Mod New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate V1.01 - Page 11

rdonj · #**101** November 25th, 2008, 09:34 AM

Hmm, the vine dragon seems to have an issue. It shows a black background behind it and pink below it, at least when you're looking at it in the strategic view... I haven't seen it in battle yet. Might the sprite be bigger than it's supposed to be? The black background covers up part of the name and other commanders grouped near it.

Endoperez · #**102** November 25th, 2008, 01:35 PM

Black should be transparent, magent should be the shadow. If they're even slightly off, they won't work.

Loren · #**103** November 25th, 2008, 04:23 PM

I thought I finally was going to get somewhere against the Impossibles. While I started near Ermor I got a very defensible position. Tian Chi picked a fight and I killed all his land forces. I had been cranking out temples because of Ry'leh and this soon resulted in a dominion kill on his sea forces.

For some reason Ermor didn't decide to go after me but Agartha did. @#%^@%^ ghosts, the bane of the Dragons! After I finished off Tian Chi I tried to deal with Agartha but I wasn't getting very far, my forces kept routing.

I also find there is a big problem with the PD. The majority of the units you get are "no one", wimpy fighters that move very slowly. My fliers engage at the start, the stupid wrymlings die (the only use I can see for these units is to have lots of units to deter AI attacks.) and the steel dragons fight the battle alone.

While I was trying to deal with this a couple thousand Patela units came across my other border. I had put too much into PD for deterrence (probably why Ermor didn't attack) before discovering that it's actually a liability if I'm defending the province. The final straw was an attack from Agartha that hit maxed PD + over 100 bonebiters. Most decent PD would have stopped the attack alone, with 100 bonebiters it should have been a cakewalk. It was a rout instead.

I also think the dragons need better morale. I've never had this insane rout problem against ghosts with any other race.

rdonj · #**104** November 25th, 2008, 06:58 PM

Have you been using summoned SC dragons at all? The magma and golden dragons can be fairly effective SCs and go a long way towards making armies easier to fight. And you can use golden dragons as teleporting army assassins against undead with solar brilliance if you're careful. Magma dragons tend to work better on undead though, especially if you have a minor E/N bless.

Loren · #**105** November 27th, 2008, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdonj

Have you been using summoned SC dragons at all? The magma and golden dragons can be fairly effective SCs and go a long way towards making armies easier to fight. And you can use golden dragons as teleporting army assassins against undead with solar brilliance if you're careful. Magma dragons tend to work better on undead though, especially if you have a minor E/N bless.

I've been killed before reaching that point.

Aezeal · #**106** November 28th, 2008, 05:25 PM

So we are not walking over AI's on impossible anymore... that sounds like balance has improved somewhat at least

I don't know how you normally (with other (vanilla) races) fare against 12 impossible AI's but personally Í think it might be a good thing you can't beat them

I will look into morale but PD exists of less wyrmlings than it did before

I've checked morale and it's all 12 (only a few) and going up.. pretty sure that is equal to well trained and elite human troops. Even wyrmlings have morale 12.. if they break I think the game wants regular troops (and militia since that is what wyrmlings basicly are) to break in that situation.

I'm not sure about avarage PD morale but I can't imagine much PD having better morale really. Not to mention I'm not feeling good about improving the race again after all reports of them being overpowered before.

The vinedragon will be looked into when I have time again. Rdonj the sprite has a "regular" size of 128 max I think but even that size makes the pictures cross over eachother on all sides.

I'm also wondering about your phrase "my fliers" since I'm pretty sure ALL dragons have flying (even wyrmlings)

the characteristics of dragons are
- flying
- (at least) darkvision 50
- (at least) size 3 (increasing with age)
- claw attacks
- magicboost 1 (for all except priestly magic, also increasing with age)
- at least pillagebonus 1 (increasing with size)
- increasingly higher magic skills (including) priestly magic (starting with 0 for young dragons though)
- having the "heal" = recuperate I think ability
- limited slots (#itemslots 61568)

JimMorrison · #**107** November 28th, 2008, 06:14 PM

I think the "Morale" issue with the wyrmlings, especially as PD, is that with their size, their relatively low defense, and their lack of a shield - they will all spread out around the enemy on turn 1, then get horribly slaughtered. Then that portion of the PD routs, and thus puts the entire battle in jeopardy of routing.

I might suggest removing the Flight from wyrmlings, as they haven't matured enough to achieve sustained flight? It may actually make them more useful then, as they will at least stay clumped together.

Loren · #**108** November 29th, 2008, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aezeal

So we are not walking over AI's on impossible anymore... that sounds like balance has improved somewhat at least

I don't know how you normally (with other (vanilla) races) fare against 12 impossible AI's but personally Í think it might be a good thing you can't beat them

Yeah, I still fare better with the Dragons than with the stock races.

Quote:

I will look into morale but PD exists of less wyrmlings than it did before

It's got less but it should have few or none. They aren't meaningful defense. There is also those "no one"'s that hurt. If you have to have them there, beef them up and make them immobile.

Quote:

I've checked morale and it's all 12 (only a few) and going up.. pretty sure that is equal to well trained and elite human troops. Even wyrmlings have morale 12.. if they break I think the game wants regular troops (and militia since that is what wyrmlings basicly are) to break in that situation.

The wyrmlings aren't the problem. It's the tougher dragons. It's *NOT* just the PD, it's in combat in general against ghosts. I think what's going on is that since you are using fewer tougher units the morale-lowering from the undead gets more concentrated.

rdonj · #**109** November 29th, 2008, 12:22 PM

The wyrmlings give the illusion of not flying, as iirc they move along the ground in combat instead of leaping suddenly where they want to go.

I am not sure I agree about strengthening wyrmlings, or about removing them from the PD. In the sense they're currently being used in, they're not supposed to be meaningful as province defense, they're what's being protected. That being the case, making them unable to fly and reducing their ap would probably be a good idea. Removing them from the PD just means they won't ever be used, because they're too expensive and fragile to be used as chaff and will underperform even unshielded militia. You also don't really need chaff with the dragons, generally speaking. But making them much stronger would not be a good idea, they're not really much weaker as it is than a venemous dragon in melee, and those cost twice as much.

I also am not sure that the dragons need higher morale, per say. I have had problems with summoned dragons routing due to fear spam even when I gave one the helmet that increases morale. But it hasn't been as bad on my armies. Maybe loren has been getting more ghosts than me, but my experience has been that the dragons win battles too fast for fear to usually be an issue. And if it is possible for it to be an issue maybe that's not so bad.

Loren · #**110** November 29th, 2008, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdonj

The wyrmlings give the illusion of not flying, as iirc they move along the ground in combat instead of leaping suddenly where they want to go.

I am not sure I agree about strengthening wyrmlings, or about removing them from the PD. In the sense they're currently being used in, they're not supposed to be meaningful as province defense, they're what's being protected. That being the case, making them unable to fly and reducing their ap would probably be a good idea. Removing them from the PD just means they won't ever be used, because they're too expensive and fragile to be used as chaff and will underperform even unshielded militia. You also don't really need chaff with the dragons, generally speaking. But making them much stronger would not be a good idea, they're not really much weaker as it is than a venemous dragon in melee, and those cost twice as much.

I also am not sure that the dragons need higher morale, per say. I have had problems with summoned dragons routing due to fear spam even when I gave one the helmet that increases morale. But it hasn't been as bad on my armies. Maybe loren has been getting more ghosts than me, but my experience has been that the dragons win battles too fast for fear to usually be an issue. And if it is possible for it to be an issue maybe that's not so bad.

The problem isn't fear spam, the problem is undead, especially ghosts. Against such an army a rout is almost certain regardless of the force matchup.