Juggernaut

krpeters · #1 June 3rd, 2012, 12:46 AM

So, I searched the messageboard but I didn't come up with much. Obviously Juggernauts exist and people use them, but how effective are they in a real game?

I ask because I've been playing around with them in SP, and it seems like a ridiculous number (around 100 or so) are needed to flood the world with dominion. And even then it takes years to do the job. Am I correct in thinking that in an MP game, you'd get squashed pretty quickly if you try to win that way? Or is there a trick to get it to work?

Grimgor · #2 June 3rd, 2012, 03:51 AM

As far as I've read (somethingawful.com has a huge ongoing AAR where it is explained in detail, albeit for multiplayer) domkilling the entire map is a long and slow process. Furthermore, those who do it are blood-saccing nations and using overwhelming amounts of temples (possibly strategically placed Inquisitors). I am making guesses here, but it seems that while Juggernauts would no doubt help, they're not as good as Jade Knife-wielding sacrificers.

All that being said, everyone is constantly working against your own Dominion spread, which does mean that the spread only goes so fast. Furthermore, as they're only available late game, I think that makes them of situational use. Bring a ton of them with an immortal SC pretender and a blood-saccer who stops every now and then to build a temple and do his thing. That way, you'd have some assurance of fighting on your own dominion, letting you go nuts with bonus hp and your pretender is not going to die. However, them being late game, I think most human players would have the means of sniping them.

Soyweiser · #3 June 3rd, 2012, 03:12 PM

I never tried a massive domkilling dom push with them, and any blood saccers will have your dominion for lunch, bit without them in the game it is just a few more dominion each turn. They spread dom like a prophet would. Not that much.

Of course, for 15 astral gems you could get a lot better stuff. So they could be a bit overpriced at the moment.

Of course, I did use them in the first game I won as jotunheim. But only because I had 303 vampire lords, and my enemy only had dominion 4 or so and there where no blood sac nations anymore, and I had a few spare astral mages with gems that had no other use. (Astral corruption+BoT).

brxbrx · #4 June 3rd, 2012, 07:35 PM

I imagine that in MP, 25 pearls is too big an investment.

But in SP, I set up a game as MA Pythium where I have two dozen of them accompanying my pretender. The effect on dominion isn't paritcularly noticeable.

Micah · #5 June 4th, 2012, 02:37 PM

Yeah, they are generally worthless unless you're willing to spam 100+ of them, which I was actually doing in one game while gem-gens were still a thing, although my opponents ended up conceding before the dom-push really took off. I also had a large Dominion advantage on my opponents in that case, and blood sac would have been much easier, but I didn't have access to it, so I made do.

brxbrx · #6 June 4th, 2012, 02:58 PM

On the plus side, they're hard to kill and have trample. This would be better if they weren't so slow, though.

Soyweiser · #7 June 4th, 2012, 04:42 PM

And they have a bad random event if you ever put them in a province with militia

.

brxbrx · #8 June 4th, 2012, 05:48 PM

Really? I gotta see that!

Hrum · #9 June 4th, 2012, 06:43 PM

"The chains of your Juggernaut burst when it was being pulled uphill. It accidentally crushed a young member of the militia. The event was seen as an evil omen and faith in you has decreased."

I would characterize that as one of the fun flavor events. Unless you're backed into your last fort using juggernauts to try and hold up your few remaining candles against a dom kill, this isn't all that bad. And in that scenario, I think you've already lost.

Or maybe you decided to GoR some militia chaff guy and turn him into your prophet? Nope, the juggernaut still did you a favor.

Now if this event happened frequently it might be a fun way to get rid of some those annoying militia that your luck scales keep saddling you with. Your dominion goes down in the bad event due to the disappointment that only 1 militia was crushed. There should be a corresponding good event in which 10 militia are killed and your dominion increases.

krpeters · #10 June 4th, 2012, 08:15 PM

Hmmm, this could be an opportunity for a real flavor improvement to the juggernaut: give the juggernaut a popkill effect. Every turn your loyal subjects throw themselves under its wheels in religious fervor and die. Then increase the dom-generating effect to be equal to blood sacrificing. It'd make it more useful, but dangerous. (The dom-effect would have to cease if the province runs out of population -- can that be done?)