Turn by Turn by Zen (Atlantis)

[gibson]

Excellent write up so far Zen. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to do this, as you seem to be one of the most knowledgable forumers and hence should be able to offer some good insight into both short term and long term strategies (I hope).

I too am curious about your prentender motivations. The dagon is obviously a good combat pretender, but I wouldn't mind a sentence or two explaining your magic choices (i.e. why did you choose those specific paths and what influenced the amount of each path you took? Spell casting goals? Flexibility for casting certain schools? Forging requirements? A challenge (for those wondering why not water 4)?

Eagerly awaiting the rest of this aar!

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Water 3? What are you thinking? For 16 dp you get water 4, a +2 defense to Atlantis's very powerful sacred units. Why would you choose 6 dominion and 3 water?

Baka baka baka!

The obvious answer that comes to mind is that Dagon comes with 2 water ranks, and after taking his scales, dominion, and nature-2, he was left with exactly 8 points left, so plowed them into water, the only place they would fit.

The obvious and most apparently striking reason that he went with W3/N2, instead of W4/N1 is that he wanted Personal Regeneration, which is nature-2.

Therefore, it looks like he's doing the school of pretender design based on what spells he can cast in combat, sort of like what he told Arryn to do.

[ February 12, 2004, 19:10: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Alright, since I can't seem to escape it

The reason I chose the Dagon is his obvious immediate advantage. You can nearly always send him out on turn 2 solo to a nearby province if you have a decent selection. Had I been given a little more leeway in my starting position I would have been able to exploit this a little more, but as it stands I was unlucky (not really a big surprise).

His paths were thought of in this light. After I chose my scales (I personally pick scales and theme before pretender paths).

Decided I wanted to go with a high production strategy in order to take advantage of a land based war. Also with R'lyeh in the game I wanted the significant advantage of being able to recruit an immediate horde of units to soak up mind bLasts.

With my scales decided, I then looked at my pretender.

With the points I had left, I had one of two options. A.) 4 in Water 1 in Another Path or B.) 3 in Water 2 in Another Path.

Now the one of the inherent strength of the Atlantis nation is their quick water gem supply (thus letting you, if you choose take provinces with Deep Seer's by speedresearching Conjuration).

I decided that I would not go that approach as it would limit the expansion of my Dagon and lower his survivability because I would not be able to take advantage of any immediate buffing spells.

So in Order for my Dagon to be viable as a combatant he needs to be able to cast his buffing spells and not be overtly fatigued in order to use his Trample (which uses alot of Fatigue).

So the choice of 3 Water, 2 Other was apparently, I simply had to decide which 2 the Other would be.

My initial reaction is Air. But I've already played that particular Dagon (who is very effective). 2 Air will let me Mistform, Mirror Image and Cloud Trapeze. Also gives me an assured forger of Flying Boots. But I've already played that Dagon so I pass.

My second reaction is Earth. With 2 Earth you could Summon Earthpower, Ironskin and eventually Invulnerability (though with a fatigue hit). But I decide against Earth as well because it just doesn't feel right.

My third reaction is Blood. Atlantis is unique in the light that it almost never counted as a Blood Nation and seeing a Turn 15 Ice Devil would be nice. But as I think more, the intricacies of Blood Hunting both detailing in an AAR and the nations setup keeps me from it. In order to have a reasonable Ice Devil production and equipment I'd have to have more King's of the Deep than I could reasonably aqquire with good random picks and lucky with the Voice of Tiamat. So for now I pass, but maybe in the future with a different pretender I'll look into hyper-quick Atlantis Blood.

So my Last option is to pick Nature. Nature seems interesting because I've had great success with Quickness, Bone Melter. It has access to Personal Regeneration, Elemental Fortitude, Living Castle (50 Nature gems for a free Citadel) and Foul Vapors.

So with that, I chose Nature. With the Random Picks of the King of the Deep and the way the game goes, I can't count on any one particular aspect of the game to remain constant (Will I have enough Gold to recruit enough Kings of the Deep to fill my missing holes?, Will Misfortune take me for a nose-dive? I don't need Nature because I can get Amazons (but never do), etc) I am going to just play it and see.

And voila! Zen the Dagon, similiar to, but not unlike his brother Phish the Dagon with Air

Also a note on the Prophetlessness of my Current Nation. I know what entails and benefits making a prophet. My feelings are that Atlantis has a hard time with Morale initially because Tritons cause alot of morale issues (as well as poison and attrition to poison) and in my experience my Coral Queen is regulated to Fantacism duty 90% of the time. If I stopped my expansion at this point to make my current Queen a Prophet it would not impact much the current battles. I could make my scout a prophet in order to spread Dominion, but I am fairly firm in the underwater temple strategy of dominion spreading. So for now it waits and my nation is not hurt by not having a prophet.

[ February 12, 2004, 21:03: Message edited by: Zen ]

Turn 9

Messages:
Research in Enchantment Completed
Proclamation from Mictlan, a Priest King is his Prophet
Battle – Storn Woods – Defense = 3 Commander, 27 Units (33% Militia, 33% HI, 33% Xbow) – Result Win – Losses: 1x Reef Warrior, 2x Coral Guard, 3x Atlantian Spearman, No Afflictions
Battle – Ireme – Defense = 3 Commander, 42 Units (40% Militia 30% HI, 30% Xbow) – Result Retreat

Result from Battle: I should probably mention that Zen the Dagon now has 2 Stars of Experience with 88 kills under his belt and 98 experience. Top of the Hall of Fame and a likely candidate for Vengeance of the Dead

Recruit: (+1 Order, +2 Productivity… )
1x Initiate of the Deep
9x Coral Guard

Research:
Alteration 2 – 0 RP
Enchantment 2 – 0 RP
Conjuration 0 – 48 RP

Target: Ireme (See above)
Kratas (50 Units, Militia, Heavy Infantry)

Action:
Pack Woods and The Darks set to 80% Tax (11 and 15 Unrest respectively)
Storn Woods set to 80% Tax (14 Unrest)
Yakt Hoob the Scout set to move to Sea of Rond (East)
Shamem the King of the Deep set to Research
Zen the Dagon given Quickness, Personal Regeneration, Barkskin Attack Rearmost Orders set to Front Right Flank of Troop Block set to move to Ireme
Madema the Coral Queen / x2 Reef Warrior, x 7 Atlantian Spearmen, x34 Coral Guard given Attack Closest Orders in Front Center of Formation Box, set to move to Kratas

Reasons:
Now that I have Water Shield, Quickness, Barkskin, and Personal Regeneration my Dagon is a decent Underwater fighter and until I see R’leyh. My research is now geared towards Conjuration. My immediate goal is Voice of Tiamat and Lesser Water Elementals then I will need to go to Construction in order to equip MR boosting equipment. As a note, Vanheim has appeared in Hesperia (Northwest of Oceania) which I don’t consider an immediate threat. My immediate decision is how I’m going to store an amount of gold for another Kelp Citadel when I land in the water over the Land Bridge.

Turn 10

Messages:
Research in Conjuration Completed
Battle – Ireme – Defense = 3 Commander, 42 Units (40% Militia 30% HI, 30% Xbow) – Result Win – Losses: 0, No Afflictions
Battle – Kratas – Defense = 4 Commander, 41 Units (40% Militia 30% HI, 30% Xbow) – Result Win – Losses: 1x Reef Warrior, 10x Coral Guard, 4x Atlantian Spearmen
Battle – Sea of Rond – Defense = 1 Commander, 42 Units (60% Sea Troll, 40% Kraken) – Result Retreat

Recruit: (+1 Order, +2 Productivity …)
1x Deep Seer
9x Coral Guard

Research:
Alteration 2 – 0 RP
Enchantment 2 – 0 RP
Conjuration 1 – 2 RP
Construction 0 – 50 RP

Target: Sea of Silence (See above)

Actions:
Pack Woods, Storn Woods, The Dark set to 90% Tax (3, 8, 7 Unrest respectively)
Ireme set to 80% Tax (14 Unrest)
1 Province Defense set to Pack Woods, Storn Woods, Ireme
Equanok the Initiate of the Deep set to Research
Zen the Dagon given Quickness, Personal Regeneration, Water Shield, Breath of Winter given Attack Rearmost Orders set to Front Center Formation Block set to move to Sea of Silence
Madema the Coral Queen / x24 Coral Guard set to move to Ireme
Shubbaruth the Consort / x20 Coral Guard set to move to Pack Woods
Yakt Hoob the Scout set to sneak to Sea of Silence (East)

Reasons:
I adjust my research to Construction in order to augment my initial income with a few Clams as well as quicker MR gear. I have been more and more reliant on my Dagon to expand because the Land bridge has slowed my advance and my scales have not adjusted very well. I order to have him ready to fight R’lyeh I will need to have a high MR in order to resist the Paralyze/Mind BLast hurdles they are going to throw at me. I have been unlucky as far as land provinces as well, no scouts (out of 4 provinces) that I may recruit. As a Water Nation I have a little more relaxed of an approach to land provinces and neighbors (especially since this is the AI). More often than not I wait for a land province with a castle on the coast before I make an active attempt to secure large land areas and this is true in this game as I am less inclined to start fighting with land nations and R’lyeh at the same time.

Turn 11

Messages:
Research in Conjuration Completed
Battle – Sea of Silence – Defense = 2 Commander, 53 Units (50% Ichytid, 50% Ichytid Warrior) – Result Win – Losses: 0, No Afflictions
Unexpected Event – +Lab in Storn Woods

Recruit: (Order 1, Production 3… )
1x Deep Seer


Research:
Alteration 2 – 0 RP
Enchantment 2 – 5 RP
Conjuration 2 – 0 RP
Construction 0 – 47 RP

Target: Nuptia (~30 Units, Icthyid, Icthyid Warrior)

Action:
Pack Woods set to 90% Tax (3 Unrest)
Ireme set to 90% Tax (7 Unrest)
Sea of Silence set to 80% Tax (13 Unrest)
Torgrel Beg the Deep Seer / x9 Coral Guard set to move to Pack Woods
Yakt Hoob the Scout set to sneak to Nuptia (Southeast)
Zen the Dagon given Summon Water Power, Quickness, Personal Regeneration, Water Shield, Breath of Winter given Attack Rearmost Orders set to Rearmost Center Formation Block set to move to Nuptia
Madema the Coral Queen / x2 Reef Guard, x3 Atlantian Spearmen, x24 Coral Guard set to move to Sea of Silence
Shubbaruth the Consort / x20 Coral Guard set to move to Ireme

Reasons:
The Dagon with Water Shield and Regeneration and Quickness can do very well against most Underwater Independants. The only real issue you run into is if he can stand an initial assult from a mass of Tritons (Depends on Equipment and Dominion). I chose to opt for Icthyids because they give me more time to put up by defensive spells in order to take them solo. You’ll notice my research didn’t jump in Construction, that is because I misclicked Enchantment instead of Construction. C’est la vie. Mictlan has shown his ugly face south in Holburg (South of Atlantis) and Machaka has popped up in Typhia (North of Sea of Silence). Machaka has a fairly strong Dominion as it already covers the Sea of Silence. I will more than likely need to put up a buffering Temple near in order to keep his Dominion from taking over water provinces that I require for my Dagon’s HP and MR bonus.

Turn 12

Messages:
Research in Construction Completed
Research in Enchantment Completed
Tien Chi has declared War on me
Battle – Nuptia – Defense = 2 Commander, 39 Units (50% Ichytid, 50% Ichytid Warrior) – Result Win – Losses: 0, No Afflictions

Recruit:
1x Initiate of the Deep

Research:
Alteration 2 – 0 RP
Enchantment 3 – 0 RP
Conjuration 2 – 0 RP
Construction 1 – 60 RP

Action:
The Darks and Pack Woods set to 100% Tax (0 Unrest)
Ireme set to 90% Tax (5 Unrest)
Nuptia set to 80% Tax (13 Unrest)
Ululu the Deep Seer set to Research
Shubbaruth the Consort / x20 Coral Guard set to move to The Sea of Silence
Torgrel Beg the Deep Seer set to Search for Magical Sites
Yakt Hoob the Scout set to Construct Fortress
Madema the Coral Queen / x2 Reef Guard, x3 Atlantian Spearmen, x24 Coral Guard set in Center Block Formation to move to The Sea Untamed
Zen the Dagon given Quickness, Water Shield, given Attack Rearmost Orders set to Center Formation Block set to move to The Sea Untamed

Reasons:
I built a Kelp Citadel in Nuptia as it has access to most all the Water provinces surrounding as well as a 3 Land Provinces that are currently under control of Tien Chi. There is a chokepoint of sea to the Southeast which I would rather put it in, but the length of my reinforcements from my capital is forcing my hand. I need another center of troop production as soon as possible so this will have to do. Though it is worth noting that the Sea of Rond (The one with a pile of trolls and Kraken) is on one side which makes Nuptia an effective chokepoint until someone takes the resources to take that heavily defended province. My research is starting to take shape but it is spread. My usual playstyle of concentrating my Paths to fit Schools (Primarily Alteration) does not fit this particular Dagon very well since he is required to get Enchantment 2 for Personal Regeneration. In the future I will take more consideration whether or not I choose Nature for that reason as I feel I am behind in Construction (and Clams).


Turn 13

… To be announced

Empire Update –
Total Provinces = 12 (4 Land, 8 Underwater)
Total Fortresses = 1 (1 In Progress)
Total Upkeep = 170
Total Income = 644
Total Gem Income = 5 Water

Analysis:
I am doing poorly. I have a lot of work to do to catch up. My initial position and research choices have put me in a position weaker than normal. Gem Income is low, but not unthinkable given that I am waiting to use Voice of Tiamat to search underwater provinces. This might be adjusted if possible in future games with Atlantis where you do not have to split your research so wide.

[ February 12, 2004, 23:40: Message edited by: Zen ]

Please Note:

If you have any questions regarding why I have done something and it's not clear in the "Reasons:" section, please speak up.

I play mainly by habit, meaning there is a certain level of things I automatically do, based on playing the game. Sometimes I overlook why, especially if I'm not paying attention, I do certain things that I don't explain.

[gibson]

I've been trying out your basic strategy with the same pretender and scales to try and get a feel for your choices Zen, and have a few questions after about 30 games of ~5-7 turns each:

1) How might have your opening been different had you not been hit by the Order/Prod scale zeroing bug?

2) Coral guard are incredibly slow, which is fine when they are fighting tritons, but they get decimated by land armies it seems (either by arrows or just javelins/steel). Why are these guys useful (and on a related note, why would one ever build the less armored Versions other than cost?)

3) You say your position is weaker than normal. What would you consider normal at this stage?

4) You seem to have been fairly lucky in combat so far, taking fairly low losses and no afflictions on Zen. In my experience I've had difficulty reproducing this success, often because there are no "easy" independents within reach. Is your success a function of some good luck, or something I'm overlooking (good scouting info, learned experience (i.e. ichthyids are easier than trolls), etc)? As a similar question, when I get afflictions on the pretender, it is often Lost an Eye or Limp, both of which greatly hamper his combat ability. If you end up with an affliction, what are your plans for your pretender?

5) Another hypothetical question, but I've experienced it and wondered how you'd cope: say you grossly underestimate a province defense and lose 90% or more of your prophet's force and/or your pretender. Aside from starting over (which is what I've been doing as I get a feel for things), how would you cope with such a huge set back?

Probably some more to come. I'm enjoying this AAR immensely and find it very informative. I look forward to the rest of it and any others you might someday write.

[Lunaticus]

Great posting - thx Zen.
By the way: Would you or anybody who understands blood magic care to write a similar turn by turn guide for a nation based heavily on blood magic (like Mictlan)? It might just be me but I have avoided all blood nations due to not being sure about their strategy. If their is already a AAR for Mictlan (didnt find any) please let me know.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Nirvana:
If their is already a AAR for Mictlan (didnt find any) please let me know.

Try: A Tale of Fire and Blood by General Tacticus. It is stickied at the top of the forum.

BTW, Jotunheim is a so-called "Blood" nation, but I don't use Blood magics (a personal quirk).

[ February 15, 2004, 12:23: Message edited by: Arryn ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Arryn:
BTW, Jotunheim is a so-called "Blood" nation, but I don't use Blood magics (a personal quirk).

Jotun CAN be played as a blood nation, although it's a minor aspect which is entirely optional, and not making heavy, or even any, use of the blood magic is entirely feasible.

I don't think Arryn would ever be able to play Mictlan, though, with such squeamishness towards playing blood. Mictlan is entirely about blood and you couldn't possibly do without it.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I don't think Arryn would ever be able to play Mictlan, though, with such squeamishness towards playing blood. Mictlan is entirely about blood and you couldn't possibly do without it.

Yep, you're right, on both counts. It's the one nation I've yet to try, and likely won't.