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  #1  
Old July 30th, 2013, 07:16 PM

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Default British OOB7 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

Here are my suggestions as for the British OOB:

Light tanks:

002 Mk VIc - according to http://www.historyofwar.org/articles...tank_mkVI.html they were produced since 1939 (now: 9/35). Also David Fletcher wrote, that "shortly before the war" a decision has been taken to mount Besa in MkVI.
Maybe they should be named "Lt Tank Mk VIc", like unit 254? ("MK VI" alone is a generic designation. Same for other light Mk's)

003 Honey - picture 380 is M3A3 Stuart V, while it should be earlier model. Perfect for the British service is 27736. As photos from Italy show, old Honeys remained in use at least until 11/43.

Same for units 185 and 296.

004 Stuart VI - according to a book by J. Magnuski, only 3 Stuarts VI were delivered in 1943, and most in 1944 (now: 1/43)

I think, that 255 Honey II should be renamed to Stuart V, which was most numerous version in British use, delivered from 1943 (picture 380 is OK for this version). Now it's available since 1/43 and represents just a variant with better gun. Stuarts V sure remained in use much later (now 6/43), although I have no info if they were still used with turrets in 1944. Armour (slanted) should remain probably the same, although M5A1 Stuart VI icon would be better (unless there is a new one, with slanted sides).

Early cruisers:

005 A9 - according to AFV Weapons Profile 08 - Crusader tank and http://www.wwiivehicles.com/unitedki...er-mk-i-a9.asp deliveries were first made in 1/1939 (now 1/35) (although the pilot model was in 1936). It would need a change in formations, earliest would be #232 A13.

Same for unit 134 A9 CS (I don't know when it starts, so maybe also 1/39, being still the earliest unit in formations)

006 A10 - picture 635 is A10 E1 prototype with slanted front. 27606 looks correct and is very nice.

007 A13 Mk II - according to a Polish monograph on A13, including a list of orders, first Mk II were ordered in 1939, so I would expect them to start in mid-1939 (now 4/38) (some publications say 12/38, but others, like AFV Weapons Profile 08 claim, that this date concerns A13 MkI).
Turret sides and rear were two slanted layers of 14.5 mm, with a space between, so maybe it should be more (now: 2)
Lesser numbers were used until mid-1942 (now 11/41, which was in fact the end of numerous use - Operation Crusader)
Picture 690 is A13 Mk I without extra armour. Correct is 691 or 27610.

136 A13 CS - should be available not earlier, than A13 MkII above (now 4/38)

232 A13 Mk I - first delivered in 12/38 (now 4/36), according to AFV Weapons Profile 08 - Crusader tank (there wasn't even a prototype in 1936). Needs changes in formations 17 and 79, being the earliest tank.
Better copy of the same picture is 690 (used for A13 Mk II now), or better is 27584.

010 Crusader II - a photo 619 seems Crusader III (without external gun mantlet)

Other tanks:

020 Sherman I - photo 384 is M4A1 Sherman II. Could be 27717

Same for 193, 220

022 Sherman V - photo 384 is M4A1 Sherman II. Could be 27730

Same for 023, 194

300 Sherman II - photo is OK for this version, but 27723 seems a drawing of sand/black British camo.

301, 302 Sherman Hybrid - front cast armour should probably be no better, than 021 Sherman IIA / US M4A1(76)W (9, now 10).

303 Sherman III - photo 384 is M4A1 Sherman II. Could be 27725, 27726

030, 365 Valentine III - according to a Polish book, first Valentine III was produced in 4/42 (now 7/41), and it should remain longer.
Photo 639 is some two-men-turret early variant (I-II)

031, 147, 366, 367 Valentine IX - it's a detail, but these tanks were known for their lack of CMG - would it be possible to shoot an AAMG, between gun shots, with two-men turret?...

Regards
Michal
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  #2  
Old August 3rd, 2013, 08:18 PM

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Default Re: British OOB7 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

003, 185, 296 Honey - I've found also photo 12539.

010 Crusader II - correct photo seems 12868.

025 VC Firefly - IMO 648 or 12802 photo better shows the tank. Isn't a better name just "Sherman Firefly"?
Same for 119, 168, 221, 222

Some nice early Sherman in British service with welded hull (III ?) is on a photo 12854

045 Bishop - it was also used in Italian campaign, at least until 1/44 (now ends 12/42) [Concord's "British Armor in Sicily and Italy"].
They aren't seen with Brens on photos (if they carried one inside, I doubt, if it was mounted on external mount only after spotting a plane or an infantry)

049 Daimler A/C - first were indeed manufactured in 4/41, but they first appeared on African theatre only "about July 1942" (AFV Weapons Profile 21 - Armoured Cars Guy, Humber, Daimler, AEC)

051 Lloyd Carrier - in fact it was Loyd (for Vivian Loyd - see eg. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyd_Carrier ).
According to J. Magnuski's book (Polish), in 1939 there was a prototype built, first orders were in 2/40, and they were commissioned in mid-1940 (now: 9/39).
Hull rear wasn't armoured (in fact, they weren't armoured as a standard - there were only kits of front and side armour plates).
It could be given an own icon, for it was quite specific (now it's Carrier's icon - a good model's photo is http://www.militarymodelling.com/sit...1/dsc05118.jpg )

Same for 235 unit

054 Austin 30cwt (Med Truck) - a photo is 6x6 Dodge. Austin rather wasn't met in 30cwt class - most typical in the 1930s was Morris (according to D. Fletcher's "British Military Transport 1829-1956", 'Austin Motor Company had virtually abandoned commercial vehicles between the wars').
In fact, 30cwt was a popular class between the wars, but became a neglected category after Dunkirk. A backbone of the British transport became 3-ton lorries, but we have 3-tonner as a Heavy Truck. If you want a photo of Morris 30cwt, there could be eg. a tractor Morris CDSW found.

55 Bedford (Hvy Truck) - name could be changed to Bedford 3-ton IMO, to better depict the category.
Icon seems quite strange - most typical 3-ton lorries used in field were cab-over-engine (Bedford QL - pictured, Austin K5, Fordson WOT6). Much better is icon 674 in SPMBT.
From 1941, 3-tonners usually came with 4x4 drive.

62, 63, 146 17 Pdr AT-Gun - a photo 65467 is early model on 25pdr carriage (Mk2 - 403 unit). Standard one is lbm 671.

64 40mm Bofors - picture 685 is old SP-1-vintage hard-to-say-what

66 Tetrarch - according to an article on 6th AARR by P. Brown, 6 tanks (of B Special Service Sqdn) were used in a landing on Madagascar in 5/42 (now starts at 4/44) - would need changes in formations (or maybe creating new ones, since they were not used in a role of airborne tanks there). They were available as airborne tanks from 8/42, although not used in action until 1944.

Same for 733, 734 (LJ tanks from 1944)

Formations 149, 150: Abrn Tank Sec, Plt - according to a detailed structure by P. Brown, each platoon had 3 tanks, so they should replace sections.

Regards
Michal
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  #3  
Old August 4th, 2013, 08:36 PM

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Default Re: British OOB7 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post
054 Austin 30cwt (Med Truck) - a photo is 6x6 Dodge. Austin rather wasn't met in 30cwt class - most typical in the 1930s was Morris (according to D. Fletcher's "British Military Transport 1829-1956", 'Austin Motor Company had virtually abandoned commercial vehicles between the wars').
In fact, 30cwt was a popular class between the wars, but became a neglected category after Dunkirk. A backbone of the British transport became 3-ton lorries, but we have 3-tonner as a Heavy Truck. If you want a photo of Morris 30cwt, there could be eg. a tractor Morris CDSW found.
Self-correction: I've acquired other book by D.Jane, in which it states, that there was 30cwt Austin K30 produced through the war. I suggest to rename it just "30cwt truck" (or "Morris 30cwt", since its only use in the game is towing light AT-guns, so it might be Morris CDSW 6x4 tractor).


93 Beaufighter IV - should be VI (IV wasn't build, according to Beaufighter In Action).

109 Gladiator - picture 30102 shows the plane in Belgian markings.

115 Daimler Dingo - there was a folding armoured roof (until Mk III variant from 1944) - so maybe it should not be open-topped. On the other hand, it seems that it had no special AA mounting for a Bren, which was placed in a slot in a front plate.

123 8in Battery - picture is 7.2in gun, same as unit 122 (it has longer barrel)

125 Vickers Medium - IMO better picture is 27608. Size should be IMO 5 (3) - it was large as Sherman. Possibly armour is overestimated - according to AFV Profiles 12: Medium Marks I-III, it was 8 mm max, even though it was sloped in upper front part (but vertical in lower). Crew was 5(4) [AFV Profiles].

129 Morris 15cwt - maybe it's better to rename it to generic "15cwt truck", since most popular were Bedfords MW (pictured), and popular were also Morris CS8, Fordson WOT2 and Guy Ant.
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  #4  
Old August 5th, 2013, 07:47 PM

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Default Re: British OOB7 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

supplements:

...129 Morris 15cwt - and I'm not sure, if it should be AT/wheel. Only two not numerous models produced from 1944 were 4x4 (Guy Ant Quad and Morris C8/GS).

Same remarks for 288 Morris 15cwt (Utility veh.)

By the way: I suggest to rename 055 Bedford to generic "3-ton lorry" to cover all 4x4 and 4x2 lorries. It is used in the game for towing of 17pdr gun only anyway... maybe it should be AEC Matador tractor then?

006 A10 - it's a detail, but maybe it's worth to change its class from Cavalry Tank to Heavy Cruiser - that's what it was regarded. It is the only unit of its class, and its formation would end before advent of next Heavy Cruisers (Grant)

110 Carrier AOP - first series of special AOP carriers was ordered in 3/39 and delivered in 1940 (now starts at 1/35) [by J. Magnuski's book; 1939 date is confirmed by Osprey New Vanguard 110 - Universal Carrier 1936-48].
According to AFV profile, they carried a Bren, but I suppose it had to be AAMG, since there was a binocular slot in a place of Bren cover.

next:

150 Vickers Med CS - according to AFV Profile 12 Medium Marks I-III, Medium Mk.IIA CS had 3.7in mortar, fit first of all for firing smoke, using also HE, but not very accurate in this role. There's no info on ammo load. Other remarks like 125 Vickers medium.

157 Valentine II - for the first year they weren't used in combat, and their debut was only in 11/41 Crusader operation (now starts at 11/40, so it can be used in a desert earlier). Maybe earlier they should be available on 'special order' only? Anyway, 3-men Valentines should definitely last later - I don't know when, but I think well after El-Alamein (now: 12/41) - they started to replaced with 4-men Valentine III only from 4/42.

Same for 364 unit (class Light Inf. tank, used in special formations)

158 M15-A1 - picture is M16

159 M16 - according to J. Magnuski, M16s were introduced to British armoured divisions (including Polish 1st Arm.Div) at least from 3/45 (now 1/46).

188 M3 SP 75mm - picture is 105mm SPG - correct is pm27738
Same for 199, 200

189 M3 SP 6 Pdr - correct picture is pm29389

194 Sherman V - a proper photo is 4015 in SPMBT (same for other Shermans V)

211 AEC Mk I - picture 27583 is in fact Mk III (bigger: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...moured_Car.jpg ). Proper seems 12533
They first appeared on African theatre in 1942 (now 10/41) [AFV Weapons Profile 21 - Armoured Cars Guy, Humber, Daimler, AEC]

236 Hawker Hart - crew should be 2(1)

237 Hawker Hind - crew should be 2(1). It's a detail, but accoridng to a Russian book on ground-attack aircraft, it entered service in 12/35 (now 1/35) (Wikipedia says 11/35) (then, a lifespan of Hart should be extended a bit)

241 LRDG Chevy AA - photo is 37mm portee - correct is 16201

(254 Lt Tank Mk VII - referring to what I wrote about #66 Tetrarch, this unit could be used in a landing on Madagascar in 5/42)

286 Austin 7 - it could take only 4 persons including a driver, and is rather not known for a military use. It's best to change it to Austin 10 Tilly (or generic Tilly - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilly_%28vehicle%29 )
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Old August 5th, 2013, 10:11 PM
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Default Re: British OOB7 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

........on the list.....
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  #6  
Old August 9th, 2013, 08:02 PM

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Default Re: British OOB7 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post
64 40mm Bofors - picture 685 is old SP-1-vintage hard-to-say-what
Note, that this is also used by US 37 mm AA gun

294 Bedford (Prime Mover) - the only prime mover Bedford variant was QLB, specialized for 40mm AA guns ['Bedford to Berlin and Beyond' book]. It should be IMO changed to medium tractor AEC Matador. However, both these AT/wheel trucks were introduced around 1941 (I have no precise date for Matador). Now it's available since 1/30, but there were no British AT/wheel tractors before Morris Quad (#104).

I don't know, if the British used 4x2 trucks to tow guns before, or just limbers and limited(?) numbers of early tracked Dragon tractors. There could be added some generic Dragon (http://www.jedsite.info/tractors-del...on-series.html)

309 Centaur IV - a detail, but isn't a better category 129 Close Support Tank instead of Tank? (it's empty as well)

310 M3 SP 75mm SPA - picture is T19 105mm - should be US T30

327 Hawker Fury - photo shows some 2-seater. 110lb bombs are probably too heavy - according to 'Aircraft Profile 018 Hawker Fury' "most aircraft had provisions to for light bomb racks to carry 25lb practice bombs or flares".

330 Blenheim Mk.IV - with armament of 6 MGs it would be fighter Blenheim Mk.IF (more numerous) or MkIVF. (I don't think, that these variants were often used for strafing anyway)

340-342 Hawker Hart, Hind - crew was 2, if it matters.
Same notes as for availability, as 237 Hind.

350, 351 Spitfire Mk.IA, Vb - photo is some late variant (IX/XVI), with trimmed LF wings.
It's a detail, but first two Spitfires were delivered in 7/38 (now 6/38), and only in 12/38 there was a full squadron (No.19) (the Spitfire Story book). I wouldn't expect wasting such precious fighter for MG-strafing, BTW, especially for Mk.IA.

352 Spitfire MkVIII - it's better to rename it Mk.V C - most popular at that time, and used with bombs since 8/42 (date is correct). First VIIIs were built in 11/42 and were less popular variant.

353 Spitfire Mk.IXe - better photo IMO is 30025.
"e" wing with 2 cannons and 2x0.5in appeared in summer 44 only (now 3/43) [The Spitfire Story]
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Old August 12th, 2013, 01:55 PM
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Default Re: British OOB7 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

Read a few convincing sources and apparently 'c' wings could be converted to 'e' and that is the likely explanation for supposed '1943' MkIX e wing aircraft.

The first production run (brand new) MkIXe were delivered in February 44 and that batch was completed in April 1944. At the same time instructions to convert 'c' wings to 'e' were sent out.

main source:
http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/sort...-mk-ixxvi.html


Unit 353
Should have available date moved back to Feb 1944

Thanks Michal

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  #8  
Old August 15th, 2013, 03:29 AM
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Default Re: British OOB7 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

Remember that a lot of standard weapons are best left with standard names - so we can find the little darlings with a SQL query when checking statistics.

So "molotov cocktail" is as likely to stay the same as will the default sniper rifle.

Going back to the original "Pistol" might be best to stop trainspotter-like whinging about model names. The pistol names were only put in for some flavour back in the DOS days. I'd be perfectly happy to revert to the old name for all of them, same with hand grenades etc.

303 rifle - covers all the models. And in any case when I was in back in the 70s, we never ever used those No.4 designations or L1A1 and so on bundles of letters. Only stores clerks would refer to the weapon or whatever as such, or civvies - especially it seems American ones! So - the "three oh three" was the generic term for any of those weapons, or just "rifle" with "The Smelly" being reserved for the one 1916 or so model SMLE we still had kicking about in the CCF armoury on the occasional time it came out of store to differentiate it. Similarly when I graduated up to the TA as a university student (TA paid more than the UOTC!) - SLR and "Sterling" or "SMG" and never ever L1A1 and whatever the Small Metal Gun was officially designated by the bean-counters.

Cheers
Andy
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Old August 15th, 2013, 08:37 AM
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Default Re: British OOB7 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobhack View Post
Going back to the original "Pistol" might be best to stop trainspotter-like whinging about model names. The pistol names were only put in for some flavour back in the DOS days. I'd be perfectly happy to revert to the old name for all of them, same with hand grenades etc.

Cheers
Andy

Sorry if you thought my suggestions were 'whinging'.

I'm aware that the German, US, Soviet, Polish, et al, OOB use national rifle names, for example, so I thought it a bit odd that the Enfield wasn't mentioned.

I guess if there isn't a standard naming convention, then it's tough to know if posts will be seen as:
  • suggestion for improvement
  • a clear error
  • trainspotting

I've kind of taken the stance that I'd rather point out all the inconsistencies/issues I see, and then let you guys decide what's an improvement or error.

Perhaps you shouldn't perceived posts as whinging unless the same person brings up an issue more than once.

cheers,
Cross
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Old August 15th, 2013, 09:07 AM
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Default Re: British OOB7 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

By all means, feel free to comment.

However things that will get ignored when we get round to the winter OOB work, will be. There may be a return to the simple "standardised" pistol and hand grenade ALA MBT, if we can be bothered, just to save future nit-picking on the subject though.

A simple naming system of "Rifle", "SLR", "SMG" and so on (as in the WRG tabletop rule sets) would have been best. If designing from scratch I would most likely have gone that way.

Andy
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