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Old April 4th, 2020, 01:52 AM
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Suhiir Suhiir is offline
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Default Re: WinSPMBT version 10.0 - 14.0 Consolidation patch ( 2020 )

Originally Posted by DRG View Post
From the very beginning we have included MOBHack with the game to allow players to make any adjustment they think are needed.
This is what I did.

The original USMC OOB was very accurate, good job whoever did it in the first place.

The problem is that it was the administrative organization not the deployment one. I.E. a USMC Rifle Company has a Machinegun Platoon (currently 6 MGs, use to be 8) but you NEVER see them deployed as a platoon, except in garrison for training. The MG Platoon is split among the Rifle Platoons (typically 2 MGs each).

While you could use the editor to create "proper" deployment formations you couldn't just purchase the "correct" formations. So I used the editor to create an alternate OOB with the "correct" formations and posted it here in the forums. After a couple years of incorporating each years update and posting a new alternate OOB Don got tired of my complaining ( ) and let me revise the official OOB.

My point is.

Andy gave us an EXCELLENT OOB editor, as Don said, "If you have an issue with the official OOB, change it."
Suhiir - Wargame Junkie

People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
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Old April 4th, 2020, 11:20 AM
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Default Re: WinSPMBT version 10.0 - 14.0 Consolidation patch ( 2020 )

Originally Posted by DRG View Post
Random notes on OOB "errors"

There are 12,937 units in SPWW2 alone and 4,846 weapons. Each unit in SPWW2 has 59 data points that could contain something that someone could call an "error" and each weapon has 13 data points and that includes the name of the unit or weapon which people have had issues with on occasion over the years so 12,937 units x 59 data points = 763,283...over a 3/4 of a million potential error points that someone with "new information" could point out what we have now is "wrong" and that's just units in WW2. MBT has 68 data points per unit and 39, 016 units.....that is Two Million, Six Hundred and Fifty Three Thousand and Eighty Eight data points (2,653,088) and 16,333 weapons ( 16,333x 13 DP= 212,329 ).....note I did not include formations...between the two games there are 24,686 formations and each has 20 data points someone could find a fault with which equals another 493,720 data points

Now that I have dazzled you with those numbers I'll add one more 4,122,420..... Four Million, One Hundred and Twenty Two Thousand, Four hundred and Twenty .......that is the total number of ACTIVE data points in both games just in the OOB's alone that ....Units, weapons and Formations and all have the potential for someone to question or find fault with any one of them. Andy and I have both spent 1/3 of our lives building these games up, just over twenty two years. Are the games and OOB's perfect ? No. Are they better than the original ? We think so and so do many others but we are both burnt out by the neverendingness of it all. I had mentioned the other day to Andy that I had joked/commented many times in the past that OOB work is never ending as new bright sparks digs up info in books or online sites that didn't even exist when I started this ball rolling in 1998 but it has stopped being humorous .

To achieve 99% accuracy in these OOB's in both games when all data points involved is taken into consideration that would allow us to have 41,224 data point "errors" and still achieve 99% accuracy so even if there are " hundreds of errors" that means we are well above 99% accuracy since every percentage point has 41,224 data points.

51,953 is the total number of actual units available to players in both games combined so 1% of that is 520 rounded and that's just units so there would need to be more that 520 units in both games to have some kind of data issue to be considered as being an error for the OOB's to drop below 99% accuracy but when you consider the number of sources available now that were not available to us in the late 1990s and how even current sources can differ I can live with the games being less than perfect because perfection is an unattainable goal and we have already spent 1/3 of our lives doing this and we never considered this would be a life long commitment.

From the very beginning we have included MOBHack with the game to allow players to make any adjustment they think are needed. That is what Andy did when he didn't like the OOB's for the original SSI SP games back in the late 1990's, He created MOBHack then created and published his own complete set of OOB's and anyone is free to do so but do keep in mind that if you break the existing scenarios in the game that represent easily tens of thousands and maybe hundreds of thousands of hours of work for all the people who created them then you better be willing to issue a corrected set with your MOD OOB because that is what we had to do year after year trying to keep up with the revised information that was being sent our way to make the game "better". And just to make it more interesting there are AI picklists and some OOB's have a LOT of picklist changes over time so deciding that the OOB's need to set up more "logically" and re-ordering the formation structure will destroy the AI's ability to generate a usable and varied opposition and that is what we have had to be aware of for 22 years as well. So Scenarios need consistency in units and weapons and the AI pick need consistency in formation structure and if you mess with either or both the game is worthless except for PBEM....but only if the other player has your OOB's as well.

Accept that the game will never be perfect, no game will ever be but it's playable and engaging and that's what's really important not micro managing the weapon mix in a bunker.
IMHO, it would be totally unfair to criticize in terms of not only in regards to included OOB in either WINSPWW2 & WINSPMBT, but in ANY regard considering the positive evolution of Steel Panthers since 1995. I dare to say that Gary Grigsby always considered designing Steel Panthers as to be a Sandbox game for wargamers to design their own scenario battles with time, and they did, and even so, when the original came out to the public it was perfect enough to blew minds away and awe the computer wargamers at the time which had only imagined the day that they could see a Squad Leader equivalent transplanted from the boargame to the digital world. Steel Panthers 2 did the same when it came in 1997 with modern battles from 1950-1999 adding a lot of new features, but perhaps one of the most interesting was the VCR playback feature 100% useful for PBEM.

Having witnessed the evolution and joint effort put to improve the games from the mid 90s to their current successors (WINSPWW2 & WINSPMBT) i feel no other sentiment than to thank this magnificent community and to humbly continue adding my 2 cents, be that as PBEM with others, designing scenarios, or modding the OOBs, graphics, sounds, etc.

Let's keep this going going guys

Acthung Panzer!

Here is what i believe to be a small 'refresher' history course of major contributions and how far Steel Panthers went from 1995 to 2017:

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Old April 10th, 2020, 12:04 PM
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Default Re: WinSPMBT version 10.0 - 14.0 Consolidation patch ( 2020 )

No need to explain your efforts Don and Andy. Steel Panthers has been one of my favorites or If not my favorite games since I picked up the first box from the shelf when it first came out. In fact, with all the games that have came out since then, I still find myself coming back to it. Whether it be to play or to create icons for it. Like you guys, but a larger percentage of my life because I am younger, over 1/2 my life around these games. Cannot express my gratitude enough to the SPCamo team for all their efforts! From before, during, and after I and everyone else that has contributed was part of the team. Amazing journey. THANK YOU SPCAMO AND ESPECIALLY DON AND ANDY!!!
Feedback is welcome and encouraged!
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Old April 17th, 2020, 09:38 PM

jivemi jivemi is offline
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Default Re: WinSPMBT version 10.0 - 14.0 Consolidation patch ( 2020 )

Please add my seconding to the above. It is indeed a pleasure and privilege to be playing perhaps the most accomplished combined-arms wargames (WW2 plus MBT) in these trying times. Live long and prosper Don and Andy!
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