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  #391  
Old November 16th, 2006, 03:19 PM
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Default Re: Unit Launch options

I don’t know of a way to make components unusable without adding restrictions to the vehicles they are to be used in. Also if they can be made unusable that would just make for a mod doomed to failure. Ask yourself if you would really want to play a mod that clutters the ship design screen with components that you aren’t even allowed to use? What you are describing is closer to a semi-generational component. Any generational mod must, by nature, have the components removed from the list.

If you can’t imagine what I am saying start a game of SE4, give yourself all tech to start with, go to design a ship, then make sure the “Only Latest” button is not selected. Now try scanning through all that. That is an example of what I am coining as semi-generational. Keep in mind this is an example of semi-generational. Meaning the components may be outdated but you can still use them. In the example above and in your question the components aren’t usable. They are just cluttering up space, in other words almost semi-generational.
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  #392  
Old November 16th, 2006, 03:31 PM

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Default Re: Unit Launch options

Nope. If an item is displayed, you can use it. And the point is to get it off the list, really; making it unusable is just a side-effect.
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  #393  
Old November 16th, 2006, 04:42 PM

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Default Re: Unit Launch options

I understand what you want to achieve and am trying to help you find a way out of this dead-end (in my limited abilities ).
In that case, can't you use requirement like below to avoid the current bug:

[%level%] <= Get_Empire_Tech_Level("Ion Engine") OR [%level%] <= Get_Empire_Tech_Level("Nuclear Engine") + 10

And you have max level for Ion Engine Tech of 10 and requirement for Nuclear Engine Tech like:
Get_Empire_Tech_Level("Ion Engine") >= 10

Of course you still have the name problem (the engine will have the same name...) which will be only display glitch
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  #394  
Old November 16th, 2006, 05:37 PM
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Default Re: Unit Launch options

The components may be related by function but they are too different to build into a progression system like the one SE5 is using now. I think that is what you are trying to build in your post. I did try to make the components into a progressive system using iif statements. However, this did not work for many reasons.

Still I‘m not sure I follow your example. In your example the component will progress to tech level 10 in the tech area Ion Engine then the tech area Nuclear Engine will take over. This will affect what tech area controls the item but will not change the component that is being put in the ship unless that item is changing based on a formula that calls on [%Level%] to calculate cost or some such thing.

A true generational component uses one tech area to progress by, so the Ion Engine in our previous example would be set at tech level 1 for area A and the Nuclear Engine at tech level 3 in area A. Then you will need a trigger tech area, tech area B. So when you are at level 1 tech area A and B you have the Ion Engine. When you reach level 3 tech area A nothing happens until you reach level 4 in tech area B. At that time the generational effect kicks in and the Ion Engine is removed and the Nuclear Engine is released. Reading my earlier post I see I didn’t explain this very well. Since all of us modders dealt with generational components in SE4 I just assumed the bare explanation would do; my fault and my apologies for being so vague. Also I did test placing tech area A and B on the same requirement line using both AND and OR. The problem remains that the file needs to read afresh.

Maybe if you could give a little more detail please? Also keep in mind that the current problem to generational components is not the set up in the components requirements. The problem is that, no matter how you the requirements, the hard code tells the game to look at the Components.txt file once at load and that’s it. I do appreciate your thoughts and don’t want to discourage you from posting them. Maybe there is a backdoor and as you point out we may yet find it by sharing thoughts.
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  #395  
Old November 16th, 2006, 06:30 PM

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Default Re: Unit Launch options

I'm sorry but I still don't get what is the difference between your "Ion engine" and your "Nuclear Engine" except the name.
Does the Nuclear engine has anything different from Ion Engine except the name and maybe 1 bonus mvt point ?

I understand now that you want only 1 Tech which provides 2 components, but I'm still interested in the difference you desire between the two engines
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  #396  
Old November 16th, 2006, 07:52 PM
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Default Re: Unit Launch options

The engine thing was only an example. I don’t use a Nuclear or Ion Engine in my mod. Here is an actual component from the Mod. At high Tech level 2 and Force Weapons level 1 you get the Force Projector. At High Tech level 4 and Force Weapons 2 You get the Force Beam. Here are the differences between the two and also why they must be entered as different components and not as progressive components:

1. The name but that’s a given!
2. Tonnage Space, this could be done with an iif statement but not a formula.
3. Cost, which could be done with an iif statement but not a formula.
4. Vehicle type it can be placed on.
5. Requirements Formula.
6. Abilities change.
7. Min and max weapon damage changes.
8. Weapon To Hit modifier changes.
9. Weapon reload rate changes.

When I say they can’t be done with a formula I mean that the differences are so dynamic from one version to the next that there is no formula I can think of that would mimic the changes.

Using the example of the engines again. You may be able to write a single component that will phase out (in our example the Ion Engine) when another comes along (once again in our example the new one was the Nuclear Engine) however you can not phase the Nuclear Engine out when the Chity-Chity Bang-Bang Engine is developed unless you make a new component; which by definition means you have just made a generational component.

Now remember what I said at the start? This is only one example. Now imagine a mod that has absolutely nothing in common with Stock. All new tech areas, new vehicles, new vehicle types, new governments, no intelligence, new economy, and I think that about covers it. The example Force Projector and Force Beam are generational components. A generational component is one that can not be developed using a formula stuck in a few key places because there are too many changes from one version to the next. If it could be done with a clever formula or two it would be a progressive component.

Edited in: Also note that the Force Beam is not the final component in the Force Weapons line. Each new version phases out the one before.
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  #397  
Old November 16th, 2006, 08:24 PM

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Default Re: Unit Launch options

On 2 and 3: you realize you can use iff statements in all formulas, right? I haven't tested it in components.txt yet, but it works in techareas.txt.
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  #398  
Old November 16th, 2006, 09:03 PM
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Default Re: Unit Launch options

I have iif statements set in a few formulas but have not reached those techs in the testing yet. I will let you know what happens when I get there. I did say that I could use iif statements, I was saying that I could not use formulas.

Edited In: Oh I see what you’re saying. I could have used iif statements for all the fields that take formulas, right! I could have but there a few places such as weapon to hit and damage that I already have formulas in and that still wouldn’t help the many other places I can’t use formulas or iif statements. For example how do I tell the game the Force Beam can be put on bases if I am using the Force Projector in progressive style? It would have to be generational style or nothing.
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  #399  
Old November 17th, 2006, 03:19 AM

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Default Re: Unit Launch options

I see, the first example was a bad one
Of course if the two generation of components are so different then you are stuck in the well.

Like I am for my big spreadsheet defining 5/6 types of cloaking/sensors on different levels with interaction (like camo, gravity, invisibility, system wide code security) from se4 or my sets of plague levels, or my battery system for electric weapon (whose power depends on the number of battery onboard), or like the possibility to make requirement level-dependent for techs...

SO I can add one more and wait with you for correction !
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  #400  
Old November 17th, 2006, 09:59 AM
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Default Re: Unit Launch options

I agree that was a really poor example for me to pick. Funny enough the only reason I did is that I thought using a component from the stock files was the best bet. Oh well! Anyway let me take a look at your spreadsheet, I can imagine several of the elements you are trying to make coming together; however, without a look or detailed understanding of some kind I can’t really help.
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