm. They should start their life with real Blacksteel equipment and real blacksteel weaponry (such as a Star of Heroes, not a "morningstar"). That would be in character. A hero that has really nice forged equipment.

As is, they are just on the upper end of normal human stats. They don't even win a one on one against recruitables from groups that are specifically superhuman such as Iron Woods or Man.

There are some heroes that really open new vistas - such as Angerboda or the Seer King. But the guys who are just a normal warrior with stat bonuses equivalent to a star or two - that's just lame.

Or to put it another way: Special Character Magicians get the equivalent of dozens of gems worth of empowerment, it is not unreasonable for special character warriors to come out of the box with a handful of gems worth of equipment.

-Frank
Except, of course, that it's not possible to make heroes appear with actual items. And items (other than weapons) are almost impossible to emulate properly on a unit.

The Heroine with Leather Armor has lower encumberance than the other knights, and AP 30 (although that can be a liability as well). Black Plate armor doesn't cost that much, not for Ulm.


Barhulf:
HP 19, str 15, att 14, def 13, mag res 10, enc 5. Armor for 21/20 prot. Def change -1. Giving him a magical weapon boosts him a lot, because he starts with a Morningstar (-2 def).

Raterik:
HP 17, str 15, att 13, def 14, mag res 13, enc 5, same equipment.

Hildegard:
HP 14, str 12, att 15, def 15, enc 4, mag res 13, essentially no armor/helm and just spear/shield. Def change +6, to 21.


In comparison, Demon Knights have HP 20, str 15, att/def 13, mag res 15, enc 1. Prot 22/24, def change of +4 from equipment. Demon Knights have a Broad Sword, Lance, Hoof instead of (weapon), hoof. Demon Knights have other abilities too, but he's here just for the comparison of stats.


Spornsjarl the Wolf Lord is actually useless. He has only Stealth 0 and Standard 10. Because stealth is dependent on the stealth value of the leader and the size of the army (pg 67), his forces are just as easy to catch as every other Vaetti Lord's. If he had, say, Stealth 40, he could lead an army of 40 units and still have as small chance of being caught as a single Scout.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old November 14th, 2006, 01:51 PM
Gandalf Parker's Avatar

Gandalf Parker Gandalf Parker is offline
Shrapnel Fanatic
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Vacaville, CA, USA
Posts: 13,736
Thanks: 341
Thanked 479 Times in 326 Posts
Gandalf Parker is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Standard special ability, totally pointless?

I think the heroes fit fine. They arent super-heroes or super combatants. They are commanders with a story and history which show up for free.

If they are misbalanced, that might be a different subject. Of course the balance of the heroes would have to take into account the balance of the nations also.
__________________
-- DISCLAIMER:
This game is NOT suitable for students, interns, apprentices, or anyone else who is expected to pass tests on a regular basis. Do not think about strategies while operating heavy machinery. Before beginning this game make arrangements for someone to check on you daily. If you find that your game has continued for more than 36 hours straight then you should consult a physician immediately (Do NOT show him the game!)
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old November 14th, 2006, 01:51 PM
Cainehill's Avatar

Cainehill Cainehill is offline
Lieutenant General
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Albuquerque New Mexico
Posts: 2,997
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Cainehill is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Standard special ability, totally pointless?


Not to mention that you can get Spornsjarl as a "hero" playing a variant of Jotunheim that doesn't _get_ any stealthy units. (Or at least this was true in Dom2.)

And - heroes should be _heroic_. The default ones aren't - some of them you'd rather get a bit of gold instead of the hero, _especially_ since the heroes cost upkeep. If they aren't heroic, why bother having them?

Thank the Great Pumpkin that Turin seems to be working on a Heroic Commanders again.
__________________
Wormwood and wine, and the bitter taste of ashes.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old November 14th, 2006, 02:02 PM

FrankTrollman FrankTrollman is offline
Second Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 559
Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
FrankTrollman is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Standard special ability, totally pointless?

Quote:
Except, of course, that it's not possible to make heroes appear with actual items.
But Blacksteel Plate, Blacksteel Kite Shields, Blacksteel Helmets, and Blacksteel Full Plate are all just armor types that you can start units with.

Frost Brands and the like are all just weapon types. Characters can start with those too.

Sure, it's not the actual magic item, but as long as the item in question doesn't do anything except provide a weapon or armor type, it mods in just fine. Flambeaus don't mod properly, but a Star of Heroes or a Blacksteel Helmet totally does.

-Frank
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2022, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.