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  #1  
Old May 28th, 2021, 06:49 AM

Kiwikkiwik Kiwikkiwik is offline
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Default Manpack flamethrowers

I had a look at infantry flamethrowers and found a series of errors according to the literature. I've detailed these below, please note these are not MODs based on my Point Of View these are substantiated instances of where the game OOB contains errors.

German wpn 85 'Brandflasche' more commonly known as the Einstossflammenwerfer 46, this weapon has a half second burst delivering 1.7 lt of fuel, This is equivalent to a burst from a normal manpack flamethrower, actually better than some. So it should have a HEKill much closer to 25. Game has HEKill of 4. It is a weapon specifically designed for Paratroop and infantry assault groups and later volksgenadier so probably shouldn't appear in cavalry or tank hunter units. This weapon was issued in 1944 but appears in the game in 1941.

The curiously named Italian weapon 85 'Bomba Benzina' (actually called the Lanciafiamme Mod 41 assalto) is virtually the same weapon. Again HEKill is 4 should be much closer to, if not 25. The weapon was issued in 1941 but is available in the game from 1936.

The earliest German flamethrower, Flammenwerfer 35 has an issue date of 1935. Game has it available from 1933.
The earliest Italian flamethrower, Lanciafiamme 35 has an issue date of 1935 Game has it available from 1930.
Japanese service dates are correct.
Russia has the ROCS 2 flamethrower which entered service in 1935. Game has 1930.
According to Canfields US infantry weapons of WW2 and
http://www.allworldwars.com/Portable...ld-War-II.html
The earliest use of a flamethrower by the US army was flamethrower E1R1 at Buna, Papua in november 1942. Game has it available from 1930.
The same reference gives first USMC use of flamethrower as the M1 on Guadalcanal in Jan 1943. Game has it available from 1930.
Canfield also explains how it was strictly an engineer weapon until sometime in 1943 when the infantry began being trained in its use.
UK had the Marsden flamethrower in june 1941, But it apparently only got issued in very small numbers to home guard.
According to Bishops Encyclopedia of Weapons of WW2 British MkI flamethrower started service in mid 42 but was withdrawn from service in mid 43. The replacement MKII didn't start service until June 44. Game has start date of 1930.
I have seen this pattern for quite a few weapon service dates in the US/UK OOB. Most units that have flamethrowers actually are the correct unit type and have the correct dates. It looks as though at some point someone decided to add in the 'missing' 1930-42 flamethrowers by creating new units which included these weapons but without checking. The commonwealth countries have the same problem.
Manchuko flamethrower starts in 1941. I don't know if they had a flamethrower but if they did then start date should probably be the same as for japanese, 1933. Many Manchuko units have a start date of 1930 which is interesting as the state didn't exist until 1932 but I guess that is neither here nor there.
Poland, Spanish Republic, Bulgaria, Romania, Greece and Thailand all have 1930 start date. if they even did have any flamethrowers, then they would probably be bought from Italy so start date 35 might be appropriate. Thailand might have a japanese model.
France still had a wwI flamethrower in service in ww2 so they are actually the only country that should have the 1930 start date.

Everybody gets a fougasse but probably most armies never used one, US for example. Also there are fougasses and fougasses, Britain created thousands of them in 1940 using 40 gallon (181 lt) drums. These were for the defence of Britain, but some were used in Greece in 41. Game has start date of 30. These are probably what was being thought of when the Game gave Fousasse HEKill of 100.
The only other instances I can find of fougasse use is for Russia and Germany.
The German fougasse is listed as delivering 19, 22.7 or 29.5 litres of flame, It is a copy of the Russian fougasse FOG-1 containing 30 lts. So these weapons should get a HEKill of about 25 or so instead of 100. The Russian FOG-1 fougasses were encountered in 1941 and the German copy started service in 1942. Game has 30 start date for both. Otherwise I can't find any evidence of these weapons being used in other OOBs or at other times. They should probably be removed from the other OOBs.
UK also had the trolly style Harvey Medium flamethrower containing 100 or 127 lt. Germany had the very similar Mittlerer Flammenwerfer. Harvey may have seen no service. German Mittlerer withdrawn in 1941.

Russia Germany and US integrated Flamethrowers into infantry squads for assaults. For example Canfield describes a US assault squad as 18 men with three 2-man FT teams, Rifles, Bazookas, BARs.
Germans and Italians had Engineer Flamethrower platoons usually with 9 flamethrowers which could be allocated as necessary.
UK not so much
If you read through British and Commonwealth armies vol 1-4 by Mark Bevis you will find Manpack flamethrowers quite rare, no doubt because they prefered to use Crocodile.
A 1944 British Infantry division will contain 1 manpack flamethrower. So I would remove the flamethrower squads from UK OOB and give them a 2 man, size 0, flamethrower unit that can be attached to the platoon. It seems that only the US and French OOBs contain a size 0 flamethrower unit. I think these should be added into all the other OOBs that have flamethrowers as this reflects how they were employed. Also reflecting how they were employed I would give them movement speed of 1 or 2. Manpack flamethrower use was restricted to deliberate set piece fortification assaults.

I would suggest that flamethrowers shouldn't have any blast effect into adjacent hexes. Fuel jet is never more than a few metres wide and is very accurate. So aside from being unrealistic, If you are playing low morale units the suppression they take from their own sides weapon often makes them useless once the flaming is over, when they should be getting a morale boost.

Perhaps attach the OOB files to the Scenarios so the dates can be corrected without having to scan any scenarios.
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Old May 28th, 2021, 11:13 AM
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Default Re: Manpack flamethrowers

Perhaps you could explain to everyone exactly how ....

Quote:
attach the OOB files to the Scenarios so the dates can be corrected without having to scan any scenarios.
would work exactly.

This is, of course, the same idea I already told you would never, ever be implemented yet you persist in repeating it so you need to explain this so we ALL understand how it would "work"
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Old May 28th, 2021, 03:37 PM
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Default Re: Manpack flamethrowers

Italian weapon 85 is nothing more than a gasoline bomb.... a Molotov with the same ratings as the Molotov in the Russian OOB hence the name " bomba Benzina( bomb+petrol) . And it was named that way by the original OOB designer . The same goes for the German weapon 85 'Brandflasche' they are just gasoline bombs just like Weapon 85 in the Russian OOB and Weapon 85 in 24 other OOB's

But thanks so much for trying to turn them into something they're not but we already have an infantry flame thrower in the Italian OOB as weapon 83 Lanciafiamme. I have noted though that you say it was not issued until 1935 but the game has it issued to two whole units before then. Are you sure there wasn't a model used before then? They used the French Schilt 3bis in WW1.

And yes one (1) German unit has a flamethrower 15 months "too early" but they used them a lot in WW1... are you sure they were not used between the wars ?



Quote:
Many Manchukuo units have a start date of 1930 which is interesting as the state didn't exist until 1932 but I guess that is neither here nor there.
and yes you are correct. Many do start in 1930 which is as you say is "neither here nor there" because they aren't available until Manchukuo appears as a "nation" in March 1932 and the date inconsistency means nothing at all to the game but it does give you something else to point out to us.
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Old June 1st, 2021, 06:51 AM

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Default Re: Manpack flamethrowers

According to Canfield US infantry weapons of WW2
The US had no flamethrowers during WW1 and had no interest between wars in flamethrowers. They began development of their first flamethrowers in 1940, so definitely not.

British and American infantry weapons of ww2 by Barker says this
"Flame throwers were not employed by the British infantry until 1943."
I would assume he considers the limited introduction of the Mk I in 42 as an unsuccessful trial. It was after all withdrawn from service.

Generally I think it is fair to say that without any evidence of their use, they should be withdrawn. The argument that they should be included because leftovers from WW1 might of been used seems to be drawing a bit of a long bow. I can find no evidence of flamethrower use outside the service dates I supplied. I did look.

And of course nearly all armies were in penny pinching mode between the wars. A flamethrower is a complex piece of equipment containing perishable seals etc, it needs regular pressure testing and maintenance you can't just leave it on the shelf for two decades and pick it up and expect it to not incinerate the operator. Someone has to remember how to service and use it and how to train others in its use all of which is very expensive, and unlikely. No doubt they were mostly scrapped.

My apologies for mistaking the Molotovs for one shot flamethrowers. I am guessing then that the Italian Lanciafiamme Mod 41 assalto is missing from the game, Probably would be a useful addition as it is available form 1941.
I did manage to find the German FmW.46 this time round, So to recap weapon 142 FmW.46 has a half second burst delivering 1.7 lt of fuel, This is equivalent to a burst from a normal manpack flamethrower, actually better than some. So it should have a HEKill much closer to 25. Game has HEKill of 15. It is a weapon specifically designed for Paratroop and infantry assault groups and later issued to volksgenadier. Not sure why it would get a HE penetration of 6 whereas a manpack flamethrower gets a HE penetration of 0. HEAT penetration and warhead size should probably be the same as for the manpack as well so changing from 6 and 5 to 14 and 45. The weapon gets 5 or 6 shots but is actually only capable of one shot.
This site
https://de.zxc.wiki/wiki/Einstossflammenwerfer_46
give production first date as Oct 44 but first use in Battle of Berlin. Appears in the game from 2/1945.
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Old June 1st, 2021, 06:53 AM

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Default Re: Manpack flamethrowers

sorry for that I posted this before I read your comments.

Obviously if you could give me an Idea of how the scenarios and OOBs interact then that would be very helpfull in discussing how the "Changing OOB stuffs Scenarios" problem can be fixed. But I can speculate a bit in the interim.

So the idea is simple enough. Instead of the scenario using the current OOB files it needs to use the set of OOB files that were current when it was created. So far so good.

I would like to know exactly what use the scenario files make of the OOB files but as all these file sizes are minute by current standards it might be possible to incorporate whatever OOB information the scenario file is looking for straight into the spscn001.DAT file, when it is created, so it then becomes stand alone.

Another approach might be to keep the legacy OOBs

So you could create legacy folders
C:\WinSpww2\GameData\OObs\LegacyOOBs\v13.
By the time you are at v20 you would have 6 legacy OOB folders, \v14, \v15, \v16, \v17, \v18, \v19,
I don't know when the OOB files are loaded into memory, but when a scenario is opened the first thing it needs to do is open the appropriate legacy OOB file, instead of using the current OOB files. So it needs to call the OOB opening function and when it calls that function it needs to supply that function an argument which is the path to the appropriate legacy folder. Which the function should then substitute for the normal path. And then of course when it exits reload the current OOB files in a similar manner, no argument needed just run the function as normal.

To achieve this you would need to include a call to the OOB opening function and the path to the legacy file in the start of the scenario file.

For a scenaorio created today it would be
C:\WinSpww2\GameData\OObs\LegacyOOBs\v14
and if it can't find that folder which it won't as v14 is the Current OOB then when the code fails to find the legacy folder then by default it opens the current folder,
C:\WinSpww2\GameData\OObs. (using an error catcher)

OOB manager already has the required functionality "Restore Default OOBs" and "Pick Custom OOB Set" buttons which if they actually don't call the function that loads the OOBs they perform the same job. So you could press these buttons and then step through the code with Borland C++ watching which lines are used this will tell you what the code you are looking for looks like, and what needs to be included at the start of the spscn001.DAT file.

As a starting point you could drop the "Pick Custom OOB Set" code into the start of the scenario and then give it the correct path manullly. And drop the "Restore Default OOBs" code into the end.

In the purchace screen the code for the Allies button and what happens when you click a flag will also have some useful functionality for this job, for example listing the OOBs that need to be incorporated into the spscn001.DAT file.

As a programmer I would say this is relatively straighforward job. I would be happy to help in any way you deem fit. If it is too difficult a job for your current resources cheap programming assistance is out there.
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Old June 1st, 2021, 07:58 AM
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Default Re: Manpack flamethrowers

According to Shrapnel's SPWW2 and MBT you have to actually play it to understand how it works.

You can pontificate all you want on such and such author's "authority" on any given subject but if you actually played the game you'd understand part of your "issues" the other half is if you actually delved into designing scenarios that would open your understanding to the other half of how things work.

I doubt many are reading your zillion word posts, your just wasting space.
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Old June 1st, 2021, 10:35 AM
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Default Re: Manpack flamethrowers

Trust me..... there will be NO "LegacyOOBs" folder created. That ends the discussion about that idea.

I have noted down though to investigate start dates for flamethrower issue
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Old June 2nd, 2021, 02:20 AM
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Exclamation Re: Manpack flamethrowers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik View Post
weapon 142 FmW.46 .........The weapon gets 5 or 6 shots but is actually only capable of one shot.
The weapon gets 5 "shots" in a 10 man section and 6 in a 12 for the same reason 20 Handgrenades might be available to a 10 man section and 24 to a 12 man section. The 5 and 6 represent five or six of these weapons available to the sections NOT one weapon with 5 or 6 bursts. If it had been set up to represent one weapon with multiple busts it would have been the set up with the same number for both section sizes
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Old June 17th, 2021, 11:18 PM

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Default Re: Manpack flamethrowers

I see, there are several in a squad.
I had thought that because the FmW.46 and Lanciafiamme Mod 41 assalto's usefulness is extremely limited I assumed it would be issued not as a General purpose type of weapon, but only under specific circumstances same as the normal flamethrower. So just like a normal flamethrower I thought they would be issued singly, or perhaps just a few. Just speculating.

Oh and by the way I saw someone thinks I don't play the game, yes I do play the game, I spend a lot more time playing the game than writing these posts in fact.
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