Counter-Battery Process?

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by scJazz

Probably not the first to bring this up but... any reason why unused Airstrikes can't act as CB? Kinda fixes that "whole longest range wins" thing doesn't it?

Of course it is possible to alter the game code to allow this. But I don't even want to think of the man-hours it would involve. And that's not even trying to take into consideration how the heck would you implement off-map anti-aircraft?

For my part in the mini campaign I've been working on (forever) I simply bought an HIMARS section and re-labeled it "Ctr Btty Air" and set it's reinforcement turn to 50 (the max allowed). For most scenarios that's longer then the turns the scenario lasts, for the others by turn 50 it has fired all it's ammo doing counter-battery before (well, 95% of the time) turn 50 so the player never gets the ability to lay a rocket cluster munition barrage. Works out pretty well if you ask me

[EOT]

Yes this makes sense to use air strikes to hunt and destroy Arty!.
That is what the Allies(U.S.) did during the Gulf War(1990). Once they had air superiority they went hunting for Iraqi Arty and CB'd with MLRS & Air strikes. The Allies were afraid of the Iraqi arty because they had base bleed ammunition and smooth bore arty with longer range capability. One of the reason's Gerald Bull was assassinated in 1990 for his work on an Iraqi Supergun.

A CB function for air strike formations a player/AI might have in SPMBT would have to occur automatically and would have to pass Air defence interception first. Unless a player/AI had air superiority than they should not be allowed to perform an Air Strike CB mission. To complete a CB mission you would have to intercept all the other sides CAP mission and strategic Air defence.

Maybe their could be 25% dice roll to see if shorter range off-map guns could complete a CB on a longer range guns?

I think Andy & Don would say there are to many what if's and it would not be in the scope/spirit of the original game.

[scJazz]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

Of course it is possible to alter the game code to allow this. But I don't even want to think of the man-hours it would involve. And that's not even trying to take into consideration how the heck would you implement off-map anti-aircraft?

For my part in the mini campaign I've been working on (forever) I simply bought an HIMARS section and re-labeled it "Ctr Btty Air" and set it's reinforcement turn to 50 (the max allowed). For most scenarios that's longer then the turns the scenario lasts, for the others by turn 50 it has fired all it's ammo doing counter-battery before (well, 95% of the time) turn 50 so the player never gets the ability to lay a rocket cluster munition barrage. Works out pretty well if you ask me

HEHEHEH

I was thinking about the coding required to pull off my idea while walking to the store.

Your plan is definitely best!

My idea would require some stunt like...
1) All Aircraft are assumed range 999 for CB
2) All OM Arty is assumed to have Area SAM for defense
3) Now run SAMs for defense
4) Assuming you aren't dead yet run CB Airstrike
4A) Perhaps some weapons aren't used like HARM or Mavericks

[Wdll]

I have a feeling we will see first the inclusion of alien races than counter battery performing airplanes.
Actually, I would prefer aliens to that.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Air strike capability simply won't work because I maintain a constant CAP over my off map Arty (At least a squadron of fast movers for every two platoons of Arty.), plus I maintain a STINGER platoon with helo support like equipped protecting each Arty platoon and I have an Area SAM section off map as well with all the previous units thus far mentioned for each arty platoon. Well that's crap and I'd say review your history of battlefield doctrine, expand the size of the arty units and that's about what you had during the Cold War minus the helos. Most studies showed, for what they're worth, that air power during that "projected" conflict except in the initial stage of attack and retaliation would be nullified. So anyway, now that I've spent my off map money in protecting my arty, I guess I can CB yours if I choose to now, after of course I buy my on map equipment, because that would require a software change to have two separate "accounts". I'm sure Andy and Don will get right on that. As has been mentioned you don't want it, don't use it! Limit the spending amount-great! Change your game settings for arty even better. Days like these make me thankful the AI understands the use of combined arms in a tactical situation to achieve a strategic victory if possible at the end of a generated long campaign. Since everyone else is asking for stuff and Christmas is around the corner, could you make the AI a little more intuitive? And please don't forget my off map CAP as I feel I'll be getting into my foxhole soon to prepare for any incoming (Can you slip in a DEEP underground off map bunker as well and I'll keep a CAP over it to.).

Aren't you glad there's not too many "bubbleheads" around we can tend to be so...rambunctious well annoying (Or worse would be better.) at times.

Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by EOT

That is what the Allies(U.S.) did during the Gulf War(1990). Once they had air superiority they went hunting for Iraqi Arty and CB'd with MLRS & Air strikes. The Allies were afraid of the Iraqi arty because they had base bleed ammunition and smooth bore arty with longer range capability. One of the reason's Gerald Bull was assassinated in 1990 for his work on an Iraqi Supergun.

Actually from what I know of Gulf I (I was working at the 2nd MarDiv HQ at the time) due to the USAF overall control of air assets it generally took longer to get an airstrike authorized then the window of opportunity for a strike (at least once the Iraqis learned to relocate their artillery 3 or 4 times a day) Air generally hunted targets of opportunity in their assigned "kill box". They did occasionally happen to spot artillery and bomb it. Close air support in the USMC sense was not permitted by USAF doctrine.

For the most part the MLRS (at least the ones assigned to 2nd MarDiv) worked hand-in-hand with the counter-battery radar to get targeting information. Frequently the radar fed the info to the MLRS and it fired a counter-battery barrage while the first Iraqi salvo was still in the air. I spoke to a survivor of one Iraqi 152mm battery and he said they'd keep a running vehicle nearby and yank the lanyard to fire a shell and run to the vehicle then drive like hell to get out of the impact area of the MLRS.

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

Aren't you glad there's not too many "bubbleheads" around we can tend to be so...rambunctious well annoying (Or worse would be better.) at times.

I think Andy & Don may prefer bubbleheads to jarheads at times

[EOT]

I guess that's one of the reasons they were surrendering to closest Allied units. You pull lanyard! No you pull lanyard!!

[runequester]

It'd be nice if off map batteries had some random variable in determining how far "off map" they are located. A battery won't always be located at the absolute furthest possible distance from the battle area after all.

Alternatively maybe abstract it by having some sort of penalty to the "experience check" for the unit wishing to perform counter battery, based on difference in range?

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I might be missing something here but if range was a factor in off map CB fire missions then how could the examples in Post #14 Item #1 have occurred? They represent only a fraction of such occurrences that have happened since I started playing the game through all the patches over the years. And CB is a part of my tactics as I go deeper into my generated campaigns typically consisting of 21 to 23 battles. As noted I have been CB fired on by 105mm off map against my 155mm off may units and have taken hits and returned the favor against larger caliber tubes the AI had. So by logical deduction one of two things is happening
1. Range doesn't matter for CB fire missions or 2. Something isn't working right on my game in the software program.
I know there have to be software parameters set up to "lock in" the off map area and it might be closer then we think because I thought there was a bug fix about 2 to 4 years ago that fixed something affecting the AI off map reinforcements getting destroyed by random planned or arty directed against on map AI units that were close to the edge of the map causing inadvertent damage or destruction to reinforcement units off map in the adjacent hexes at the point of entry, which I've done a handful of times myself by pure dumb luck.

Suhiir-You might be right about the Marine thing, but have you ever had Don raise the surrender flag to you!?! But I really think the last thing Don wants us to do is make it a race to find out which branch is worse!?! We both might want to consider the following then!! Don and us !! Seems when the flag was raised I did the same thing must of been that NH-90 helo I put in last years or previous years list for
NEW ZEALAND!?!

To everyone have a good night!

Regards,
Pat

[Griefbringer]

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

1. The assumption is made that off map arty then is placed at the extreme edge of it's range therefore it cannot be counter battery fired on by tubes of a lesser range from your opponent, AI or you firing at them because x-arty has a better range then y-arty. Well I guess my 155mm current Thai units must be hitting someone else's 122mm and larger caliber tubes then the AI Chinese opponents they thought they where conducting CB fire missions on. By the same token in the past I've had to make up my losses in my arty units to the same issue of losing them to CB fire to include on one rare occasion from a 105mm Battery, now that's embarrassing because 98% of the time all I use is 155mm or close equivalent depending on the country I'm playing. So if range mattered how can this happen, unless I'm playing a Secret Squirrel version of the game such as TSO 5.5 Rev. A-CB?

This is a bit difficult to comment on without knowing the specifics, like which 122 mm and 155 mm tubes are in question? There are a number of different guns of those calibers available, with varying ranges.

Even the humble 105 mm pieces come in a number of variants, with differing ranges. For example South African OOB has one with game range of 220. That OOB has also a number of other weapons with quite impressive ranges, even their 120 mm mortars have a range of 205, and some of their 155 mm guns have range of 242!