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  #51  
Old January 12th, 2022, 12:36 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
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Default Re: Poland OOB

I was going to deal with Rosomaks in detail next week after gathering some more info, but since they have been invoked...

Quote:
Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH View Post
To the ROSOMAK-S yes, 2 SPIKE-LR teams.

However there just under 350 ROSOMAK armed with the Oto Melara 30 mm Hitfist-30P turret and it is my understanding those turrets will be modified to carry a 2xSPIKE-LR launcher. This was discussed as early as 2015 along with a new unmanned turret.
Rosomak-S is just unarmed transport vehicle for 2 Spike crews. However, I haven't figured out yet in which formations it is used.

There were plans to merge Hitfist manned turret with Spike from the beginning, but somehow it hasn't been done and lately there are no talks on this subject anymore, especially, that Hitfist is already ageing design, and needing Italian parts.
But indeed, new ZSSW-30 Polish unmanned turred was developed in a meantime, with newest 30 mm Bushmaster (with an option for programable ammo), UKM-2000 CMG and two Spike launchers. Recently I've read, that it might enter production in 2023.

Therefore, units 679,680 Rosomak 2 should represent the vehicle used (hopefully) from 2023. No other changes are needed (unless we want to create newest generation TI). They have 4 Spikes - I don't know if there will be reloads. The name "Rosomak 2" will be most probably wrong, but might stay as for now.


Both as for basic 207 Rosomak and uparmoured 681 Rosomak 1M, an interesting detail is, that they should have no desert camo in the beginning - there should be plain green 3541 icon and maybe winter camo. Only at the end of 2009 the main staff allowed to repaint Rosomaks used in Afghanistan in sand brown camo

Also, multicolor camo 3543 was introduced on all Rosomaks during their service, but I haven't figured yet when so far (say, 2010 as well). Correction: after research, basic Rosomaks had multicolor camo from the beginning, only uparmoured ones were green.

So I propose to change desert icon of 207 Rosomak to green 3541 and make it available until 12/09, then add the second one with 3543/3544/3542 camo.

Same for 681 Rosomak M1 - I suggest to create one unit with green 3541 camo, and another with 3543/3544/3542 from around 1/10.


667 Rosomak-Rak - name should be just Rak (or SMK-120 Rak). Rak (lobster) is the vehicles's name.

Last edited by Pibwl; January 13th, 2022 at 12:08 PM..
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  #52  
Old January 17th, 2022, 06:10 PM
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Default Re: Poland OOB

I just try insert all info from different sources and also include PIBWL sugestions about rosomak different versions into OOB so here is proposition of changes inside polish OOB.

I checked version's of rosomak with small MG towers there existing three variants. So Don has right they are but has not nice pictures which I added propably need also new icons which my prepare in not so long time.
  • M2 early variant used in Chad 2008 only with ukm2000
  • M3 only with ukm2000 / with 40mm Mk19 GL and ukm2000 / 12.7mm WKM-B & ukm2000 the same with version M3M

there are also different FO vehicles variants etc. I prepared this in OOB98 but can be easy copied to Polish OOB02 I looked to put this in free slots. I also add diffrent class for Rosomak S to be only transporter for spike teams snd add diffrent class for Rosomak 2 with ZSSW tower and spikes because read article that when they will be introduced in 2024 this new vehicles will go one peer platoon of older rosomak propably so I used class 220 Heavy MRV APC
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File Type: zip Polish Rosomak APC variants OOB and lbm.zip (924.0 KB, 61 views)

Last edited by blazejos; January 17th, 2022 at 06:30 PM..
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  #53  
Old January 23rd, 2022, 02:46 PM

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Default Re: Poland OOB

To finnish with Rosomaks:

681 Rosomak M1 - might actually start at 7/07 (now 8/07) - first uparmoured vehicles entered action in Afghanistan in late July already.

Formations: Rosomak IFV

I've found information about platoon structure and it needs an adjustment, to lower its manpower. The info is taken from one article in Polish "Raport" magazine in 2013 and the other in MOD magazine "Przeglad Sil Zbrojnych" (Armed Forces Reviev) 4/2014, written by a battalion commander (Lt Col).

Current unit 337 Mech Rifle Sec has 8 men - unfortunately, Polish sections carried in Rosomaks have only up to 6 men. It could be 7 only if we artificially split platoon HQ (4). Weapons are correct: UKM-2000 LMG, Pallad GL, RPG-7.

(In fact, the section has 6 or even 5 men, which we should disregard as some abberation The 2013 article says about 5 men, but the battalion commander says "5 or 6", and complains, that the section is "tragically weak" comparing to US one, in terms of riflemen not manning team weapons).

These sections are carried also on BWP-1 (BMP-1), but according to other article in Armed Forces Review 1/2015, sections on BMP are the same. I don't know unfortunately, when 6-men sections were adopted, so 1/100 should remain.

Owing to smaller sections, in Afghanistan Rosomaks were used with only 6 seats to make more room, but I believe we don't need that.


Form. 344 MRV IFV Pl (-) consists of 4 Rosomaks and 4 sections 337. It should be 3 sections and a support section.
The support section consists of:
- 60 mm mortar section (with two men and one mortar #30 - needs new unit)
- 40mm MK19 AGL (unit 097)
I have no idea though, what was used before an advent of Mk19s, which was the first weapon of such class in Poland (they first appeared in 11/07, but for vehicle armament at first, and I also don't know when they were distributed to mechanized infantry).

The article on BMP-1 says, that in a support section it carries five men with 60 mm mortar and 40 mm grenade launcher (presumably rifle-mounted Pallad), so maybe it was the same - and unit 339 Scouts will do? So, there should be earlier Rosomak platoon, until, say 2008, with 60 mm mortar and scouts?

Also from Armed Forces Reviev one might learn, that for "several years", for unknown strange reasons, there are no snipers anymore in mechanized platoons...

BTW: good photos of Polish 60 mm LM-60D mortar are https://www.konflikty.pl/wp-content/...5%BAdzierz.jpg, https://cdn-legacy.defence24.pl/defe...eeccec13ce.png (concerning also unit 508 60mm Mortar Sec)



Form. 339 MRV IFV Pl (+) - similar, but differing in Spike section. In fact, Spike missiles are not used on platoon level in Poland - only in battalion's support company (http://dziennikzbrojny.pl/artykuly/a...e-tylko-zestaw, https://www.jednostki-wojskowe.pl/in...spike&catid=16 )
Therefore, this platoon is redundant (as a result we don't need "(-)" in 344 MRV IFV Pl (-), but on the other hand, there should be some difference in name between mechanized infantry platoon and sole Rosomak platoon 329)

Form. 336 MRV IFV Co is correct (three platoons, no extras).
The first article linked above says, that usually AT section with Rosomak-S and two Spikes is attached to the company, but it belongs to support company structure.
BTW, the photo there shows, that Rosomak-S really has no even a pintle MG... (icon and photo like unit 448 Rosomak CC - the photo is the same btw).


Formations: Rosomak APC
Concerning 217 MRV APC class units: 208,672,673- Rosomak M3, 669,670,671 Rosomak M3M.

[deleted - I'll re-edit this section to make it simpler]

Last edited by Pibwl; January 23rd, 2022 at 08:58 PM..
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  #54  
Old January 24th, 2022, 05:33 PM

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Default Re: Poland OOB

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post
Both as for basic 207 Rosomak and uparmoured 681 Rosomak 1M, an interesting detail is, that they should have no desert camo in the beginning - there should be plain green 3541 icon and maybe winter camo. Only at the end of 2009 the main staff allowed to repaint Rosomaks used in Afghanistan in sand brown camo
...

Same for 681 Rosomak M1 - I suggest to create one unit with green 3541 camo, and another with 3543/3544/3542 from around 1/10.
Rosomak icons

I've found an article in "Nowa Technika Wojskowa" 4/2010, which claims, that green vehicles already in Afghanistan are not repainted, but only new vehicles will be painted sand. It coincides with introduction of RPG nets (M1M and M3M variants), so there is no need to create new M1 and M3 units with sand desert camo and please disregard my earlier suggestion. M1 may remain green, M1M may be just sand, however there are photos of green vehicles equipped with new sand RPG nets as well.

So, unit 681 Rosomak M1 should just receive green icon 3541 for desert.

Units 208, 672, 673 Rosomak M3 should have green 3567 icon both as standard and desert one (they are not supposed to be used in Europe, so they received standard green camo, used for Chad and Afghanistan missions)

On the other hand, basic unit 207 Rosomak should have standard multicolor icon 3543 and green desert icon 3541

Unit 679 Rosomak 2 also should have standard multicolor icon 3550.

Rosomak armour:

There is also new information about armour. It is confirmed in newest articles, that uparmoured Rosomaks M1, M1M, M3 and M3M have composite multilayer additional front plate proof against RPG-7. Polish author Jarosław Wolski, specializing in armour issues, claims even that it is equivalent to 500 mm RHA given its inclination ("Nowa Technika Wojskowa" 8/21). The same will be for hypothetical uparmoured unit 680 Rosomak 2M.
Against AP ammo, it is said to be proof against 30mm 2A42, so it might be 9 instead of 8. On the other hand, front turret was not uparmoured, only sides and rear, bringing protection to Stanag level IV (front: level III+, see below).

Variants with RPG screens (M1M, M3M) have also screened part of rear hull (without doors).

On the other hand, armour of ordinary 207 Rosomak should be a bit weaker.
Hull front is Stanag level IV (5 seems correct), but hull and turret sides are level III (against 7.62mm AP, so 4 is too much). Turret front is level III+ (against 12.7 mm, so 5 is too much).
The same hull armour should have other vehicles on this chassis: 448 Rosomak CC, 579 Rosomak Ammo, 667 Rosomak-Rak, 679 Rosomak 2.

Last edited by Pibwl; January 24th, 2022 at 07:59 PM..
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  #55  
Old January 24th, 2022, 07:35 PM

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Default Re: Poland OOB

Formations: Rosomak APC (continued)
Concerning class 217 MRV APC units:
208,672,673 Rosomak M3,
669,670,671 Rosomak M3M.

First of all, it should be noted, that Rosomak M3 were not conceived as APC, but were only a stop-gap measure to supplement Rosomak IFVs on foreign missions, mostly as transport and logistics vehicles. Initially Polish Army planned APC variant Rosomak-1, but couldn't choose an unmanned turret, so the program was cancelled and the Army remained with over 100 produced chassis, waiting for further decisions. It was decided to arm a number with provisional open mountings and sent to Chad and Afghanistan mssions. Initially these units in the game were meant to be Rosomak-1 APC (changed in 2012 https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/show...t=48222&page=9 ), and apparently inherited its formations.

Units 208, 672, 673 Rosomak M3 (uparmoured) should start in "late 2008" [now 6/08], according to newly found detailed article - only then problems with heavy armoured gun ring OSS-D were solved. These gun rings should have Stanag III armour only (against 7.62mm AP), so now it's much too much (same for Rosomak M3M units).

Already from 6/08 there were used vehicles with ordinary armour and lighter OSS-M gun ring, for Chad peacekeeping mission, so they could be added (12.7mm version would be enough). They aren't named, but possibly the name Rosomak M2, mentioned in several places, applies to them (otherwise Rosomak OSS-M). The color was plain green, and they were used until end of 2009.

As for Rosomak M3, I suggest to end them with an advent of M3M, introducing anti-Heat nets (7/10).

As for M3M, I suggest to end these MRV APC units totally by mid-2014, when the mission in Afghanistan ended. They are not used by regular units in Poland and I assume they are stored, awaiting conversion with 30 mm ZZSW-30 turrets or to other specialized variants. There is little probability, that new foreign mission will emerge, with a need to send provisionally armed patrol vehicles.

(edited: in 2020 it was ordered to modify three M3 to some unspecified role, probably connected with command vehicles https://milmag.pl/dodatkowe-rosomaki...ecjalistyczna/ . However, it is not clear, if they are meant to remain M3, or rather be rebuilt to some other variant. Anyway, I think we don't need M3 after 2014, even if there would be some accidental usage. Alternatively, we could remove combat platoons with infantry by that date, and leave only formations with sole vehicles.)

(BTW, as for units 670, 673 with 40mm AGL - additional UKM-2000 is not CMG, but ordinary MMG on improvised pintle mount, if it matters - a field modification, known from photographs. It may even supersede a variant with sole 40mm AGL, and eg. 672 Rosomak M3 might be converted to M2 mentioned above)


Formations using class MRV APC:
252 Mec Bn Spt MRV - Available: 06/108-12/125
343 MRV ATGM Pl - Available: 06/108-12/125
345 MRV ATGM Sec - Available: 06/108-12/125
- ATGMs should be carried by unarmed Rosomak-S. But 4-launcher formation 252 seems redundant: primary formation is 2-launcher section (345), and we have also a whole AT platoon with 6 launchers (343).

330 MRV APC Pl - Available: 06/108-12/125
332 MRV APC - Available: 06/108-12/125
- correct formations of sole APC (however, in case of 330, it might be worthy to mix MG and AGL armed vehicles, for one period of time at least)

334 MRV Company (+) - Available: 06/108-12/125
335 MRV Company - Available: 06/108-12/125
340 MRV Platoon - Available: 06/108-12/125
- MRV companies are redundant, because these vehicles were not supposed to be used in companies.
As for MRV Platoon, I suggest to create a mixed Afghanistan patrol platoon, with two Rosomak M1 IFV and two Rosomak M3. It might be called eg. MRV ISAF Plt - so one could choose all-IFV platton or such mixed platoon for Afghanistan ISAF scenarios. As with IFV above, there are three sections and a support section of 60mm mortar and 40 mm AGL.
Again, we could mix two kinds of Rosomak M3 in a template (optimally, two platoons for different periods, the second with Rosomak M3M).

341 MRV Bn Spt Pkg - Available: 06/108-12/125
359 98mm MRV Mtr - Available: 06/108-12/125
- 98 mm mortars are towed by trucks only, not Rosomaks, and we have a formation with mortars towed by utiliy vehicles.


One last thing: photos of Rosomak M3 an M3M don't show these variants, which should have big open armoured gun ring.
M3 is here: https://modelwork.pl/uploads/monthly...e0bccf2884.jpg , https://modelwork.pl/uploads/monthly...01e2bbcdc5.jpg , https://www.rosomaksa.pl/kto-rosomak-z-obrotnica.html, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...anistan_27.jpg
I will have to scan M3M photos, because they are not in the net.


To finnish with Rosomaks:
Rosomak S should be created for Spike sections, using 448 Rosomak CC as a template (with corrected basic armour). Class 23 APC (wheel) is free at that time. Date should be around 6/108 (like formations 252, 343, 345 - date more/less correct). It can swim. (It has popular nickname "Spike-o-bus" )

BTW: Rosomaks with basic armour can swim 10 km/h, so speed:2 might be too low.

448 Rosomak CC - FO vehicle. There exists such vehicle Rosomak AWR, for Rak mortars - hopefully, introduced in 2022. It will be armed in #98 UKM-2000 CMG,

(597 Rosomak Ammo - there are no Rosomak ammo carriers, and there are no such plans)

667 Rosomak-Rak - it has no machine gun, especially CMG. It has laser RF. There is no mention, if it can swim, but photos don't show screws...
(I've already written, that the name should be Rak or M120K Rak or SMK-120 Rak)

679, 680 Rosomak 2/2M - ammunition of ZSSW-30 turret is going to be 400 (20+20 - now 18+18).

I hope that's all.

Last edited by Pibwl; January 25th, 2022 at 05:36 PM..
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  #56  
Old January 31st, 2022, 04:03 PM

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Default Re: Poland OOB

Accidentally, I found detailed articles about Czechoslovak RPGs in Polish Army - and there are some inaccuracies, also in their performance:

Czech P-27 RPG was used in Poland from 6/53 until mid-1960s (say, 1963), in 2600 pieces - a forgotten weapon in Poland nevertheless, replaced by Soviet RPG-2. I'm attaching Polish photo.

There is already weapon #27, but its range should be 150 m [now: 2] (according to Polish trials it was "very accurate especially up to 125 m").
On the other hand, penetration (tested) was only 150-170 mm (now 25). It also concerns other users, especially Czechoslovakia (weapon #15 P27 Pancerovka).

Unit 312 Scouts using P-27 should be available from 6/53 at the earliest (now 1/052) - earlier unit 303 needs extending.

---
372 RPG-2 Team - used only from late 1957 (say 6/57) [now 6/54] according to article in "Poligon" 6/2013

A couple of other units using RPG-2 needs correcting as well:
291 - Special Forces - Available 06/054 (unit 290 should be extended then)
310 - Rifle Section - Available 01/055 (earlier infantry overlaps this period)
316 - Rifle Section - Available 01/055
317 - Rifle Section - Available 01/055
318 - Scouts - Available 01/055 (unit 312 should be extended then)
386 - Naval Infantry - Available 01/054
451 - Ski Scouts - Available 01/055 (unit 450 should be extended then)
461 - Ski Riflemen - Available 01/055
768 - SMG Section - Available 01/053
782 - Motorcycle Sec - Available 01/052 (unit 781 should be extended then)
783 - Motorcycle Sec - Available 01/055

---
Surprisedly, Czech T-21 Tarasnice RCL was also available from 6/55 until early 1960s (say, 1961) - totally unknown weapon in Poland, although quite a number (410) were bought and kept in reserve for tank hunters ("Poligon" 3/2014). The same class I think, but radio must be 3. I'm attaching Polish pictures.

There might be copied Czech unit 366 T-21 Team, but there should be no HE ammo (also for Czechoslovakia)!

Czech weapon #158 82mm Tarasnice has range 6, but its maximum aimed range was in fact 600 m (with dispersion up to 0.8m on this range). It concerns also Egyptian weapon #159.

(Czech unit 375 T21 RCL HE and weapon #157 82mm T21 RCL HE with range 56 raise doubts - despite maximum range of the grenade was 2800 m http://www.csla.cz/zbrane/pancerovky/t21.htm , but I haven't found any info, that it was useful on any range above 600 m. It was direct fire weapon with no sights to shoot in ballistic way (both iron and optical sights were scaled up to 600 m) and used HEAT ammo with only some HE effect. According to "Poligon" article, HE ammunition was envisaged, but there is no info if it ever entered production)


---
BTW, pictures for Special Forces are messed - I'm attaching proper propositions:
289,293 Special Forces - picture is AKSU-74, not PM-84 SMG

290 Special Forces - photo is hard to identify, not PPS SMG (and not special forces, judging from field caps)

292 Special Forces - picture is PPSh, not PPS SMG

292 Special Forces - picture is PPSh, not PM-63 SMG

294,297 Special Forces - picture is AKSU-74, not Beryl SMG

I'm also attaching the only good photo of Rosomak M3M that I have found, and photo of unit 129 Yak 9P (also the only good ones)
Attached Files
File Type: zip Polish pictures.zip (1.54 MB, 22 views)

Last edited by Pibwl; February 1st, 2022 at 11:39 AM..
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  #57  
Old February 1st, 2022, 11:57 AM
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Default Re: Poland OOB

Save yourself the time and trouble of making LBM's. There is no easy way to say how unusable they are for the most part
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Old February 3rd, 2022, 02:52 PM

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Default Re: Poland OOB

To end with Poland, misc comments:

AFV:

402 T-72M1 - it's pretty lame "modernization", but from late 2019 (say 1/20) there are introduced modified T-72M1R with TI vision. Sadly, fire control and all the rest are the same. (I'm leaving aside the gun, which in fact on all Polish T-72s should remain on late 1980s level..).

541 Wz.77 Dana - better name is just Dana. "Wz.77" alone doesn't make much sense (it is: "armatohaubica wz. 1977" - "gun-howitzer 1977 pattern"), but this official designation is rarely used.
In last years they were modernized to Dana-T, fitted to modern artillery command and control (C3ISTAR) system Topaz, but I'm not sure if it has any impact on single unit's stats.

578 BRDM-2 Szakal - armour should be the same as basic version - only difference was armament, sand camouflage and air conditioning for Iraqi mission...
It might have better survivability, than ordinary BRDM-2 [3], because it has auxiliary wheels removed and side doors added (the same for units 570-572, 576-577)

610 Osa-AKM-P1 - I don't know if it matters in case of SP-SAM, but it also has laser RF

202 ZSU-23-MP Biala - it was rare vehicle at first - only one prototype was used in the army from 2005 [1/05], next two were modified in mid-2006, 3 in 2007... I'm afraid a significant number appeared around 2010 or later.


Guns

91,92 122mm Field Gun - of course it is pure Field Howitzer

174 122mm Gun Sec - photo is not used in Poland post-war cannon. Poland used only wartime A-19 (later modified with pneumatic wheels). There is original A-19 photo 41091 (Finnish).

204, 206 98mm Mortar - delivered only in a course of 2004 (say, 10/04) (now 10/03)

551 85mm AT-gun - photo is 100mm gun, should be 29428

564 S-125 Newa-SC,
669 SA-3 Neva SC
- names should be unified. I can't verify dates at the moment, but according to one article from 1996, the first one should rather be S-125 Newa-S (self-propelled), and only the second one S-125 Newa-SC ("cyfrowy" = digital).

For a sake of consistency, 048 S-125 Neva and 041 S-125 Neva M might be renamed Polish name "Newa" and "Newa-M".


I haven't browsed all units, but that's more than enough...
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Old February 28th, 2022, 04:14 PM
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Default Re: Poland OOB

Quote:
Poland in May signed a deal to purchase 24 landmark Bayraktar TB2 armed unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) from Turkish drone magnate Baykar
......I'm sure there is at least 2 people willing to tell me if these will be armed and if so, with what
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Old February 28th, 2022, 07:35 PM
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Default Re: Poland OOB

Looking of this article https://zbiam-pl.translate.goog/arty..._x_tr_pto=wapp I will said that are laser guided bombs Roketsan MAM-L i MAM-C of Turkish production. I spouse the same was buy by Ukraine meaby?
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