Ban-a-thon

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

At the risk of being unpopular, I have always found that forum trolls are always of detriment to the community regardless of whatever contributions they make. They drive away new people and make others want to leave or not participate.

Any mods those guys made are contributions prior. They can still play--they just can't be nasty on the forums which is how it was explained.

If they want to get hot over spitting in the face of the mods after being offered a chance to return, that's fine. I'm sure there are other people who will be more than willing to take up the slack that was left from their departure, and perhaps with weeds pulled the community as a whole will be better off.

I don't have anything against any of them personally, nor do I know the event that caused the bans in the first place and I don't care. I have been on many forums and without qualification, trolls are always a negative force regardless of how much useful information may be stored within them. Anything within them can be found elsewhere.

I spent probably 30 minutes the other day responding to what I thought was a request for strategy assistance only to find that it was some dude trolling and trying to start fights by insulting anyone who tried to help in earnest for whatever purpose. That thread has been deleted. Forums are Dictatorships not Democracies. Rules are generalities not absolutes. Mods have discretionary power to do what they decide is best for the community in general.

Sombre - made mods, you know exactly why he was banned, and if you don't it's very easy to figure it out why since it is posted both here and in more complete detail on the forum people are migrating to. Sombre never spit in the face of the mods for offering to return him... he was never offered this so far as I'm aware. If you want to accuse him of doing something, at least make sure it's something he actually did.

Maerlande - did not make mods, had a grudge against septimius and said some things about him in the past, definitely a troll, but the vast majority of this was of a subtle and/or harmless type. With regards to the deleted thread in question, I once again refute accusations of baiting people into arguments. I saw that thread, I posted in it, and you and peter ebesson were being just as abusive of him there as sombre ever has been, I am not kidding at all when I say this. The two of you got the already hostile IRC crowd riled up, and that's what got you hit. Sorry, but it was your own fault. *shrug*

Frozen Lama and Trumanator - Neither modders or trolls. Perfectly helpful and decent members of the community, until they were set off by the banning. They got banned because they wanted to be banned, no more, no less. Don't go painting everyone with the same brush, whether out of malice, ignorance, or laziness.

There are a good number of IRC folk with similar opinions who just did not go so far as to get themselves banned, and IRC people constitute probably at least 70% of people who regularly post advice to people. You may be an experienced enough player not to care about these people leaving the forums, but there are a lot of people who SHOULD care. Anyway I have nothing else to add to this that wasn't said yesterday.

[chrispedersen]

[quote=Zeldor;744103]Ironhawk:

I'm deleting my post as it probably doesn't contribute anything helpful to the debate.

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by Zapmeister

How does banning even work? If it's just based on the name, then its a trivial matter to re-register under a different one.

If its based on IP, most people don't have a static one. And if whole ranges of IPs are blocked, you're potentially banning innocents that use the same ISP.

That's why I'm convinced that Norfleet is still lurking around here somewhere ...

Shrapnel uses an IP block. Apparently it is not very hard to get around the block at all, should one so choose. No one banned has registered a new name so far as I'm aware, though, so I wouldn't go looking for any of them to be making any new posts.

[Zapmeister]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

How does any punishment work for anything? Internet or real world. Same comments, same answers.

Eh? I was asking a technical question: How does whatever-they-do actually prevent banned people from using the forum?

rdonj said they use an IP block, but if that means just blocking a single IP, thats never going to be effective in our DHCP world.

There's no analogy to this problem in the real world (that I can think of).

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by rdonj

...
Maerlande - did not make mods, had a grudge against septimius and said some things about him in the past, definitely a troll, but the vast majority of this was of a subtle and/or harmless type. With regards to the deleted thread in question, I once again refute accusations of baiting people into arguments. I saw that thread, I posted in it, and you and peter ebesson were being just as abusive of him there as sombre ever has been, I am not kidding at all when I say this. The two of you got the already hostile IRC crowd riled up, and that's what got you hit. Sorry, but it was your own fault. *shrug*

I did not make any rude comments. I didn't say anything insulting except to reference the fact that the suggested strategy was not a good one. In the beginning, I suggested that rather cordially, but when he began trolling via insult, I responded more bluntly. Then the troll-posters proceeded to try to make fun of me for not understanding their inside info--I don't hang on IRC, so I have no idea what they're talking about. I pop on to look for strategy info, play with mods, and help out if people need something.

I don't come here for drama. If people want to talk about me on some IRC channel that's fine. People who make decisions about my character without reason are probably not going to like me anyway. That doesn't make me a bad person just to not be liked by some random Internet people. I'm sure there are plenty of fine people to talk to who have better manners.

As for the "Sombre wasn't offered a chance" defense, I believe, I can refer you to Annette's posting wherein she offered to let him stay provided he agreed not to continue his negative behavior and he refused to do so. I assume he was trying to leverage the fact that he's good at making mods to give him free reign to do as he pleased on the boards which is an invalid argument.

That being said, I'm not going to continue responding to this nonsense hereafter. I was not talking about the other two mentioned, only Sombre and Maerlund, though Tru was trolling in the aforesaid thread as well.

Thank you,

V

...and I'm not a mean person, but I do reserve the right to defend myself when attacked. Although, I do not do so through childish name calling and mockery, but through valid and hopefully profitable debate.

[chrispedersen]

Rdonj...

You are right - neither you nor I know whether sombre was offered a chance to return; whether he chose to ignore it or not.
So we really have nothing to contribute to the conversation.

As for peter, Ver, etc. they were mocked far before they responded. Remember the

no

no

no

yes, you don't get it post? Even well past that post they were trying to respond helpfully. It may be your opinion that this is perfectly acceptable behavior. It isn't mine.

[rdonj]

Chrisp - it is my opinion that verjigorm and PE's behavior was much more unacceptable in that thread than maerlande's ever was. Other people may have descended to the same level.

[Rookierookie]

Maerlande - did not make mods, had a grudge against septimius and said some things about him in the past, definitely a troll, but the vast majority of this was of a subtle and/or harmless type. With regards to the deleted thread in question, I once again refute accusations of baiting people into arguments. I saw that thread, I posted in it, and you and peter ebesson were being just as abusive of him there as sombre ever has been, I am not kidding at all when I say this. The two of you got the already hostile IRC crowd riled up, and that's what got you hit. Sorry, but it was your own fault. *shrug*

As an observer to the thread, I think the Sombre-supporting crowd was the primary instigator of abuse in that thread. Verjigorm and P.E. were being perfectly helpful until certain members incessantly taunted them. I think there are some double-standards being applied here, where some people are allowed to be blunt or harsh or sarcastic or abusive, while others aren't, and the latter group isn't even allowed to respond with the same tone. Either that, or there has been some kind of memory lapse.

The final post made by Annette in the latest thread implied that Sombre was not completely candid. Of course there are several people who, having already labelled her as a liar, would obviously consider that a lie to and would not bother to listen; this rather adds to the list of lies as far as they are concerned.

For me, I don't particularly care. However, given the conflict with their stories, I have no reason to believe either side unconditionally, though it doesn't help Shrapnel that they have no provision for open information, such as an openly viewable "administrative board" that some forums have. My stance is always that if I feel that I don't want to be in this forum anymore, I don't have to. And I don't have to spew a bunch of profanities or spam in order to get banned.

I will add that I never actually thought that Sombre was very obnoxious as far as what I saw on the forums. Impatient and occasionally not always thinking enough before posting, but never truly obnoxious. I don't know what goes on elsewhere. The same cannot be said for some members of the group who came to his defence after the banning, who preferred to resort to the least effective method of argument possible, and more importantly were indiscriminate in their attacks. I think they did a lot of the things they accused Shrapnel of, and sometimes reminded me of the Chinese Red Guard insofar that anybody who did not support them unconditionally were demonized too. Sometimes I wonder if the people who rebel against authority do it for self-righteousness rather than righteousness.

As for IP blocks, they mean exactly nothing. I know. Don't look at me like that, I was twelve at that time!

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by rdonj

Chrisp - it is my opinion that verjigorm and PE's behavior was much more unacceptable in that thread than maerlande's ever was. Other people may have descended to the same level.

I truly wish that thread had not been deleted... Now it can be used to justify any opinion. With it gone, people can say that I said anything. Remember, that just because you wanted to feel a certain way about what I posted doesn't mean that I felt that way when I wrote it. Emotional context does not exist in text, and I always tell people not to mix their own feelings into things other people say online. Not that you care.

If you know I started it, why don't you repost quotes from the thread that you saved as evidence?

Bah... I shouldn't be typing or responding. You're just trying to suck me into another troll thread.

[Tim Brooks]

Eh? I was asking a technical question: How does whatever-they-do actually prevent banned people from using the forum?

rdonj said they use an IP block, but if that means just blocking a single IP, thats never going to be effective in our DHCP world.

Hi Zapmeister:

Actually our bans work on a couple of levels. Still there are always ways around any ban. The biggest detriment to the banned individual is that they can no longer use their username on the forums.

We haven't had to ban that many individuals, and most just don't come back, but every once in a while we have those trying to come back on with a new identity. We usually catch them in registration or not long after. Most people find it hard to change their ways and you can usually tell when someone has returned. And if they do return, change their ways, follow the rules, and play nice, well usually that is all we wanted from them from the beginning...

Hope that helps.