Niefelheim vs Hinnom - Page 2

mrlich · #11 May 19th, 2012, 11:06 PM

Do the lords of civilization have the same pop-eating mechanics as the recruitable Hinnom giants have?

Admiral_Aorta · #12 May 20th, 2012, 02:06 AM

maybe you should summon one and find out!

Soyweiser · #13 May 23rd, 2012, 01:30 PM

Or use the wayback machine on the wiki or Edi's DB to check.

mrlich · #14 May 23rd, 2012, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

Or use the wayback machine on the wiki or Edi's DB to check.

Didn't find them in Edi's DB. Did not find wayback machine. Do not have enough blood magic to summon. Wondering if they're worth it.

Admiral_Aorta · #15 May 24th, 2012, 01:21 AM

debug mods are cool

rdonj · #16 May 24th, 2012, 01:39 AM

We have already told you that they're worth it. So let's try again. They're worth it. Especially in MP. In SP they're just overkill. They are, in fact, so powerful that it should be almost literally impossible to lose one in SP. And if you do lose one, it's your fault, because you should not be capable of losing them to anything the AI can throw at you. But summon them and see. Also, I don't know what version of edi's database you're using, but I can find them clearly and easily listed under Grigori in the latest version.

Doo · #17 May 25th, 2012, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrlich

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

Or use the wayback machine on the wiki or Edi's DB to check.

Didn't find them in Edi's DB. Did not find wayback machine. Do not have enough blood magic to summon. Wondering if they're worth it.

As I stated at the start, it all comes down to if you like chariots or not. Whipping those around you into a fury and then seeing where the ride takes you, nothing like chariots for a bit of fun.

mrlich · #18 May 26th, 2012, 10:16 PM

I'm finding Niefelheim with a good N8E9 bless strategy to be more effective than Hinnom. Basically, Hinnom does not let you mass any sacred troops or even high level sacred researchers without catastrophic population devouring effects. Even their only sacred non-commander devours population. Pretty soon the population in that province gets really upset and finally becomes extinct. That's pretty catastrophic for a nation with really expensive sacred troops on which you're supposed to rely. So you're left with leading your armies with cyclops pretender and one or two sacred giants, one of whom you prophet. Anymore and it becomes a micromanaging battle to keep your population alive. No more than 1 giant per province!

It's just too long a wait for Lords of Civilization, which is a really high blood summon. And since you picked N and E for bless, you have to empower all the way from 2-3 blood magic skill which takes forever, not to mention research blood magic to the high levels.

With Niefelheim, you can start massing the niefel giants and jarls from turn 2.

Admiral_Aorta · #19 May 26th, 2012, 11:48 PM

Hinnom are perfectly viable as a scales nation, you're not forced to use the sacreds.

rdonj · #20 May 27th, 2012, 12:53 AM

As admiral aorta said hinnom is perfectly viable as a scales nation. You have access to all magic paths except for water natively, so there's no need for a rainbow pretender. And growth 3 will help significantly with the eating everything problem and help power their blood hunting. There's also no strict *need* to recruit lots of their sacred researchers... kohen are a lot less useful magic-wise than ammi are, you should think of them more as thugs, although obviously they're better at this with a bless.

Further, there is no need to use the sacred troops of either nation. Niefel giants can be very powerful when massed together, but it's too expensive to buy them in numbers that way, and niefel jarls can do the job as well. A single jarl is enough to take most indy provinces, and two can take any but the most painful. So there's no need in the early game to build niefel giants. The same goes for hinnom giants for the most part, except that their troop sacred isn't as good. You *can* use them, and you may consider buying one on the first turn when you can't buy the commander version. But afterwards it's much more useful to buy the commanders instead.

The existence of the grigori is immaterial to all of this. Grigori are a late game summon, and they are stupidly powerful whether you have a strong bless for them or not. So no, you won't be using them for a while, and you can't design your nation solely around their existence. But when you can make them, they are 100% worth their cost. The recruitable SCs of either nation have nothing on the grigori. Just think of them as what they are - late game SCs.

Also why are you leading your armies with national commanders instead of indy commanders?