MA Marignon... Any thoughts?

[OmikronWarrior]

So, I have been messing around with this nation... and quite honestly it has all the hallmarks of a stinker. I think it gets over rated due to a halo effect with LA Marignon and MA Pythium.

Its infantry are resource intensive and only have map move 1. Its mages suffer from old age and absolutely crippling lack of magic diversity. It has two sacred units, one is capital only and costs 60 resources to produce and the other dies like a fly almost irrespective of bless. Almost anything it does well, Pythium does better. Just compare a Witch Hunter to a Theurg, both cost 150 gold. The Hunter gets Fire-2, Atral-1, Holy-1, but the Theurg gets Astral-2, Air-1, Water-1, Holy-2.

So, has anyone had any success with this nation, and have any tips to share? I can see a them working as a bless rush nation, and maybe even some legs into the mid-game when they spam Falling Fires with every mage... but long term not even a Rainbow will solve their diversity problem.

[13lackGu4rd]

sure, MA Marignon is not among the strongest MA nations, unlike Pythium which is top notch. however it still doesn't make them absolutely terrible. also, I wonder why you keep comparing MA Marignon to MA Pythium, is it because of the angel summons that they share? cause other than that they play rather differently...

for your armies, Royal Guards(cavalry with shields) and Crossbowmen are map move 2, the rest are map move 1. so your national armies should consist mainly of Royal Guards and Crossbowmen. it's exactly what you need, blockers and archers, without unnecessary slow fodder unless you need them for specialized tasks. fire magic+crossbows=flaming arrows, which is an obvious go to spell. KotC are great sacred cavalry, and they work well even with a rainbow bless, so you can still use a rainbow to diversify and still use the KotC effectively.

as for your mages, unlike the Abysias who have fire but pretty much nothing else, MA Marignon has Astral. sure, Pythium has more Astral, but you still can't afford to ignore what you got with MA Marignon. massive Falling Fires communions is great, but it suffers from the Abysia syndrome. all you need to counter it is fire resistance/immunity. there are other things you can use such as Magma Eruption(with your cap only Grandmasters), Astral Fires, Prison of Fire, Blindness(great against thugs/SCs), etc and of course the usual Astral battle magic.

Paladins make for solid recruit everywhere thugs, stick a brand+shield on them and they're good to go, they can even bless themselves. hopefully your bless includes at least E4N4. other than that, you also got recruit everywhere H3 Inquisitors who are also mages, so they can join(with items) and benefit from communions.

MA Marignon's main theme however is the inquisition, aka anti undead. it's the best nation to deal with MA Ermor and other death nations such as C'tis(though weaker death than EA and LA). the usual bonuses apply to both undeads and demons, so you're also very strong against blood nations, unfortunately in MA only Abysia and Vanheim have blood, but it's still 2 nations more to the list of hard countered nations. than again, a lot of nations benefit from bootstrapping into death and blood, so any nation that uses demons or undeads will have a very hard time dealing with MA Marignon.

now, a well built rainbow will solve most of your diversity problems. there are plenty of MA nations that aren't very versatile, just take a look at Vanheim, Abysia, Man, Eriu, etc. compared to those nations, you have a good amount of Astral, which can never be underestimated. any other magic you can heavily use can be easily bootstrapped into via a rainbow.

so yes, fire is considered as perhaps the worst magical element, angels without pearls are way too expensive to really rely on and bless rushes will only carry you so far. but there are still a lot of possibilities with the magic you naturally have, and a lot more with your pretender, as long as you choose a rainbow. the F9S9 Baphomet for the Flagellants is just junk, forget about it...

[OmikronWarrior]

The major thing missing from your description, Blackguard, is an expansion strategy. Marignon does not get a lot of lee-way with scales. The Royal Guardsmen cost a lot of gold, to say nothing of resources. I will also point out some of those other nations lacking Diversity are considered some of the game's weakest.

Though I agree Marignon is very well equiped to beat up on Ermor.

[13lackGu4rd]

I did mentioned expansion, 2 ways in fact. 1 is with Royal Guards+Crossbowmen, another is with rainbow blessed KotC. take your starting army, add a few crossbowmen and you're good to go for turn2 expansion, than choose either method and continue expanding.

[GameExtremist]

I am at turn 90 in a game with MA Marignon, I'm arguably the most powerful nation and have at times fought off 3 opponents at one time.

You need to survive the initial rush of the eraly game and tech too your summons.

Ashen Angels are simply awesome at 35 astral gems. Blood vengeance.

After that you have Seraphs one of the most powerful SC's in the game. 4A4S4F with lots of bonuses and able to bumped up to A8 or A9 easily enough.

Your main armies will consist of the cheaper cavalry (not the sacreds) and crossbowman. Have an 4F mage with large numbers of xbowman for flaming arrows.

Massed witch hunters can form communions and also lay down awesome amounts of Astral fires, holy pyres and falling fires.

Dominion push is acheivable with this nation.

Your pretender must be a rainbow type due to the need to disversify for items for your SC's etc.

They are by no means a weak or mediocre nation.

[DragonRider]

I may be a total newbie in my first ever multiplayer game, but I haven't had any trouble with MA Marignon so far.

Expanding is no problem. National infantry is too cumbersome? Then screw 'em. Don't build any. Produce nothing but casters, crossbowmen, and cavalry (in CBM, Royal Guards are 30/30 and Knights of the Chalice are 80/37). Send your starting army to take adjacent provinces, putting the Pikeneers in front to die (there are enough of them to win your early battles before they're gone).

Then, after a couple of turns, meet up with them with several turns' worth of cavalry and--and I think this might be critical--a couple of Witch Hunters. With an awake Rainbow Mage dedicated to research, you can hit Evocation 3 pretty quick (though you may have to settle for Flame Bolt for a couple of turns before it finishes up) before you start site searching. Two volleys of crossbow bolts plus six fireballs plus Smites wears down attacking independents enough that they'll frequently rout after the first cavalry charge, keeping losses to a minimum. Pick up some Light Infantry or whatever to serve as chaff if you can (they may suck, but they're cheap, don't tie up your capital, and have 2 map move, so they get the job done). Later on, it shouldn't be too hard to get a second group of Royal Guards and Crossbowmen let by another pair of Witch Hunters (all worthwhile Marignon mages and priests have good leadership, which is convenient) to start mopping up weak provinces the main force left behind.

Magic diversity is an obvious concern, but with a rainbow pretender it's not as bad as it looks. Harbingers come with A3, so the ones that aren't thugging can follow your armies casting Wind Guide or Arrow Fend or whatever, and A4 on your pretender or a Ring of Wizardry gets them making boosters. A minimum of W2N1D1 (preferably W3 to mitigate Construction needs) will get you W3N3 and W3D3 as long as you aren't screwed out of water gems. The E2 you no doubt took for Earth Boots and Dwarven Hammers can get you an E3 Troll King. Now you have at least 3 in every path except Blood, and you didn't even have to deviate from blitzing straight for Harbingers to get them. With equipment and communion boosts, the odd E1 and A1 Grand Master can access non-fire evocations, and even the lowly Witch Hunters can manage at least Astral Fires backed with Light of the North Star and communion-propagated Power of the Spheres if you desperately need non-fire damage.

I'm not too sure about long-term prospects, as I have no real late-game experience (I assume fire-reliance gets worse, but angelic summons just keep getting better), but out of the gate MA Marignon seems serviceable enough to my untrained eye.

[Warhammer]

I would also point you in the direction of some of the recent Abysia guides for EA, as they apply in some ways to MA Marignon. The key to MA Marignon is surviving the early game. If you can, you thrive in the mid- to late- game eras.

I do think you need good production and at least some order scales. Growth is nice due to old age on your mages. You need to take A4 at least, and E4 is great for your mages. N4 might make some sense to cut down on afflictions. Other than that, a standard rainbow works well, you can probably skimp a little on death magic since you have astral for late game.

The key is to survive the early game. Also, slow research is a killer.

[Squirrelloid]

4 blessed KotCs can expand just fine with a priest to bless them.

And you take productivity scales. Its sort of required.

Really, Marignon can totally do a light RB bless with scales build.

[SsSam]

I'm 100 turns into a losing game as Marignon, but it isn't the nations' fault.

Knights and crossbows can take any indy you can find. Even if you pretender isn't designed with a bless in mind, blessed Kotc do just fine.

Set your production high and you can expand as fast as most other nations. You DO need some luck with indies for magical diversity, but that's true for a lot of nations and the paths that you don't have (death/water/nature) are usually paths that indies have. Of course, you could take the sure thing and let your rainbow take care of diversity.

While you don't have access to a lot of things as Marignon, you DO have decent access to astral and that's the queen of the late game.

Then, or course, you have the angels. Very, very nice national summons. Dominon pushing priests, Assassins and spies, there are a lot of fun tools in the toolbox here.

One tool that's easy to overlook.....flagellents. Take a thematic, cheesy f9s9 bless and ...dang....they are recruitable everywhere and don't cost much of anything. Who is gonna bring archers to fight Marignon?

Now, I wouldn't play marignon as a bless nation all the time, but it is available and a ton of fun. With that bless your KOTC will go toe to toe with just about anything.

[iRFNA]

Just follow your heart and do the 9D9B bless you truly want. Mass those flagellants (forts and temples everywhere), add in tons of combat nukes from blessed mages, and put shrouds on your mages for ritual nukes. 10 dom, abysmal scales, and lots of preaching to spread the love to your neighbors. Come on, you know it's what you really desire.

9D9B dormant fountain of blood with 10 dom, 3 turmoil, 3 sloth, 3 heat, 3 death, 3 luck, 3 magic.. oh yes