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  #1  
Old May 12th, 2022, 09:03 PM

lansoar lansoar is offline
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Default Turret crew and Fire Control

One of the aspects of WinSPWW2 that I've enjoyed is the renaissance of good 1940 scenarios between Germany and France. Original SP made these scenarios a cake walk due to morale/fire suppression.

With that issue fixed, I have found that on those occasions, in the new revised scenarios, where German and French armor have to face each other, that the French tanks end up being extremely formidable, to the point of eclipsing the similar experience in 1941 when the USSR was invaded.
The French superiority in armor is well represented now.

While I like that the French forces, esp on defense are no longer pushovers, their resilience and accuracy in return fire got me questioning how the turret crew factor influenced the game. The better French medium and heavy tanks were notable in many cases for having very small turrets that had a crew of 1......twice as bad as a turret crew of 2 such as in the early T-34/76A's. Yet, even with a lot of suppression fire generating hits and shrapnel hits leading to Buttoned status....the French tanks seem to retain a remarkable accuracy in hitting their adversaries....even when they are moving.

My question thus is....what impact does the turret crew numbers have on the game as represented by the variable of Fire Control primarily. In WINSPWW2 FC tends to mirror the crew # in the turret. exceptions go higher for tanks with more advanced controls.

While I don't want to hobble French tanks with 1-man turret crews with complete impotence, I wonder if they have a bit too much accuracy and targeting ability given the limitations of said 1 man turret crew.
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  #2  
Old May 13th, 2022, 05:45 AM
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Default Re: Turret crew and Fire Control

The French tanks with 1 man turrets should have lower rate of fire than a similar one with a better turret crew (exept if MG or cannon armed, auto weapons and rifles etc with 1 WH size usually get 6 ROF autimatically in code, ignoring ROF numbers, and only poor troop training reduces that to 5ish).

I have no idea if that was properly addressed in the OOBs by the designers, but it tickles a brain cell from long ago as a "design goal".

FC in SPWW2 is a small number - reducing it might help your idea of slugging French (and others) 1 man turrets perhaps? But more likely, it will be statistically insignifigant. Units with less FC will be marginally cheaper though as it is a charged for item in the points calculator.

It may be something worth looking into later.
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Old May 13th, 2022, 07:18 AM
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Default Re: Turret crew and Fire Control

Further to my last.

I had a quick spin through the fenc early war stuff with 2 crew and they have teh "default" ROFs for the size of cannon (8 etc). So if a reduced ROF for 1 man turrets was applied way back in the DOS days (my brain cell was tickled by amemory of that happening IIRC) then at a later date anothe data massage must have happened where someone went through and blindly applied the defaults, thus nuking any ROF downgrades (if any) that had existed.

So something I'll have to look into - perhaps all the little 2 man tanks with say 8 ROF for their little 47mm popguns might need shaved down to say an ROF of 4 or 5?

And perhaps FC and ROF need a bit of a shave off as well, from say 1/1 to 0/0...

So - on the to-do for whenever.

But anyone who wants to experiment - feel free to publish ay results of same, it may be useful?
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Old May 13th, 2022, 10:39 AM
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Exclamation Re: Turret crew and Fire Control

In the French OOB in regards to any May 1940 Tank/Tankette unit ......


All UC 12 "Light tanks" have 1 FC
All UC 13 "Medium tanks" have 1 FC
All UC 59 "GunTank" have 1 FC
All UC 104 "CS Cruiser Tank" have 1 FC
Two of the four UC 105 "Infantry Tank" have 1 FC the Char B1's have 2
Both Char2C UC 105 " Super Hvy tanks" have 2 FC
Some of the UC 121 Tankettes have FC 2 but they are MG armed
All UC 122 "Support Tankette" have 1 FC
All UC 124 Light Infantry Tank have 1 or less FC
All UC 131 "cavalry tanks" have 1 FC
All UC 132 "Light Cavalry Tank" have 1 FC

"Excessive" fire Control for French tanks in 1940 in SPWW2 is NOT an issue..... ROF...maybe worth looking at
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Old May 13th, 2022, 08:29 PM

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Default Re: Turret crew and Fire Control

You read my mind.

I don't have an issue so much with accuracy, but the ability to fire the # of shots, especially reaction shots....had me kind of going....huh.....that 1 man must sure be busy doing all that yet maintaining situational awareness.
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Old May 13th, 2022, 09:00 PM

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Default Re: Turret crew and Fire Control

perhaps another factor to consider in terms of AFV stats: values in the Encyclopedia.

I'll list one tank in particular. The S-35. A formidable vehicle in terms of firepower and armor. It has a FC rating of 2, which would seem to conform loosely with a "two man" turret crew for WWII AFVs. But it has a turret with only one crewman. (gunner/commander(and loader)). That limitation poses a significant challenge for the vehicle vs. a turret with 2 men (commander and loader), which itself is at a significant disadvantage vs a turret crew of 3 where the roles are all separated (commander/loader/gunner)


I'll do some tests with FC 1 for the S-35. Might prove interesting.
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Old May 14th, 2022, 06:40 AM
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Default Re: Turret crew and Fire Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by lansoar View Post
perhaps another factor to consider in terms of AFV stats: values in the Encyclopedia.

I'll list one tank in particular. The S-35. A formidable vehicle in terms of firepower and armor. It has a FC rating of 2

NO it DOES NOT.

Which version of the OOB's are you using??

Click on INFO in MOBHACK or at the bottom of the Encyclopedia page. The current verion reads March 2022. You are playing with OOB's that are at least 4 years out of date !

The last OOB's with the S-35 with 2 FC were released in 2018


There are two (2) Somua S-35's in the French OOB ( 2022 ) in two different Unitclass and they both have FC 1 as does the PzKw 35-S 739f in the German OOB

Go DL the latest patch you are commenting on issues that no longer exist

Put another way you are complaining about things that were fixed nearly a half decade ago
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Old May 14th, 2022, 06:18 PM

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Default Re: Turret crew and Fire Control

You are right.

Only, I downloaded the free version off the website a couple nights ago running on my Win11 VM. I assumed the free version was the same version as the purchased version only with less features. (my home PC has the paid versions installed....but I do a lot of work these days off my laptop. For the record my views were derived from scenarios played using the paid version of WinSPWW2 with recent updates)

I'll run up the paid versions and look again at the OOB. Sorry for the confusion.

thx

Last edited by lansoar; May 14th, 2022 at 06:30 PM..
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Old May 14th, 2022, 06:46 PM
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Default Re: Turret crew and Fire Control

The update works with either version

Scenarios MAY have units with FC 2 that's the way they work......MAYBE the scenario designer wanted a higher FC.

Confine your comments/suggestions to the current OOB's
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Old May 14th, 2022, 07:26 PM

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Default Re: Turret crew and Fire Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG View Post
The update works with either version

Scenarios MAY have units with FC 2 that's the way they work......MAYBE the scenario designer wanted a higher FC.

Confine your comments/suggestions to the current OOB's
My original comments were based on overall observations playing the game, and not specific to the OOBs. Looking at the OOB stats was an afterthought. Apologies for the mistake looking at the wrong OOB.
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