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Old December 4th, 2021, 04:12 AM
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Default Trounced on home turf ?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-exercise.html
Quote:
Trounced on home turf: British Royal Marine commandos force US Marines into humiliating surrender halfway through five-day war training exercise in Mojave desert

British forces took part in a five-day mock battle at the US Marine Corps' Twentynine Palms base in California
Combatants used training ammunition along with hi-tech simulators for heavier firepower like artillery
Seeing no opportunity for victory, American combatants asked for the exercise to be 'reset' halfway through

Royal Marines commandos 'dominated' US troops and forced them into a humiliating surrender just days into a mass training exercise in the Mojave desert, it has been revealed today.

British forces took part in a five-day mock battle at the US Marine Corps' Twentynine Palms base in southern California, one of the largest military training areas in the world, and achieved a decisive victory against their American counterparts.

The Royal Marines, along with allied forces from Canada, the Netherlands and the UAE, destroyed or rendered inoperable nearly every US asset and finished the exercise holding more than 65 per cent of the training area, after beginning with less than 20 per cent.



......sometimes a plan works....sometimes it doesn't

Further----- https://www.military.com/daily-news/...-29-palms.html

and alternate views......

https://coffeeordie.com/marines-dominated-by-british/

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/new...ning-exercise/

Quote:
“The exercise was conducted in a free-play environment designed to stress commanders, derive learning points and allow participants to improve their ability to conduct offensive and defensive operations, and adapt to changes on the battlefield,”


“During this exercise, a U.S. Marine Regiment augmented with subordinate units formed an adversary force to actively challenge and test a peer regiment of U.S. Marines,” Colvin added. “This training opportunity increased warfighting readiness and interoperability of the U.S. Marine Corps with multinational forces. Exercise scenarios are adjusted as needed to assist commanders in meeting training objectives.”
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Old December 4th, 2021, 11:28 AM

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Default Re: Trounced on home turf ?

Having been out to 29 Palms and NTC for different exercises with our allied nations joining in, I can say it does take things to a whole new level, there is less asinine stupidity from the battalion and higher commanders and we actually get to do our jobs vs worrying so much about the minor factors. It is amazing how the minor issues seem to vanish during these events but can't seem to go away during normal training events. Odd...but then again when you have everyone looking at you from different commands and such I guess some things become less important for worry.
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Old December 4th, 2021, 12:37 PM
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Default Re: Trounced on home turf ?

What would be most instructive would be the roster of troop strength by nationality involved in this exercise. So far, I have not found one
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Old December 5th, 2021, 10:05 AM
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Default Re: Trounced on home turf ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG View Post
What would be most instructive would be the roster of troop strength by nationality involved in this exercise. So far, I have not found one
It took some digging but it **appears** there were a series of exercises done on that base in Oct 2021

One was BLACK ALLIGATOR 15 conducted from Aug. 5 through Oct. 15.

https://www.29palms.marines.mil/Arti...udes-with-bbq/

that one involved
Quote:
Approximately 1,000 British Royal Marines and 170 Dutch Royal Army soldiers

Black Alligator is an annual training exercise, with this year’s iteration enabling British Royal Marines and Dutch Royal Army forces to refresh their expeditionary warfighting capabilities while working in tandem with U.S. forces.
Then there was Green Dagger which is the one referenced by the British Press and that was also held October 2021


https://www.joint-forces.com/exercis...-in-the-mojave

Quote:
The conclusion of the exercises, known as GREEN DAGGER, was five days of gruelling warfighting which saw allied forces – from the US, Canada, United Arab Emirates, the Netherlands and UK – join forces to take on a highly-equipped US Marine Corps adversary.
That link gives a more even handed account as does this

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-an...n-green-dagger

Quote:
Specialists from across Commando Logistic Regiment, 30 Commando Information Exploitation Group, 24 Commando Royal Engineers and 29 Commando Royal Artillery have joined 40 Commando in the desert along with 12 Raiding Squadron of the Netherlands Marine Corps.

The plan over the coming weeks is to stress test this commando group and refresh key soldiering skills to ensure they are prepared for full operations.
The response group comprised approx 500 British and 120 Dutch troops.
Quote:
The commandos will form an adversary force for US Marines during a Mountain Training Exercise that will test both forces’ guile in the unforgiving surroundings.
also......

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michael...h=7f0aa24265f0

https://www.forces.net/news/royal-ma...fornian-desert

and finally.........

https://taskandpurpose.com/voices/us...ning-exercise/

Quote:
The British 40 Commando was a subordinate unit under the 7th Marines, alongside a Marine Special Operations Company and a Marine infantry battalion (2/5). Opposing them under the 3rd Marines were two battalions of Marine infantry along with various supporting units. There was no part of the exercise in which 40 Commando was pitted alone against a U.S. Marine unit

Now what is interesting about that last link is on one hand it is written

Quote:
The exercise which the Telegraph mistakenly calls “Green Dagger”
then goes on to call it "Exercise Green Dagger"

Apparently the "error" there was not putting "Exercise" in front of "Green Dagger"

Potato-Potatoe

This all points out that no matter who writes about an event there WILL be a spin put on it either by the writer or the Editor and the last article was written by someone who "retired from the Marine Corps as a colonel in 2019"

.... so no inherent bias there.....

No matter what you read or hear there will always be two ( or more ) sides to the story.

Finally a quote from the last article (* I added the bold)

Quote:
All of this is to say that MWX creates a steep learning curve for all units involved – regardless of background or nationality. The Royal Marine 40 Commando participating in this year’s exercise was an exceptionally capable unit, and the U.S. units involved certainly were able to learn lessons from them about the use of sensors, logistic resupply and just plain old-fashioned ground reconnaissance. And, as I am sure that they would be among the first to acknowledge, 40 Commando – in common with all participating units – made plenty of mistakes. That is what exercises are for.
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Old December 5th, 2021, 12:35 PM

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Default Re: Trounced on home turf ?

Very cool. Thank you for the info. Now off to read the articles. Might be fodder for some cool scenarios in this stuff.
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Old December 5th, 2021, 01:24 PM
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Default Re: Trounced on home turf ?

If actual force composition could be found and where on Twentynine palms it took place in it could be interesting but methinks from the hints that have been dropped that elements of 40 Commando infiltrated to the rear and found their OPFOR HQ which is always a game-winner and a big embarrassment for that side of the exercise.

It would really suck to be the Captain in charge of that HQ's security..... ( really, really suck)

When a retired USMC Col. admits the other guys were "an exceptionally capable unit"...... they were. (with plenty of experience in ops like that )
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Old December 7th, 2021, 02:24 AM
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Fallout Re: Trounced on home turf ?

For what it's worth, I wish to point out there are no winners or losers in an exercise. How you train and the lessons you take away from that, will determine who the winners or losers are on the only place it matters, the battlefield. That's what we call "warfighting".

The ref. below will provide and hopefully fill in some holes from the refs already submitted. You won't get much about equipment, though you'll know who played and at what strength and mission.

This was not a normal run of the mill exercise; it was also a test in unit reorganization (Up & Down) for both the UK and USMC.

For the USMC that means Plan 2030.

For the UK, "Future Commando Force" (Program-Mine) and pre-deployment training under a new unit concept called Littoral Response Group (LRG) (South) to be tested in the Sinai next year.

And of course, how do these units work along the lines of "interoperability" or are we on the right track at this time.

"...40 Commando has the lead in creating LRG South, “which we’ve brought together here for the first time” along with sub-units including armored support and commando logistics."
https://news.usni.org/2021/12/06/u-s...ifornia-desert

In the USN putting the "mission" before the word exercise, i.e., LANTSUBASWEX '87 (Atlantic Submarine Anti-Submarine Warfare Exercise.) There was a real-world psychological benefit to doing this in case the Soviets showed up "uninvited".

The Cold War, ah, those were the days!?!

Regards,
Pat
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Old December 7th, 2021, 05:46 AM
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Default Re: Trounced on home turf ?

There are only "winners" in the red-top press mis-reporting something they half-understand picked up in some bar gossip.

The exercise will have demonstrated to those running it what tactics and techniques actually worked, and those that did not do so well. Exercises are a learning experience (if they arent the sort of scripted things where the result is pre-determined of course, but even those teach lessons in e.g. logistics if say those fall over running the pre-scripted master plan).

But the gutter press need "emotive" headlines to sell thier rag so "Ruritanian Airforce beats USAF, shlock horror!" in the Daily Fail. Meanwhile some specialist publication runs something more reasonable about how the Ruritanians did OK and won 3 out of 6 2 on 2 visual rules close in dogfights when visiting on a training mission but lost 5 out of 6 BVR scraps as their mig-21s were totally outclassed in that field with no long range missiles or radar.

Basically - dont get your news from the tabloids!
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