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Old February 19th, 2020, 04:43 AM

Kiwikkiwik Kiwikkiwik is offline
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Default French Italian and Japanese ammunition

Hello I hope this post finds you a bit rested.

The ammunition loadouts from S. Zaloga's book French Tanks of WW2 differ from those in the game.
Unit 12 Char-B1 bis has 76 47mm shells. Game gives 50.
Units 005, 175 and 188, H35 have 100. Game gives 150.
Unit 004 R35 has 100. Game gives 150.
Unit 194 R40 has 90. Game gives 58.
Units 006, 176 and 189, H39 have 100. Game gives 150.
Units 395 and 396 AMC P16 Mle 29 have 100. Game has 30.
Unit 001 AMC-35 has 95. Game has 50.

I turned up something interesting for Italian ammunition. Most Italian field guns are missing their HEAT Shells. The changes suggested here greatly improve Italian AT capabilities.
From this thread we get overall ammunition outlays.
https://comandosupremo.com/forums/in...p-speciale.52/
We have
"47/32........................................1/3 ordonarie (HE), 1/3 perforanti (AP), 1/3 E.P. (HEAT)
65/17..........................................2/3 ordonarie, 1/3 E.P.
75/13 e 75/18-34......................9/10 ordonarie, 1/10 E.P.
75/18-35....................................1/3 ordonarie, 1/3 perforanti, 1/4 E.P.
75/18..........................................3/4 ordonarie, 1/4 E.P.
75/27-06. 11 e 12.....................3/4 ordonarie, 1/4 E.P.
75/32 .........................................1/3 granate (shrap), 1/3 perforanti, 1/3 E.P.
100/17 mod. 14 e 16................1/2 ordonarie, 1/4 E.P. 1/4 a d.e."
This link shows that HEAT (Effetto Pronto or E.P.) Shells were usually 1/3-1/4 of the total ammunition allocation. In the Game it is often much less. E.P. has the fuse in the rear, and E.P.S. has the fuse in the front, penetraton is apparently the same. From the same link availability is given as "EP was available for the 100/17 in mid 1942 (June/July), while EPS was available in May 1943. 47/32 EP was available to tank and c.c. units in A.S.(Afica), and to the artillery units under the command of the 8th Army (in Russia) at the beginning of 1942 (Jan/Feb). By 1 May 1942, there were 12,537 of the 47/32 EP rounds in A.S. For the 75/27 series, EP, EPS and EP M42 were available. By June 1942, both the 75/27 series and the 75/18 for semoventi had......ammunition that included EP in A.S."
Elsewhere in the thread it gives
65mm EP first issued April 42.
75mm EP first issued late 41.
105mm EP first issued March 43
EP was issued in late 1941 but only for testing. In the Book Italian medium tanks by Cappellano and Battistelli he gives two EP shell penetrations.
75/18 EP shell 70mm @ 500m and says 75/34 HEAT round performance is very similar, and
105/25 100mm @ 500.

As HEAT is cheap and easy to make (Unlike sabot or Tungsten) and doubles as HE increase I think it is reasonalble to increase allocations to match the overall issues as above. Here is a breakdown of how this effects the relevant weapons and units.

Weapon 19 47mm L32 Mod.35
Units with this weapon currently has no EP Shells.
Units 483, 485, 488, AS-42 CC-47, SPA 35 AS-47 and TL-37 AS-47 can have their EP ammuniton added as service start dates are after EP introduction date (Jan42).
The service dates of these units straddle the EP introduction date.
004 M-13/40 - uClass 013 05/040 to 11/042
018 C/C 47L32 M.35 - uClass 006 06/035 to 11/042
096 C/C 47L32 M.35 - uClass 006 06/035 to 11/042
477 Autocannone 47 - uClass 052 06/041 to 12/046
You might make 018 and 096 pre and post EP versions of the gun (the radio code and ammo loadout seem to be the only differences) and maybe duplicate 004 and 477 to get pre and post EP units. I guess extend the pre version past the EP introduction date. Then there are the Fortinos, units 091, 378, 379, 383. According to Wiki this gun was used in the Alpine wall. Service start date for 47mm L32 Mod.35 is 1935.

Weapon 21 47mm L32 Mod.39
Units 153, 537, C/C 47L32 M.39 and M-14/41 already have their EP. Units 591, 712, SMV L.40 47L32 and SMV L.40 47L32 can have their EP added, their service start date is after the EP introduction date.
The service dates of these units straddle the EP introduction date (Jan42). These 3 don't have EP
005 M-14/41 - uClass 013 09/041 to 02/042
152 C/C 47L32 M.39 - uClass 006 09/039 to 02/042
269 Para C/C 47L32 - uClass 184 08/041 to 12/046
Perhaps duplicate these 3 to give a pre and post EP introduction date version and I guess extend the pre version past the EP introduction date. Service start date for 47mm L32 Mod.39 is 1939.

Weapon 23 47mm L40 Mod.42
Units 352, 530, Celere and M14 Sgombratore already have their EP, 352 has only 4 shells. Units 006, 495, M-15/42 and Autoblinda 43 can have their EP added, their service start date is after the EP introduction date (Jan42).

Weapon 031 Cannone 65L17
Unit 397 Postazione already has its EP Shells, but straddles EP introduction date (April 42) Weapon 031 has a HEAT value of 4 maybe should be 6 considering the 75/18 HEAT value is 7. Units 499, 510, 635, Fiat 2000, AB Coloniale and Cannone 65mm end service dates are before EP introduction date.
The service dates of these units straddle the EP introduction date (April 42). None Have EP.
058 Morris w/ 65/17 - uClass 039 09/041 to 12/046
320 Cannone 65/17 - uClass 016 01/030 to 12/045
321 Cannone 65mm - uClass 238 1/030 to 12/045
491 Morris w/ 65L17 - uClass 052 09/041 to 12/046
593 Cannone 65/17 - uClass 154 01/030 to 12/045

Weapon 038 65mm M32 L17,unit 007, Ansaldo 9t (P) end service date before EP introduction date.

Weapon 034 Cannone 75L13
Unit 637 can stay as is, end date 12/41.
The other 3 have no EP. Their service dates of these units straddle the EP introduction date.(Jun 42)
324 Cannone 75/13 - uClass 016 01/030 to 12/045
325 Cannone 75/13 - uClass 238 09/036 to 12/045
595 Cannone 75/13 - uClass 154 01/030 to 12/045

Weapon 039 75mm L18 Mod.34
Units 009, 038, 347, SMV M.40 75L18, SMV M.40 75/18 and SMV M.40 75L18 correctly have no EP. End service date predates EP issue date.
Units 260, 539, 540 and 541, SMV M.40 75L18 and the rest of the SM V M.41 75L18 have EP. 539 has only 4 EPs.
75/18-34 EP loadout is 1/10 because this is for the mountain gun, Mod 34. SMV should have the Mod. 35 EP loadout of 1/4 EP or more.

Weapon 032 75mm L18 M34/35
The service dates of this unit straddles the EP introduction date.(Jun 42)
019 Obice Montagna 01/034 to 12/046
You could duplicate this unit to give a pre and post EP introduction date version, and I guess extend the pre version past the EP introduction date. Doesnt have its EP shell.

Weapon 245 75mm L18 Mod.34
Unit 365 has its EP.
Units 327, 638 both Cannone 75L18 end service dates are before EP issue date.
The service dates of these units straddle the EP introduction date.( Jun 42)
326 Cannone 75/18 - uClass 016 01/035 to 12/045
596 Cannone 75/18 - uClass 154 01/037 to 12/045
Neither has its EP.

Weapon 029 Obice da 75L27.
The service dates of these units straddle the EP introduction date.(Jun 42). None of these 5 currently have their EP shells.
030 Cannone 75/27 - uClass 009 01/030 to 09/043
378 Fortino Alpino - uClass 254 09/035 to 12/046
379 Fortino Alpino - uClass 254 09/036 to 12/046
380 Fortino Alpino - uClass 254 01/030 to 12/046
388 Difesa Costiera - uClass 254 01/030 to 12/046

Weapon 102 75mm L27 Mod.34. (Field gun used as AA)
The service dates of these units straddle the EP introduction date.(Jun 42). All three are missing their EP.
008 Ceirano 75/27 - uClass 018 01/030 to 09/043
010 Ceirano 75/27 - uClass 019 01/030 to 09/043
497 TL-37 75L27 - uClass 052 03/042 to 06/043

Weapon 033 Obice da 75L32.
The service dates of these units straddle the EP introduction date.(Jun 42)
029 - Cannone 75/32 - uClass 009 01/041 to 12/046
091 - Fortino - uClass 000 01/036 to 12/046
Neither has EP.
Unable to confirm that this gun was ever used in the Alpine wall. It was relatively rare and much in demand elsewhere.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_Wall
Though this site did miss the inclusion of the 75/27 in the Alpine wall.

Weapon 044 75mm L34 Mod.42
Units 055, 080(unknown), 088, 353, P-26/40, SMV M.43 75L34, P-26/40 and Celere 75 have EP but could do with more. Units 086, 135, 261, SMV M.42 75L34, SMV M.42 75L34 and SMV M.42 75L34 are missing their EP. All have a start service date after EP issue date.

A great deal of the 75mm ammunition is interchangable between the different gun models.

Weapon 035 100L17 Mod16/35. (Skoda 100mm Model 16)
The service dates of these units straddle their EP introduction date.(Jun 42)
031 Obice da 100/17 - uClass 009 01/030 to 12/046
527 3RO 100L17 - uClass 021 09/041 to 06/043
Neither has its EP.

Weapon 74 100mm Skoda M88. (Skoda 100mm Model 16/19?)
381 Spelonca Alpino - uClass 254 01/036 to 12/046
Almost certainly used the same ammuinition as 100L17 Mod16/35 so missing its EP.

The three 105mm guns below all have a weapon HEAT value each of which is different. Of the 5 relevant units only unit 368 currently has a HEAT round issued. This reference
http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/...85-6-Italy.pdf
Lists in 105mm calibre AP and EPS(M43) shells for the 105/14. So unit 064 Obice da 105/14 can have AP and EP shells added.

Weapon 037 Obice da 105L14 (Game HEAT value 12)
The service dates of this unit straddle the EP introduction date (Mar 43).
064 Obice da 105/14 - uClass 009 Available 01/030 to 12/045
Doesn't have its EP or AP.

Weapon 68 Obice da 105L25. (Game HEAT value 11).
The service dates of this unit straddle the EP introduction date (Issue date of Mar 43 for the EPS shell but it has an EP shell also, date issued unknown but probably Jun 42.).
164 Obice da 105/28 - uClass 009 01/030 to 12/045
Maybe Typo? /25 weapon name but /28 unit name.
Italian 105/28 is the French Canon de 105 mle 1913 Schneider in Italian service.
Needs EP added

Weapon 247 105mm L11 Gun. (Game HEAT value 10)
328 Cannone 105/11 - uClass 016 06/040 to 12/045
329 Cannone 105mm - uClass 238 06/040 to 02/042
366 Cannone 105mm - uClass 238 03/042 to 12/045
597 Cannone 105/11 - uClass 154 06/040 to 12/045
Only 366 has a EP shell.
This seems to be the French Canon Court de 105 M(montagne) modèle 1919 Schneider which looks as though it did see Italian service.

If the 105 shells are interchangeable between the Italian 105/14 and French 105 mle and 105 montagne, which is quite possible, then the relevevant 105mm guns can all have HEAT Shells, but the PEN values should be the same. If not it is possible the Italians made EP HEAT Shells for the Fench guns, (Italian EP HEAT shells are apparently repurposed HE shells) though such shells aren't isnt listed in the Italian ammunition link I supplied. but would explain the game different HEAT penetration values.

Weapon 208 Obice da 105L25. (HEAT value 11)
Units 078, 262, 431, 710 SMV M.43 105L25, SMV M.43 105L25, SMV M.43 105L25 and SMV M.43 105L25
All have their EP but loadout should probably change to 1/3 HE 1/3 AP 1/3 EP(HEAT)
Service start date after EP introduction date (Issue date of Mar 43 for the EPS shell but this gun has an EP shell also, EP issue date unknown but probably Jun 42)

Looking at the Italian ammunition link we can see which guns have either AP (Perforanti) or HEAT (EP) Shells.
http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/...85-6-Italy.pdf
65L17 AP EP
70mm
75L13 AP EP
75L18 AP EP
75L27 AP EP
75L32 AP EP
75L34 (SMV) AP EP
100L17 EP
105L14 AP EP
105L25 EP
152L37 AP

So class 238 Improviso CC could be reconsidered, It contains,
321 Cannone 65mm 01/030 to 12/045
323 Cannone 70mm 09/036 to 12/040
325 Cannone 75/13 09/036 to 12/045
327 Cannone 75L18 01/035 to 02/042
329 Cannone 105mm 06/040 to 02/042
365 Cannone 75L18 03/042 to 12/045 Ep
366 Cannone 105mm 03/042 to 12/045 Ep
When the 88mm 25 pdr is used in the improviso CC role as unit 680 it gets an ammo loadout of 60 shells the Italians only ever get 40 the 105 30, so a comparable Italian ammunition increase would be fair. Actual numbers might be;
Canone 65 would get 20 AP(Sabot) and 40 HE pre EP introduction date April 42 and 40 HE 20 EP after.
327/365 would be 20 HE 20 AP(Sabot) 20 EP post jun 42 and maybe half HE half AP(Sabot) before EP introduction date of Jun 42
329 following 100mm style allocation would be 45 HE 15 AP(Sabot)
Or maybe just follow the 25 pdr style allocation of 40 sabot 20 HE for all this class.
323 has no AP so maybe its sabot second range should come down much lower than 60 as this is representing a HE shell rather than AP as are the rest.
65/17 was always intended to be used as a dual purpose Infantry support and AT weapon. 75/32 also was used in dedicated AT gun roles within Italian formations, but is missing in the Canone class 238.
Perhaps the few units with late 41 start dates can be given EP and left as is to represent test batches of the ammunition arriving in Africa in late 41.
Units 322, 323, 382, 594 and 636 use Weapon 249 Cannone 70L15. This is an antique with no recoil or traverse, picture is wrong, should probably have negative RF and FC values. see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannone_da_70/15
Same as for the 65/17, the Italian weapon 147 20mm Mod. 35/39 was always intended as a dual purpose AA/ AT weapon perhaps it could have a 50/50 AT HE loadout where it appears in units 011, 017, 479, 480, 487, 393, 573 and 578.
Italian 37mm AA are often missing their AP shells in fortifications, units 393 and 573. In unit 578 it gets 30 AP.

I also had a look at the book Rikugun vol 2 by Leland Ness and found that the japanese are also missing a lot of their HEAT (TA) and AP ammunition.

Weapon 049 75mm Type 90 Gn
097 - Bunker 01/044 to 12/046
485 - 75mm T 90 FG/AT 01/045 to 12/046
Weapon 045 75mm Type 90 FG
017 Ho-Ni I - uClass 021 05/043 to 12/046
030 75mm Type 90 FG 01/032 to 12/042
169 75mm Type 90 FG 01/043 to 12/046
484 75mm Type 90 FG 01/044 to 12/046
Weapon 049 first used in China in 40. Unit 017, 30 produced between June 1941 and March 42. Game start date of 05/43 may correspond to first time encountered by Allies. According to Wiki Type 90 was often used as an AT gun against Allied forces,only unit 485 has a large AP allocation, So maybe bring unit 485 start service date to 1/37 instead of 1/45. APHE ammunition was available from 1935. Ruikugun sites 10,000 rounds produced in 1937. Type 1 AP is available from 1941 these dates apply to all the 75mm calibre guns mentioned here. As I understand it penetration for the 2 rounds is the same.

Weapon 46 75mm L38 Type 3
012 Type 3 Chi-Nu - uClass 105 06/044 to 12/046
019 Ho-Ni III - uClass 018 01/045 to 12/046
This weapon does not have a HEAT shell, Unit 012 has HEAT ammunition should be removed. I dont know what the sabot shell represents, these guns only had two types of AP, Type 95 APHE and Type 1 AP, Im pretty sure both have a pentration of 10.

From Rikugun, ammunition production for the Type 41 FH (Regimental and Mountain)
1943 120,000 HE, 475,000 HEAT, 34,000 AP
1944 169,000 HE, 152,000 HEAT
1945 37,000 HE, 55,000 HEAT
Weapon 037 75mm Type 41 FH
156 - 75mm Inf-Gun - uClass 154 01/030 to 12/046
This gun has no HEAT or AP ammunition allocated. Should have both.
37,840 AP shells produced for the gun in 1941, HEAT ammunition in service by May 43. So probably create a half HE half AP version as in the Type 90 FG/AT unit 485, with similar service dates. They may have produced enough AP by 1944 to rely on stockpiles after that. And from May 43 maybe a HEAT firing version half HEAT, half HE loadout to correspond to the production figures. As a front line gun Type 41 Regimental gun was expected to serve in an AT role. According to Rikugun the Type 41 FH AP shell could penetrate 35mm at 500m. The book gives two different HEAT penetrations, 100mm and 75mm.

Weapon 038 75mm Type 94 FH
157 75mm Mtn Gun - uClass 009 01/035 to 12/046
184 75mm Mtn Gun - uClass 196 01/030 to 12/046
The weapon has a HEAT penetration value of 8 but no HEAT ammunition allocated in units. HEAT ammunition for this gun becomes available in 1944. Rikugun says 37,000 HEAT shells produced in 44. Probably half HE half HEAT/AP is appropriate when in formations like 169 and 240 where its a battalion gun. So after 44 can have two versions Full HE load and half HE half HEAT. Fires same HEAT shell as Type 41, unit 037
The book Japanese tank and antitank warfare gives the following AP penetrations for this gun.
APHE at 300 yds 2.8 inches
APHE at 1000 yds 2.3 inches
This is equivalent to a game penetration value of 7 at 300m for this gun firing AP. This seems unrealistically high to me .

Weapon 036 75mm Type 38 FH
053 75mm Type 38 FH - uClass 009 01/030 to 12/046
062 Pillbox - uClass 000 01/030 to 12/046
Sources differ as to wether or not this gun received HEAT ammo. A HEAT round was developed but Rikugun is unsure if it entered production. AP penetration would be a little better than weapon 037 Type 41 FH (35mm at 500m) as same shell but in a barrel about twice as long. . It has AP (sabot) penetration of 3 at the moment. The gun is actually a licence built Krupp 7.5 cm Model 1905 Field Gun. The Italian 75L27 is a licence built Krupp 7.5 cm Model 1906 Field Gun and has a AP pen of 5 which is probably closer to the mark for the Type 38. The game has a HEAT penetration for this weapon of 5 but no HEAT issued to the two units that use it. As the shells, (projectiles, cases differ) in 75mm calibre were very interchangeable, if Type 38 did fire HEAT the penetration would be the same as for Type 42 Regimental gun, 8 or 10.

Weapon 041 75mm L24 Type99
011 Type 2 Ho-I - uClass 105 01/044 to 12/046
This is the tank version of weapon 037 firing the same ammunition, so HEAT value should be 8 or 10 not 5.

Rikugun gives ammunition production for Howitzers in the 105mm calibre as
1944 HE 25,000 HEAT 4500.
1945 HEAT 13,400 no HE.
So HEAT first issued for 105mm calibre in 44
Weapon 071 105mm Type91 FH
018 - Ho-Ni II - uClass 021 11/043 to 12/046
054 - 10cm Type 91 FH - uClass 009 01/031 to 12/046
HEAT penetration at 12 is correct for this gun but AP Penetration seems low at 6
The book Japanese tank and antitank warfare gives the following AP penetrations for Type 91 field howitzer.
APHE at 250 yds 2.95 inches
APHE at 500 yds 2.8 inches
APHE at 750 yds 2.7 inches
Which equates to 75mm at 250 yds.
Need to make a pre and post HEAT introduction date (1/44?) version of 054. Maybe 018 as well but only out by one month.

This weapon is missing from the OOB, the 120mm Type 38 Howitzer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_38_12_cm_howitzer
It has AP and HEAT ammuinition the HEAT penetration is according to Rikugun 140mm.
AP penetration is probably similar to Weapon 074 120mm Short NG which has 7.
Served for the entire war.

Weapon 80 150mm Type38 FH
020 - Type 4 Ho-Ro - uClass 130 07/044 to 12/046
483 - 150mm Type38 FH - uClass 009 01/036 to 12/046
Weapon 80 only lasted in Japanese service until about 1940 when it was Replaced by the Type 4 which fired exactly the same ammunition. Type 4 was issued a HEAT round about 1944 So can create a Type 4 with HEAT ammunition starting about 1/44 leaving Type 38 as a proxy Type 4 without HEAT until wars end. Unit 020 could have fired Type 4 HEAT I dont know if any was ever issued to this vehicle, would make sense though. Type 38 max range is 5900m Type 4 has 9575m
150mm HEAT round's penetration is 150mm. Type 38 and Type 4 both fire AP. AP penetration is hard to come by, but 150mm Type 96 Howitzer AP-HE penetrations, according to Japanese tank and antitank warfare are;
250 yds 124mm
500 yds 119mm
750 yds 112mm
1000 yds 102mm
As the cartridge case of unit 079 Type 96 is about 3 times the size than Type 38/4s then I guess Type 38/4 AP penetration would be about 42mm (1/3 of 124mm) at 250m. They built about 111 Type 4s starting in 1934 and about 598 Type 96 starting from 1936, Type 96 Howitzer would make a very handy on-map unit. It fires AP-HE and the same HEAT shell as weapon 80.
Type 38, Type 4 and Type 96 all shared the same projectiles, but can have them matched to different cases.

Weapon 104 150mm Type89 FG
435 - 150mm Gun Empl - uClass 254 01/030 to 12/046
This gun is missing its APHE in the game.
The penetration numbers for unit 435's APHE shell would be better than those for unit 079 Type 96 Howitzer (124mm at 250 yds) as barrel length, MV and shell weight are all larger.

Weapon 218/219 70mm Type 92 FH. HEAT for this gun becomes available April 43.
These units service dates straddle HEAT introduction date (April 43), so maybe duplicate these units to give a pre and post HEAT version.
244 - Armed Daihatsu - uClass 041 01/030 to 12/046
584 - INA 70mm InfGun - uClass 224 09/042 to 09/045
096 - Bunker - uClass 000 01/043 to 12/046
244, 096 have their HEAT Shells 584 is missing its HEAT Shells, 244 and 584 are missing their AP Shells.
If you bring 032 - 70mm Inf-Gun end service date back to 04/43 then this gives you a pre post HEAT duo with unit 089
032 - 70mm Inf-Gun - uClass 154 01/032 to 12/043
089 - 70mm Inf-Gun - uClass 154 04/043 to 12/046 correct introduction date already, has HEAT.
Both units are missing their AP shells
Units 263 and 266 have no HEAT or AP Shells, but should.
263 - Log Bunker - uClass 000 01/044 to 12/046
266 - Log Bunker - uClass 000 01/044 to 12/046
Penetration is 8 should be 9 American tests gave 70 but the tested shell was static and so performed worse because the copper lining had been shaped to adjust for the effects of spin.
HEAT ammunition is simple to manufacture and uses readily available materials, It can also double as a HE shell. Considering this and that as a front line gun, the 70mm howitzer was expected to serve in a AT role I would give these guns and the front line 75mm Battalion guns (wpns 36, 37 and 38) generous HEAT allocations.

There are two 57mm tank guns in the game.
Rikugun says a HEAT shell becomes available for these guns in Sept 44, but goes on to say "but It (HEAT Shells) does not appear to have been used in combat."
These units are OK as they expire before HEAT is issued.
Weapon 204 57mm Type 90
007 Type 89 Yi-Go 01/030 to 12/042
Weapon 214 57mm Type 97
008 Type 97 Chi-Ha 06/037 to 12/043
390 Type 89B Yi-Go 06/032 to 12/042
These units should have HEAT removed as service dates are before HEAT issued.
153 Type 97 Chi-Ha 09/042 to 04/044
410 Type 3 Ke-Ri 030 03/043 to 12/043
450 Type 89C Yi-Go 09/042 to 12/042
These have service dates that straddle the HEAT introduction date. All but the first unit have a HEAT allocation. So each unit could be split into 2 representing a pre and post HEAT version of the unit.
094 Type 97 Chi-Yu - uClass 037 06/043 to 12/046
095 Type 97 Chi-Ha - uClass 013 01/044 to 12/046
131 Type 4 Ke-Nu - uClass 012 01/044 to 12/046
154 Type 97 Chi-Ha - uClass 253 05/044 to 12/045
391 Type 89C Yi-Go - uClass 013 01/043 to 12/046
411 Type 4 Ke-Nu - uClass 106 01/044 to 12/046
451 Type 97 Chi-Ha - uClass 059 09/042 to 12/046

Rikugun gives service start date for for the 75mm type 88 AP ammunition as July 41.
This doesnt effect these units, though unit 899 has no AP ammunition.
Weapon 48 75mm Type 88
187 - 75mm Type 88 - uClass 158 Available 01/042 to 12/046
482 - 75mm Gun Empl - uClass 254 Available 01/045 to 12/046
899 - SS landing ship - uClass 041 Available 01/042 to 12/046
Unit 159 has AP issued but shouldnt have it until July 41 so maybe remove AP and give unit end date of July 41 and bring unit 187 (with AP) start date to July 41.
159 - 75mm Type 88 - uClass 158 Available 01/030 to 12/041

Handbook of Japanese explosive ordinance details a Japanese 47mm HEAT shell, but no penetration data, would probably be the same penetration as the Italian 47mm HEAT, see above. I can find no evidence these were ever issued.

If any of this needs clarification or further substantiation I am only too willing to oblige.
  #2  
Old February 20th, 2020, 02:41 PM
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Default Re: French Italian and Japanese ammunition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik View Post
Hello I hope this post finds you a bit rested.
*****I was more or less until this showed up.......


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik View Post
I turned up something interesting for Italian ammunition. Most Italian field guns are missing their HEAT Shells. The changes suggested here greatly improve Italian AT capabilities.



Weapon 19 47mm L32 Mod.35
Units with this weapon currently has no EP Shells.
Units 483, 485, 488, AS-42 CC-47, SPA 35 AS-47 and TL-37 AS-47 can have their EP ammuniton added as service start dates are after EP introduction date (Jan42).
I got as far as unit 483 then started to rapidly lose interest. You claim this would "greatly improve Italian AT capabilities"...... really ? The HEAT pen for the 47mm gun is LESS than the AP HEAT pen for that gun so putting HEAT rounds in would degrade Italian AT capability not improve it.

I will look this over and make any corrections I agree with as time allows. The French R/H 35 etc( and many other nations that used the former French tanks ) with the 100+50 ammo loads have all been changed but the Italians have enough problems in this game without taking away moderately effective AP rounds and replacing some of them with iffy HEAT rounds with lower pen ratings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik View Post
Units 591, 712, SMV L.40 47L32 and SMV L.40 47L32 can have their EP added, their service start date is after the EP introduction date.
you really do not understand how this game is put together. If you did you would know that Units 591, 712 are both little tankette SP guns with their main armament deliberately put in the last weapon slot.....WHERE THERE IS NO HEAT AMMO SLOT and, once again.. the AP ammo outperforms the EP ammo anyway
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Last edited by DRG; February 20th, 2020 at 03:08 PM..
  #3  
Old February 27th, 2020, 06:24 AM

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Default Re: French Italian and Japanese ammunition

Ok thanks for your consideration I will try to be more careful in future
  #4  
Old February 27th, 2020, 12:37 PM
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Default Re: French Italian and Japanese ammunition

There will be no "in future". I have already said last year I am done accepting suggestions that change the OOBs in this game so any future posts will be ignored. The ONE exception this year was the French Ammo loads for some tanks but that IS IT and the only reason they were changed is I found some OOB's already had the correct loads but the French ones didn't.
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Last edited by DRG; February 27th, 2020 at 12:44 PM..
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Old March 11th, 2020, 04:12 AM

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Default Re: French Italian and Japanese ammunition

I make the claim that these changes would greatly improve Italian AT capabilities because there are 32 Italian field pieces that don't have their HEAT ammunition and according to the references I have supplied would mostly move from having no HEAT to getting one third HEAT allocation.
Of the guns that do have their HEAT ammunition it is usually only 4 or 5 shells, a one third increase would increase that to 20 or so dual purpose HEAT shells.

As for 47mm HEAT penetrating being less than the regular AP penetration, true but only up to a certain range. Using weapon 21, 47mm L32 Mod.39 as a representative example this has AP pen of 6 and a HEAT pen of 5. So at ranges up to 200m yes the AP shell is better but from 250 to 550m they are equal and from 600m upwards the HEAT shell outperforms the AP shell. Also best HEAT is 8 and best AP is only 7. So its debatable whether including HEAT would be an improvement or not, and of course many of the 47mm guns in the game already do have their HEAT ammunition anyway. As to wether the change is an improvement or not, we also need to consider that the HEAT shell works against infantry and Armour. ie its dual purpose.

Similar situation for the Japanese, there is at least 6 Japanese guns missing their HEAT ammunition. And many others have a very small HEAT allocation

For units 591 and 712, SMV L.40 47L32, I don't understand why the 47mm gun is in slot 4 If you wanted to give this vehicle HEAT can't the gun just be moved to slot 1?
  #6  
Old March 11th, 2020, 08:19 AM
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Mobhack Mobhack is offline
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Default Re: French Italian and Japanese ammunition

The weapons in those tankettes are in slot 4 - which is the hull gun slot. This is described in Mobhack help in the weapons section IIRC. Nope, not all stug type vehicles have the main gun there, but the OOB designer for this OOB put the guns there for his own reasons. Since he's not about any l;onger - you cannot argue his choices with him here.

Nope, we are not going to shift main guns around just because you think it's a cool idea - it's not for the reasons outlined to you before.

- i.e. It buggers up all scenarios and save games using the changed unit resulting in loads of work to repair the scenarios, User campaigns etc for diddly-squat in terms of gains in game terms.

- The rounds are pretty useless in effectveness terms.

And since the release patch is currently being worked on right now then it's frozen for this year - there is no point in dumping change requests at the very last second in the release schedule. Not going to happen, even if approved, as otherwise everything needs to be retested and repackaged which is several days or a week or so of QA etc. Leave it till next year - and then make any change requests at a sensible time in the release shedule - like say around Xmas / New Years, not the last second.

Or as previously suggested to you - if you want an OOB that reflects your particular idiosyncrasies, then feel free to edit one using Mobhack yourself and place it in the Mods sub-forum. Unless you feel up to modifying each and every scenario and User Campaign that is borked by your changes and posting them alongside your modified OOB, then remember to advise users that it is for stand-alone games.
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Old March 11th, 2020, 09:18 AM
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DRG DRG is offline
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Exclamation Re: French Italian and Japanese ammunition

See post #4........now read it again

You did point out an issue that has been corrected though you did not spot it, I did. Japanese unit 184 should be using weapon 37 not 38 and that has been rectified and unit 157 now splits and has a few HEAT in 1945-46 not that it will make any impact on gameplay.

Now.....See post #4 and read it again

little tankette units with small main guns were put in as they are( slot 4 ) 20+ years ago and as Andy points out any scenario or save game that uses them as they are now would be borked if we changed it to the first slot and I see no reason to do so
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Last edited by DRG; March 11th, 2020 at 09:33 AM..
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