Interesting Site: Wheeled vs. Tracked AFV (US)

[Backis]

JaM said:
Compare stats in encykolaedia between Zelda M113 and US Stryker.I know that this is the game and not a reality, but it will give you simple view of Stryker capabilities

Gee, the end-all game encyclopedia, if THAT says the M113 is in everything more versatile it must be so...

Except that it wouldn't and it doesn't.

You didn't state that you thought it "was better in the game", you stated;

In everything, they are more versatile.

Which is inherently false.

it is nothing more than BTR-80...

Gee... its a wheeled APC, M113 is a tracked APC... I guess thats so much better.

We are comparing two APC's here... one tracked, one wheeled, one designed in the 1950's, one "somewhat" later...

I'd say that its most likely the BTR-80 also would be superior to the M113 in this role...

Except for the rear engine and those crampy small side doors that is...

Why do you think Israelis declined Strykers for service?

The only reason they even inquired about the Styker was that they could use US funds to buy them, even then they were to gold-plated and expensive.

Sooner US Army will fight like Israel Army (urban area fighting) with Heavy APCs,

Yeah, the Israelis sure have pacified the Palestinians.

Oh, wait a minute...

I guess they US should hunker down, use the IDF methods and stay for, oh, thirty years, getting nowhere?

To begin with Palestinians have nowhere near the amount of heavy weaponry that is available to Iraqi insurgents.

I dont understand, why they looking for own way if there is a working solution...

Only in your dreams... IDF also suffer casualties in this type of op, Iraq is just on a much larger scale.

1. Spall liner protects infantry inside M113, it more RPG resistant than Stryker, with add on armor from Israelis could be RPG imune, M113 is better agains IED, antiinfantry mines cant stop it (stryker will be stopped - mobility kill)

Oh, I guess only the M113 have a spalling liner...

Actually most vehicles, including Stryker, has thosew nowadays...

And there is no "RPG immune" armour package for the M113. You shouldn't use "RPG" in that statement since it makes it meaningless.

Its actually more difficult to MK a Stryker than a M113. All you need to do that to a M113 is to make it throw a track. There have been cases where a Stryker have been hit by large IED's and been able to drive home with several wheel wells blown off. In that situation the M113 would need to have been towed out...

You can completely destroy several wheels on a Stryker with it retaining mobility, while knocking off one track on the M113 will completely immobilize it.

Most photographs of burnt out Strykers are of vehicles that have been hit and then been abandoned because stowage discipline has been bad and extra fuel carried outside the vehicle, leading to to vehicle being set on fire.

Here is whats left of an M113 that has been on fire...

http://www.undermars.com/images/mars0340.jpg

Lets focus on this though;

M113 is better agains IED

Feeling up to support this claim?

Wheeled vehicles are inherently more resistant to under body detonations due to increased standoff from the ground and better venting of the blast, that is a simple fact.

The Stryker is designed with IED's and mines in mind, the M113 was not. Why is it superior in this area?

Luck?

Most casualties however are from unbuttoned personell. Both the Stryker and M113 will be unbuttoned with heads up in most situations (situational awareness is important enough to ensure that for a couple of more decades), so there is no real difference here except against big detonations.

Practical level of protection for the M113 and M1114 are the same. Both stop all but the worst IED fragments. Both stop 7.62mm API, neither will stop PG-7M. The M113 can stop 12.7 frontally, which is a small advantage, but the mobility advantage of the M1114 definately outweighes this.

2.72km/h is not slow,With tracks you can go offroad even in bad terain, stryker cant.

72kph? Well, if you add all the extra motive improvements available, remove the spalling liner and forego extra armour packages, maybe... and don't load up to much gear and find a long nice downhill stretch of road...

Otherwise closer to 50.

M113s are unable to keep up with wheeled convoys who routinely hold 100kph throughout their routes. All other problems I mentioned with being slower remains.

Strykers, M1114 and M1117 gives as equal or better protection to all relevant threats (smallarms, IED) while still being loads faster and better at responding/reacting to emerging threats.

All types including MBT share vulnerabilities against large IED and various RPG rounds

The whole convoy has to slow down and increase exposure time.

Tracked vehicles do generally have an advantage in tactical mobility but they are disadvantage in long distance road marches.

And you state that the Stryker can't drive in terrain at all?

Its not a frickin school bus dude.

ABSOLUTES is your enemy dude...

3.Fuel comsumtion s not so high as you think

Enough to make a difference. Tracked vehicles also demand more maintenance, but please, feel free to ignore reality again.

4.better protection compensate this.

Marginally better protection against a HMG kinetic threat that isn't there...

"RPG immunity", whatever that means, exist only in your mind

look at thelink posted there...

Why don't you just start calling it Gavin too... the guy is a crackpot.


Btw, how about retracting...

In everything, they are more versatile.

...to begin with?

You're maiking my job EASY. I don't have to prove that the Stryker is generally superior (I wouldn't try, they are good at different jobs, but with advantages to the Stryker for being so much younger), but pushing down this bombastic claim is no hard at all...

A hint, go to tanknet.org and do a search on M113. There are people there who actually served on M113 and Strykers.

its not the end-all of wisdom, but its a good place to start.

[Pyros]

Gentlemen,

This is a very interesting discussion,
but let's calm down a bit.

thanks,
Pyros

[JaM]

Gavin is unofficial name for M113. Humwees have same protection as M113? I dont think so. Best example is Somalia 93, where US rangers convoy had big looses just becouse they drive in them.10.moutain division saved their asses in M113...
There are RPG immune vehicles, best of all is Israeli Achzarit, but they have an M113 modification that is able resist RPG-7 fire (proven many times) What is a cost of Stryker? 2 milion dolars? You can buy dozens of M113 and equip them with passive armor+SLAT array with not overloading the suspension as happends Stryker,and dont forget, that Stryker with addon armor+SLAT dont have such great mobility... With wheeled APC you must stay on the road,tracked wehicles could go offroad easilly.

[JaM]

Im tanknet member, i read those disscusions about Stryker. 2mil usd is too big price for light armored wheeled APC...
What do you think about this? http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/doc.../BearFacts.pdf

[JaM]

About those Convoy escorts, Insurgents will stop convoy even it goues 200mph,all they need to do is block the road... M113 can break thru, Stryker will not. I dont understand people that think that speed is better than armor.You will never be as fast as round that hit you.

[PlasmaKrab]

Gentlemen, remember the loads of bucks involved in this IAV business...

On both sides, both Stryker builders and M-113 promoters have huge interests in persuading the Army their project is the best one.

The amount of lobbying and media spinning is unbeliavable! Just look closely at the early Stryker casualty reports!

Both sides have a point. The M-113 (no official or unofficial name as yet I think, apart from 'Zippo' from the Tsahal guys who went bored of the aluminium hull and clumsy fuel tanks sending fireworks in the early versions' troop compartment ) is a reliable design which can be improved to many ends, like many people are doing. Not only in Israel, but also in Canada (FMTV), Turkey (TIFV), Jordan, Denmark, South Korea (KIFV), Australia...

Particularly in the Israeli case, where a tracked vehicle is the best for that very kind of urban warfare. There are no mines around, they have uparmoured their tin boxes to a no return point, long-range mobility is not a point, noise only add to the psychological edge, and the terrain gets so rugged that they even removed the rubber lining on the Merkava's road whells, since it was getting eaten away by both rocks and vibrations.

Now the Stryker is a controversial program, certainly costly, but not as much as it could have been.
The thing is mostly a Piranha III hull with a delirious electronics suite (which gives it a good edge in the right cinditions), and the Piranha III is a reliable and field-proven design which was already in use in several countries when the US fielded the Stryker. Look at the Canadian reports in UNSOM-II missions and you will see what "mine resistant" means!
Right now it is also pretty young, and bound to some early problems. A bloody insurrection war thousands of miles away is not the best environment for field testing and post-development.

Endlessly upgrading the 'gavin' instead of buying new hardware would be like dumping the Abrams and fitting makeshift improvements on old M60A1 tanks!

So please all stop bickering about that subject, you won't change a thing to it! You are only confusing matters by bringing political arguments (already quite pointless) out of context!

Now I know that trying to cool things down by sheer reasoning plus my very own twist for short explanations will get me flogged, but hey, what the hell, this IS a forum!

[SCAJolly]

I am surprised someone have the patience and, in my honest opinion, the STUPIDITY to spend so much time and "research" on such a long, idiotic, extremely subjective and biased piece of work. This qualifies for a "Most fooged up way of spending a heck lot of spare time".
As for tracked/road, there are benefits of both, depending on the scenery.

[Backis]

JaM said:
Im tanknet member, i read those disscusions about Stryker. 2mil usd is too big price for light armored wheeled APC...

Apparently without learning much...

What do you think about this? http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/doc.../BearFacts.pdf

Have I stated that the "medium brigade" is a perfect concept?

No.

Do I have to defend or prove that it is?

No.

Are you trying change the subject so you don't have to fess up to your unsupported statement regarding tracked vehicles all-encompassing superiority over wheeled vehicles in any situation and at every task?

Yes.

About those Convoy escorts, Insurgents will stop convoy even it goues 200mph,all they need to do is block the road... I dont understand people that think that speed is better than armor.You will never be as fast as round that hit you.

Sheesh...

Longer transport times=greater risk of attack.

Even IF I acknowledge that the M113 is protected better in a way that is relevant for this scenario (I don't really), the HEMTT's won't be...

Are you now suggesting transporting fuel, water and ammo for everyone in Iraq by M113?

M113 can break thru, Stryker will not.

I'm gonna give this pearl of wisdom the answer it deserves.

[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cheese.gif[/img]

Gavin is unofficial name for M113.

Ah gawd, the infection spreads...

Amongst a small number of people who doesn't have a clue, yes it is.

It started off by a guy named Sparks that is seeking immortality by naming the M113 Gavin, and in so achieving "immortality".

Apparently he works for UD too...

Quite sad actually...

Humwees have same protection as M113? I dont think so.

You do know that the M1114 is ONE model of humwee, as in "all M1114 are humwee, but not all humwee are M1114" right?

And if you actually had read what I wrote you'd have read;

Practical level of protection for the M113 and M1114 are the same. Both stop all but the worst IED fragments. Both stop 7.62mm API, neither will stop PG-7M. The M113 can stop 12.7 frontally, which is a small advantage, but the mobility advantage of the M1114 definately outweighs this.

Since the HMG threat is low, the extra aluminum armour on the M113 doesn't give any more relevant PRACTICAL protection in the Iraqi theatre.

But please, feel free to take snippets of text out of its context and makebelieve I wrote things I didn't.

Best example is Somalia 93, where US rangers convoy had big looses just becouse they drive in them.10.moutain division saved their asses in M113...

Not a single M1114 had been built at that time... so how did they drive them?

They didn't...

They used M988's that are light trucks with no more protection than a civvie SUV...

The M1114 is protected against small arms, most shrapnel and is mineprotected.

There are RPG immune vehicles, best of all is Israeli Achzarit, but they have an M113 modification that is able resist RPG-7 fire (proven many times)

You just don't get it right?

"RPG" isn't a weapon, its a TYPE of weapon. There is no vehicle existant today that is allround immune to all RPG type weapons. If you MEAN anything try to use terms that is understandable. If you load up that RPG-7 (a term not interchangeable with "RPG") with an OG-7 warhead I can show you an Austin Mini that is reasonable "proof" against it... The M1114 would be "immune", so I guess along your line of reasoning even the "humwee" is "immune to RPG"...

Achzarit is based in the T-55 while the newer Namera is based on the Merkava, so I guess I'd believe the Namera being a tad better protected.

The issue here is however your statement;

In everything, they are more versatile.

Which is still wrong.

What is a cost of Stryker? 2 milion dolars? You can buy dozens of M113 and equip them with passive armor+SLAT array with not overloading the suspension as happends Stryker,and dont forget, that Stryker with addon armor+SLAT dont have such great mobility... With wheeled APC you must stay on the road,tracked wehicles could go offroad easilly.

Does it matter?

You get a lot of equipment for the money. A TI OHWS and advanced C4I gear. thats the stuff costing money, hang it on a M113 and see the price soar to comparable levels.

The worlds best protected HAPC will do no-one any good when its in the wrong place...

I haven't stated that HAPC or even small tracked APC's are useless, I don't think they are, I don't have to prove that they are.

You have however stated;

In everything, they [tracked vehicles] are more versatile [than wheeled vehicles].

You are wrong and just refuse to admit this, you are merely trying to spin-doctor your way out of the hole you've dug for yourself to sit in.

One would think I've quoted that statement of yours enough so that you'd feel obliged to either support or retract it by now...


Now start to show some sense or I will happily ignore you.

[Backis]

SCAJolly said:
I am surprised someone have the patience and, in my honest opinion, the STUPIDITY to spend so much time and "research" on such a long, idiotic, extremely subjective and biased piece of work.

Hey man, its the weekend and I've got no booze money!

[JaM]

About M113 unofficial name look at this for example http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m113.htm
"The M113A1, informally known as the Gavin, is a lightly armoured full tracked air transportable personnel carrier designed to carry personnel and certain types of cargo...." So as you see, there are many people calling M113 gavin...

2mil for OHWS and C4I...Rafael makes much better and much cheaper systems,There is a M113 version with 2x7.62mm and one 12.7mm OWS.

With this armor modification is M113 capable stop even MILAN ATGM http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapo...13/Zelda2.html


About M113 vs M1114, you can easily mount SLAT armor to M113 without any big changes to a driving capabilities. (Stryker with SLAT is not so fast as you think,Its suspension is not build for such overweight.) Mayor Flaw of M1114 are front window, they are breakable with 7.62,broken glass is dangerous to driver, even if round will not penetrate.(As you maybe know M113 dont have windows...)
In Mogadishu fighting there wasnt even one M998 in the convoy.Most of wounded crew of humwees were hit thru the windows or when they fired from .50cal