Man: A Bless nation in CBM 1.92?

[Corinthian]

Sooo... You count your pretender as a national caster? Or? Because there is no way for MA Mans mages to cast GfH with native mages.

Keep in mind that every magic path you put on your pretender have a opportunity cost in the form of what you could have spent the points on otherwise.

[Shardphoenix]

Sooo... You count your pretender as a national caster? Or? Because there is no way for MA Mans mages to cast GfH with native mages.

I`m talking about Bandars.

[thejeff]

Originally Posted by BewareTheBarnacleGoose

That's true, I hadn't thought of that. But they aren't SO vulnerable that Mictlan shouldn't use them; they are its best mages, after all.

On a related note, does Magic Duel always target the strongest astral mage?

I'm about 95% sure Magic Duel always targets the strongest astral mage. Highest path, not biggest or most hp.

[BewareTheBarnacleGoose]

Originally Posted by thejeff

I'm about 95% sure Magic Duel always targets the strongest astral mage. Highest path, not biggest or most hp.

I agree that it would make sense, but it doesn't seem to be true. After I made that post, I tested a bunch of S1 magic duelers against a few coutal and turkey mages, and turkeys were targeted too, so Im thinking it's either random, or based on some other variable. Perhaps the deliciousness of the target?

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by thejeff

I'm about 95% sure Magic Duel always targets the strongest astral mage. Highest path, not biggest or most hp.

Yeah this is wrong. Magic duel seems to hit very random targets. As in, size 6 s4 mages can be decoyed by size 2 s1 mages levels of random. When the s4 mages are closer to the enemy. So don't rely on it hitting one thing or another, it will pick and choose itself.

[Shardphoenix]

So, to sum it up - Wardens are so good because they are meant to be used with only a minor bless, for taking a major bless for them means you`ve just shot yourself in the leg.

[Torgon]

Originally Posted by Shardphoenix

So, to sum it up - Wardens are so good because they are meant to be used with only a minor bless, for taking a major bless for them means you`ve just shot yourself in the leg.

So I'm not sure that sums it up at all. Refer back to my earlier post.

Most of the discussion since then has been about the relative strength of Man vs. the other bless nations like bandar, miclan, van etc. Theses guys are stronger than man PERIOD. Bless or no bless. They have more options, better diversity, better summons, better mages, better thugs, etc. With players of equal skill and equal luck man is probably going to loose whether it has a rainbow or whether it has a bless.

But the question you're asking is a completely different one. Your asking the question of what version of man is better, the one with a bless or the one without. Just because both are weaker than these other nations doesn't necessarily mean the bless version of man is weaker than the version of man with a rainbow pretender. Once again go back to my earlier post, what are you really trading off between the bless version of man and the rainbow version of man?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
So what do you really give up going for a bless strat rather than a rainbow?

Not mitigated by indi's
60 Gem Empowerment for Air mother - assuming you don't get an A4 random

Potentially mitigated by indi's
30 Gem Empowerment for an E mother to get earth rolling. Once again assuming you don't get an E2 random.
Guaranteed Astral Access
Guaranteed Death Access
Guaranteed Fire Access

The bottom line is that you're going to find at least a couple of the last category on indi's, especially if you expand fast. So the question really comes down to whether or not you think a strong bless on the wardens is worth 60 air gems and missing a couple of the 2nd category. It's true that if you don't find any indi mages then you're somewhat screwed. But if you do happen on some wizards, or metal orders, or moon mages, or even just some lizard men and some raptors you'll be much better off.
------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't think its necessarily clear at all which one is a stronger bet. I think, as I said, that its more about variance. Find some good magic diversity on indies from some rapid expansion fueled by blessed wardens and you'll do very well. Don't find any and you're going to loose and loose very badly. If instead you go with a rainbow pretender, man will preform somewhat below average almost all the time, but you'll be guaranteed at least a decent showing before being eliminated. Since man is a weak nation to begin with going with the high variance strategy at least gives you some probability of wining. Going with the rainbow ensures that you'll preform at a middling level in almost every game.

[Shardphoenix]

But if you do happen on some wizards, or metal orders, or moon mages

And how big is a chance for you to get those without a rainbow pretender sitesearching? Remember, without a pretender you can reliably search only for full N, full A, 1W (full W after you hit const6) and 1E. Poison glades (D access), Tower of the Silver Order (Air version), Tower of the Iron Order (Earth version and only with manual sitesearch) - but that`s about it, I think.

[Shangrila00]

That's the thing though, Man doesn't have trouble expanding or fighting early game. Man has superb regular troops, and always did, even before CBM made the knights and avalon knights useable. Wardens don't inherently change the dynamic, especially as they are just as resource intensive as Man's regulars. Unlike, say, Eagle Warriors, or Ashdod/Eriu's sacred thugs/SCs, Wardens start petering out in the midgame same as most sacreds. Earlier actually, since trying to bless a large Warden army other than the one with your prophet is horrible, and you can forget complex scripting.

Putting a heavy bless on Man basically exaggerates Man's existing strong early, weak later characteristics. Especially the W9 bless. At least E9 is good for the sacred mages later. And I'm not convinced an army of high blessed Wardens supported by regulars (and Wardens still need regular support even with high bless) is all that much stronger than an army of regulars supported by rainbow blessed Wardens.

[Corinthian]

The thing is, if you are not going with a strong bless you might as well expand with knights, because then you can use the limited commander recruitment slot in the capitol to recruit mages instead of priests. Knights can be commanded by indy commanders after all.